Jake Plummer was one win from the Super Bowl

[WisconsinCard]

Hey, I didn't see the game, so I'm mainly going on what I know about Jake, but when you put up stat lines like his, you'd better have lots and lots of help around you, which he certainly did. Jake is simply the kind of QB I hate. Unless you surround him with top-level talent, gameplan a system that babies him down to the smallest minutea (sp?), and take off all pressure, he'll lose a lot of the games he plays. He's a QB that can only rarely take the team on his back. Remember, most of his comebacks were from deficits he himself created. I want a QB that CAN carry his team, like Marino could. I mean, Marino had his team competing every year, with what exactly on offense to work with?

How many super bowls did he win? At least Jake srill has a chance to win the big one. No QB is that good without top flight talent surrounding them. Remember even Marino had top flight wide outs.

 

[Stout]

How many super bowls did he win? At least Jake srill has a chance to win the big one. No QB is that good without top flight talent surrounding them. Remember even Marino had top flight wide outs.

Marino had top-flight wideouts EARLY in his career, yes, but not forever. And take away any semblance of a running game, and how good will a lot of QBs be? Jake was and would be useless without a running game. Marino? Continually had his team in contention.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

He won't do it....if Manning can't handle the Blitzburgh defense.....Plummer will make a donkey out of himself. I'll be rooting against Jake vocally the whole time.

 

[Pariah]

I hope you are right Pariah but....the Broncos will be hard to beat in Denver and all of that thin air.

The altitude is really overrated, IMO. These guys are pro athletes--yeah, they'll get winded a little quicker, but they'll recover fast enough.

The reason Denver is good at home isn't because of the altitude--it's the home crowd. Those a-holes are loud!

 

[Redrage]

Regarding Jake: ".....I don't give a rats ass....."

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess if Chicago had won there'd a be a "Leon Joe is one win from the Super Bowl" we blew it on him thread too?

Jake played well but he had virtually no bearing on the Broncos getting ahead. All their scores were setup by the defense, and the one "drive" he led was the ridiculous PI call on Samuel.

I thought Jake did a really nice job with Denver hanging on, he moved the chains, made some nice decisions, made some plays, but Denver's defense won this game the same way ours won the Dallas playoff game in '98.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Where is the Jake Delhomme is 1 win from returning to the Super Bowl thread?? Or Roethlisberger...we coulda had him. We could have even had Hasselbeck.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

Exactly!

Well, I hear the Denver defense played so well, notice Anderson had two scoring runs, and then I take a look at Plummer's stat line, and I'm pretty sure they won IN SPITE of the Fake.

Denver Comp Att Yds Pct Y/A Sack YdsL TD Int
J. Plummer 15 26 197 57.7 7.6 2 7 1 1


Plummer is what he is: A weak-armed QB with legs, who often makes abysmal decisions, who can win IF and ONLY IF he has a complete complement of talent around him to hold him up by the bootstraps. Oh, he'll pull a win or two out of nowhere in a comeback, but it's usually in a game where he dug the hole all by his lonesome. He's average at best, and cannot lead a team to the Super Bowl. All Pittsburgh will have to do, if they play, is to force Plummer to bet them. And he won't.

Plummer has been re-taught by Shannahan to play like Trent Dilfer. Be conservative and don't screw things up. They told Jake to only look at half of the field plus they run the ball more than almost any other team. Denver is loaded with talent. I agree with you Stout, that they won because of the rest of the team. Jake cuts his ints down from 20+ last season to something like 7 this season and he goes to the pro bowl!! He gets paid like he's John Elway, but this year he's only improved to the level of Trent freakin' Dilfer.

 

[CardShark]

Plummer has been re-taught by Shannahan to play like Trent Dilfer. Be conservative and don't screw things up. They told Jake to only look at half of the field plus they run the ball more than almost any other team. Denver is loaded with talent. I agree with you Stout, that they won because of the rest of the team. Jake cuts his ints down from 20+ last season to something like 7 this season and he goes to the prow bowl!! He gets paid like he's John Elway, but this year he's only improved to the level of Trent freakin' Dilfer.

