Jake Plummer was one win from the Super Bowl

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If you ASU homers had read the entire thread, you'd see that I did blme those who ran the team and even let Jake somewhat off the hook for being lazy all those years. Yeah the problems on those teams were mainly on the coaching staff and ownership for their idiotic decision-making and frugality, but Jake's work ethic certainly didn't do anything to overcome the situation.

As the leader of the team, local hero, and highest paid player he could have taken the responsibility of trying to rally his team no matter what the circumstances. He chose not to and while I can't totally blame him for it considering the circumstances, he also shouldn't get a free pass. Blame for for those horrific years of football should be shouldered by all; ownership, players, coaches, etc. etc.

 

[Stout]

Didnt the sexual harassment/fondling thing end up getting dropped? Yes, Jake did throw more picks than TDs, but my point was, it seemed like he always wanted to win. He was surrounded by crap, coached by crap, owned by crap- and surprise, he played like crap. However, he certainly didn't just seem to be here for the retirement package or the warm weather like a lot of people who have played for us.

Jake admitted, ADMITTED, that he slacked off in the offseason, stayed away from workouts, didn't watch as much film as he should have, and was fairly lackadaisical. No matter what the TEAM did, Jake's attitude was unacceptable. Yeah, he changed his attitude when he left. Whoopdie-frickin'-do!

 

[Pariah]

The Broncos scored 24 of their points on Saturday off of turn overs and with some help from a phantom PI call. Yeah, they "caused" 4 of the TO's, but they got a little lucky, too.

Combine the fact that the ball was most certainly bouncing their way with the fact that they'll be playing a defense that caused Manning to look like Eli than Peyton and I don''t see the Broncos winning this one.

Plus, like someone else said, call it sour grapes or what you will, but I don't want to see a guy that admittedly didn't work hard enough here to get to the next level--I don't care what the reason.

And, I really, really dislike Bronco fans.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree 100%! All these anti Jake idiots ought to go jump in a lake. Jake was a very good player for ASU and the Cards, and always went all out- thats certainly more than you can say for 95% of the players that have ever worn the Arizona Cardinals uniform. I'd take 11 guys w/ the heart of Jake Plummer any day.

For the rest of Denvers run Ill be wearing one of my 3 Plummer jerseys (ASU Rose Bowl season home and away, and Cardinals away, autographed) and cheering for the Broncos.

This is a direct quote from Jake in 2003 about his first experience in offseason workouts with Denver.

"It's just exciting to be training here where we work out at, where we're putting the work in the offseason, where we practice," Plummer said. "I haven't had that in the past. It was there for me (at Arizona), but I didn't want to participate. It wasn't as well-done as it was here."

How's that for a guy who always went "all out" ? This is just one instance, the first I think, where jake admitted he was criticizing workouts that he never actually attended.

And yes I believe our workouts probably were not as well done as Denvers but again people keep saying (on this thread) that Jake was committed and he tried to change this team for the better but I see no evidence of it. Note, Jake didn't say the workouts weren't well done and I couldn't convince them to change, he said "I didn't want to participate. It wasn't as well done as it was here."

I wouldn't call it hatred, but yeah it really ticks me off to hear people constantly giving Jake a free pass because of coaching when even he admits he didn't put it any effort to change either himself or the situation he was in.

 

[duckfallas]

You must really not like Plummer if he still pisses you off 3 years after he's gone. I hope he gets a ring this year. He should get some hardware to go along with all of the money he's made in this league.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

You must really not like Plummer if he still pisses you off 3 years after he's gone. I hope he gets a ring this year. He should get some hardware to go along with all of the money he's made in this league.

I had to put up with him for 10 years. Never liked the guy. People telling me he was the next Montana and what not. Sorry, I've never bought his hype. 2 winning seasons out of 10 is nothing to build a statue to.

It'll probably take me another century to lose my fury for him.

I have issues.

(6-5 seasons at ASU are not winning seasons...this program is a constant underachiever)

 

[Russ Smith]

You must really not like Plummer if he still pisses you off 3 years after he's gone. I hope he gets a ring this year. He should get some hardware to go along with all of the money he's made in this league.

I just don't see why people constantly say Jake gave all this effort but was dragged down by the franchise and lack of talent around him. Yes Denver is a better organization but Jake freely admits he didn't make the effort, and yet people who defend him consistently say he did.

And yes, it does still bother me because we keep hearing how none of this was on Jake. If people could separate Jake the ASU hometown hero and Jake the ex Cards QB they'd see that a large reason he failed here was he didn't