You are sooo wrong about Plummer. You let your disdain for him blind you to the fact that he is a top gun QB. We haven't had a quality QB, until Warner, since Jake left. It just so happens that Denver plays to his strengths unlike the Cards who tried to rebuild him into something he's not. I think it was Herm Edwards that just said a coach is a fool if he doesn't coach to his players strengths instead of trying to make the players fit his system. We had alot of fools trying to coach Jake. With all of that misdirection, it had to scramble his thought process. Now we are seeing the way Jake should've been coached. He doesn't even have top flight receivers around him. Smith is old and Lelie is average. Imagine if Denver had Boldin and Fitz. Throw in a quality receiving tightend. Sure Denver has a running game, but their backs are not the same caliber of Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis. Their line does a great job, but when it breaks down Jake has a gift for scrambling. Another thing is Denver doesn't redesign their offense every year like the Cards have been up to this point. The threat of the run helps Plummer, yet the threat of Plummer rolling out helps their run game. I would venture to say their offense is balanced.

Shame on you Stout for calling Plummer out when you didn't even see the game. It was a very defensive game. When Liverpool wins 1 - 0, do you automatically say their offense stunk? I bet you probably attribute it to a good defensive game.

 

[Pariah]

We haven't had a quality QB, until Warner, since Jake left.

So it only took us two years to replace him? You make it sound like Plummer has been gone for decades. 2 years between quality QBs isn't that bad--Especially for AZ!

 

[Cardsmasochist]

You are sooo wrong about Plummer. You let your disdain for him blind you to the fact that he is a top gun QB. We haven't had a quality QB, until Warner, since Jake left. It just so happens that Denver plays to his strengths unlike the Cards who tried to rebuild him into something he's not. I think it was Herm Edwards that just said a coach is a fool if he doesn't coach to his players strengths instead of trying to make the players fit his system. We had alot of fools trying to coach Jake. With all of that misdirection, it had to scramble his thought process. Now we are seeing the way Jake should've been coached. He doesn't even have top flight receivers around him. Smith is old and Lelie is average. Imagine if Denver had Boldin and Fitz. Throw in a quality receiving tightend. Sure Denver has a running game, but their backs are not the same caliber of Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis. Their line does a great job, but when it breaks down Jake has a gift for scrambling. Another thing is Denver doesn't redesign their offense every year like the Cards have been up to this point. The threat of the run helps Plummer, yet the threat of Plummer rolling out helps their run game. I would venture to say their offense is balanced.

Shame on you Stout for calling Plummer out when you didn't even see the game. It was a very defensive game. When Liverpool wins 1 - 0, do you automatically say their offense stunk? I bet you probably attribute it to a good defensive game.

I still have my doubts about Plummer. Let's see how he does against the Steelers on Sunday and then maybe I'll change my mind. (or maybe I'll say let's see how he does in the Super Bowl if they win...

 

[Russ Smith]

You are sooo wrong about Plummer. You let your disdain for him blind you to the fact that he is a top gun QB. We haven't had a quality QB, until Warner, since Jake left. It just so happens that Denver plays to his strengths unlike the Cards who tried to rebuild him into something he's not. I think it was Herm Edwards that just said a coach is a fool if he doesn't coach to his players strengths instead of trying to make the players fit his system. We had alot of fools trying to coach Jake. With all of that misdirection, it had to scramble his thought process. Now we are seeing the way Jake should've been coached. He doesn't even have top flight receivers around him. Smith is old and Lelie is average. Imagine if Denver had Boldin and Fitz. Throw in a quality receiving tightend. Sure Denver has a running game, but their backs are not the same caliber of Terrell Davis or Clinton Portis. Their line does a great job, but when it breaks down Jake has a gift for scrambling. Another thing is Denver doesn't redesign their offense every year like the Cards have been up to this point. The threat of the run helps Plummer, yet the threat of Plummer rolling out helps their run game. I would venture to say their offense is balanced.

.

Well the Cards kept trying different offenses but Jake kept screwing it up. The reason is Jake can't function without a great run game and we never had one.

As for if he had Fitz and Boldin, if Jake threw the ball here as much as Warner and Josh did, he'd still throw 20 + picks a year, he did that last year in Denver when he threw the ball more, why do you think his attempts were down significantly this year, they ran the ball more for a reason. Yes Jake would put up a lot of yardage with Fitz and Boldin but he'd still throw a ton of picks because in a wide open passing game that's what he does. He had a higher completion % this year but his YPA fell a full half yard, the way that happens is simple, shorter routes because most of his mistakes were going downfield. Now he only throws downfield when they have single coverage.

He's vastly improved but I can't help but think if he'd have bothered to join offseason workouts and watch film, he might have been a better player for us than he was?

I just don't see the difference between Thomas Jones saying he wasn't happy coming here and Jake admitting he didn't work nearly as hard here as he does in Denver? Why is Jones the antichrist and Jake is a saint?

 

[CardShark]

So it only took us two years to replace him? You make it sound like Plummer has been gone for decades. 2 years between quality QBs isn't that bad--Especially for AZ!

It does seem like forever watching Leon and Josh QB this team.

 

[Zeno]

Call it sour grapes or whatever, I never want to see Plummer win a single game let alone the Super Bowl...whoever Denver plays with possibly the exception of Dallas I cheer for the opponent.

Go Pittsburgh.

 

[CardShark]

Well the Cards kept trying different offenses but Jake kept screwing it up. The reason is Jake can't function without a great run game and we never had one.

They kept trying to turn him into a pocket passer. Jake is at his best when he can move. Even without the run game, Jake helped us into the playoffs. Every team in the league knew Jake was our only threat and they gameplanned for it. Take that, the coaches trying to take him out of his element, a league worst o-line, a field of mediocre runningbacks, losing his top receiving threat in Boston, one year of absolutely no receivers, one year of playing injured, a new offensive system or coach almost yearly and the helpless feeling of having to do it all himself over the course of his tenure here and it's bound to make a good QB look bad and make some bad decisions.
Why is Plummer admired by alot of Cardinal fans? Because he was always our best chance to win the game, even when he had so much going against him and he NEVER backed down from the challenge. He also never ripped Arizona. As far as the "I don't give a rats ass" comment, that was about being booed, not directed at the fans.
Why is Plummer attacked by other Cardinal fans? Probably because they can't admit that it's the team they support that has been so screwed up and it's easier to lay the blame at the feet of a certain player, especially if that player is no longer here.
Did Denver simplify their offense for Plummer? To some extent, yes. Was it because he is an idiot? No. It was because the Cardinals warped his frame of mind so much that they had to deprogram him. They had to keep telling him that he doesn't have to do it all himself. He doesn't have to run for his life anymore, but rather by design. Does that make him a Trent Dilfer? No. Jake can still take over a game. He is a dangerous weopon when he steps on the field. Do you think coaches relish the thought of saying "Make Plummer beat us"? They know he can. Especially if he gets better receivers.

 

[CardinalChris]

Jake is finally playing within himself, and he can because he has talent around him. He played well in 98 when we had talent around him. It was time to part ways, so no looking back. I actually wish Jake well and enjoy seeing him do well. He didn't "get away" from us, he reinvented himself. Even the announcers make a distinction between "Arizona Jake" and Jake now. That speaks volumes for Shanahan and Jake's transformations, not our decision.

 

[Russ Smith]

They kept trying to turn him into a pocket passer. Jake is at his best when he can move. Even without the run game, Jake helped us into the playoffs. Every team in the league knew Jake was our only threat and they gameplanned for it. Take that, the coaches trying to take him out of his element, a league worst o-line, a field of mediocre runningbacks, losing his top receiving threat in Boston, one year of absolutely no receivers, one year of playing injured, a new offensive system or coach almost yearly and the helpless feeling of having to do it all himself over the course of his tenure here and it's bound to make a good QB look bad and make some bad decisions.
Why is Plummer admired by alot of Cardinal fans? Because he was always our best chance to win the game, even when he had so much going against him and he NEVER backed down from the challenge. He also never ripped Arizona. As far as the "I don't give a rats ass" comment, that was about being booed, not directed at the fans.
Why is Plummer attacked by other Cardinal fans? Probably because they can't admit that it's the team they support that has been so screwed up and it's easier to lay the blame at the feet of a certain player, especially if that player is no longer here.
Did Denver simplify their offense for Plummer? To some extent, yes. Was it because he is an idiot? No. It was because the Cardinals warped his frame of mind so much that they had to deprogram him. They had to keep telling him that he doesn't have to do it all himself. He doesn't have to run for his life anymore, but rather by design. Does that make him a Trent Dilfer? No. Jake can still take over a game. He is a dangerous weopon when he steps on the field. Do you think coaches relish the thought of saying "Make Plummer beat us"? They know he can. Especially if he gets better receivers.

We didn't use the rollouts like they do but it's a myth that the Cards told Jake not to run. Trestman said it repeatedly, and Jake said it too, we encourage Jake to run more when there isn't an open guy, they wanted to cut down on his picks and that was one way to do it.

We were running a WCO because conventional wisdom was Jake was the "next Montana" and the WCO was the offense for him. That never made sense he's not an accurate passer so why play an offense that demands accuracy? But everyone was sure that was the right offense for him.


the question people seem to ignore with Jake, why is it not on him that he didn't work harder when he was here? If Jones saying he didn't want to play here upsets people why does nobody blink an eye when Jake said on his first day of offseason workouts with Denver "I'm so excited to get started it's like a kid moving up from junior high to highschool." I don't see the difference in Jones saying nobody in the draft wanted to be picked by us and jake suggesting we're "junior high"?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

the question people seem to ignore with Jake, why is it not on him that he didn't work harder when he was here? If Jones saying he didn't want to play here upsets people why does nobody blink an eye when Jake said on his first day of offseason workouts with Denver "I'm so excited to get started it's like a kid moving up from junior high to highschool." I don't see the difference in Jones saying nobody in the draft wanted to be picked by us and jake suggesting we're "junior high"?

I've said before that I can't totally blame Jake for being a slacker here because the organization was a complete joke. Why out your butt on the line if the people you're working for are not doing their part? As far as why Jake gets a free pass after he left unlike guys like Simeon and TJ, I'm guessing it has something to do with where they attended college and other factors I don't want to delve into.

 

[CardShark]

We didn't use the rollouts like they do but it's a myth that the Cards told Jake not to run. Trestman said it repeatedly, and Jake said it too, we encourage Jake to run more when there isn't an open guy, they wanted to cut down on his picks and that was one way to do it.

We were running a WCO because conventional wisdom was Jake was the "next Montana" and the WCO was the offense for him. That never made sense he's not an accurate passer so why play an offense that demands accuracy? But everyone was sure that was the right offense for him.


the question people seem to ignore with Jake, why is it not on him that he didn't work harder when he was here? If Jones saying he didn't want to play here upsets people why does nobody blink an eye when Jake said on his first day of offseason workouts with Denver "I'm so excited to get started it's like a kid moving up from junior high to highschool." I don't see the difference in Jones saying nobody in the draft wanted to be picked by us and jake suggesting we're "junior high"?

By saying pocket passer, that's what I meant. They didn't do roll outs for him and yes they wanted him to run a WCO. That by definition meant staying in the pocket and hitting quick short passes. How can you tell him to do that and at the same time tell him to run. It doesn't work in the WC. I wish people would stop trying to find the next Montana. It's unfair to any QB out there, especially as the game continues to evolve.

Jake knew he was taking a step up to a higher level by going to the Broncos. We all did. The difference with Jake is that he tried to get the Cards to that same level while he was here and as in true Bidwillian fashion the Cards resisted every step of the way. The Broncos showed Jake what it was like to work for a true contender whereas the Cards have never been shown themselves. Jones on the other hand gave up on draft day and rode out his tenure. Jake at least showed respect to the Cards and fans by taking out a full page in the paper to express his grattitude to the Cards, fans and Arizona in general for his time here. No other player for the Cards has ever done that. Another thing, he's never demanded to be traded. If Shannahan and Elway can look at Plummer and say he's still got a chance to be great, why can't you? I guess they see something that you don't.

 

[bigredjane]

Guess what?

I think I would kill to see him with a Q and Fitz receiver corp.

Jake was never our problem it was coaching and surrounding him with talent.

And guess what, Denver doesn't seem to worry about who is the backup. We didn't either when he was here. Because it doesn't matter you won't see him anyway.

Denver has an excellent back up in Brandlee VanPelt he is a burner! I for one love to watch him play! I'm so happy for Jake.

 

[Russ Smith]

By saying pocket passer, that's what I meant. They didn't do roll outs for him and yes they wanted him to run a WCO. That by definition meant staying in the pocket and hitting quick short passes. How can you tell him to do that and at the same time tell him to run. It doesn't work in the WC. I wish people would stop trying to find the next Montana. It's unfair to any QB out there, especially as the game continues to evolve.

Jake knew he was taking a step up to a higher level by going to the Broncos. We all did. The difference with Jake is that he tried to get the Cards to that same level while he was here and as in true Bidwillian fashion the Cards resisted every step of the way. The Broncos showed Jake what it was like to work for a true contender whereas the Cards have never been shown themselves. Jones on the other hand gave up on draft day and rode out his tenure. Jake at least showed respect to the Cards and fans by taking out a full page in the paper to express his grattitude to the Cards, fans and Arizona in general for his time here. No other player for the Cards has ever done that. Another thing, he's never demanded to be traded. If Shannahan and Elway can look at Plummer and say he's still got a chance to be great, why can't you? I guess they see something that you don't.

Montana and Young were "pocket passers?" They played in the same offense that we hired Trestman to install for Jake. There's no question the Cards wanted Jake to be more PRODUCTIVE from the pocket but to say they told him to sit in the pocket is not true. THey didn't go to the rollout style Denver has but how many NFL teams run that style of offense for their QB? Most can't, Denver has found a way to make it work.

Can you give me examples of how Jake "tried to get the Cards to that same level"? I can certainly list examples of things Jake did NOT do while here that may have improved the team:

1) Attend offseason conditioning
2) Watch gamefilm
3) Take less money to allow the team to sign other players

I think Jake is a very likable guy, but he's now twice in Denver adjusted or restructured his contract to give them caproom(deferring part of his roster bonus this year), in ARizona he took a record bonus, announced he didn't really need that much, and then stood by and watched Miller, Brown and Centers go to other teams over contracts that we basically lost on signing bonus.

He keeps admitting over and over how much harder he works now in Denver I just don't see how that equates to trying to raise the level of the team in Arizona?

I'm not sure what the demand a trade thing is about, did Jones demand one?

 

[Duckjake]

who can win IF and ONLY IF he has a complete complement of talent around him to hold him up by the bootstraps. Oh, he'll pull a win or two out of nowhere in a comeback, but it's usually in a game where he dug the hole all by his lonesome. He's average at best, and cannot lead a team to the Super Bowl. All Pittsburgh will have to do, if they play, is to force Plummer to beat them. And he won't.

You could say that about almost every QB who ever played.

They all need a complete compliment of talent(or a totally dominant defense) to win one.

Montana and Young had the greatest receiver of all time. Aikman had all kinds of offensive weapons. So did Warner. Brady was the beneficiary of one of the all best "systems" ever devised. Elway didn't win until the Broncos developed their awesome system for rushing the football.

The only guy I can think of who could be said to have lead his team to a Super Bowl is maybe Brett Farve but even he benefited from the NFL's #1 ranked defense in '96.

 

[Pariah]

Denver has an excellent back up in Brandlee VanPelt he is a burner! I for one love to watch him play! I'm so happy for Jake.

Van Pelt is never going to be a good NFL QB. He can't pass.

 

[CardShark]

Montana and Young were "pocket passers?" They played in the same offense that we hired Trestman to install for Jake. There's no question the Cards wanted Jake to be more PRODUCTIVE from the pocket but to say they told him to sit in the pocket is not true. THey didn't go to the rollout style Denver has but how many NFL teams run that style of offense for their QB? Most can't, Denver has found a way to make it work.

Can you give me examples of how Jake "tried to get the Cards to that same level"? I can certainly list examples of things Jake did NOT do while here that may have improved the team:

1) Attend offseason conditioning
2) Watch gamefilm
3) Take less money to allow the team to sign other players

I think Jake is a very likable guy, but he's now twice in Denver adjusted or restructured his contract to give them caproom(deferring part of his roster bonus this year), in ARizona he took a record bonus, announced he didn't really need that much, and then stood by and watched Miller, Brown and Centers go to other teams over contracts that we basically lost on signing bonus.

He keeps admitting over and over how much harder he works now in Denver I just don't see how that equates to trying to raise the level of the team in Arizona?

I'm not sure what the demand a trade thing is about, did Jones demand one?

Of course Montana and Young were pocket passers.

I don't know where Jake did his offseason conditioning.
I'l bet you anything he watched game film, maybe not to the extenet that he does in Denver.
Jake offered to take less money if it meant keeping his playoff team together and Bill Bidwill Jr. told him no.

So what if he works harder in Denver! It's what they expect of him. The Cards didn't. Everyone was always talking about how this had been a country club atmosphere until Dennis Green got here. Jake was in a system that didn't expect players to work hard on conditioning in the offseason. As Jake talked to other players in the league about how they did things, he tried to bring those things here.
It was kind of like driving a car though. You can teach yourself to some extent, you can pick up advice and ideas and then go out on the road and hope you don't crash, but it doesn't equal having an instructor. It's the instructor that determines how you practice. Then you need to have a well maintained car. Even then it's the type of car you have and the pit crew behind it that determines whether you go NASCAR or bomber races. Plummer was trying to drive a bomber without a pit crew on the NASCAR circuit.

Alot of players rode out their time here or looked to be traded or releasesd.

 

[Duckjake]

I've said before that I can't totally blame Jake for being a slacker here because the organization was a complete joke. Why out your butt on the line if the people you're working for are not doing their part? As far as why Jake gets a free pass after he left unlike guys like Simeon and TJ, I'm guessing it has something to do with where they attended college and other factors I don't want to delve into.

I would say the #1 "factor" is 1998.

I've always been a big Plummer fan since the Pittsburgh game where Jake scrambled, was clobbered by a Pitt defender at the sideline, bounced off and completed a pass for a first down.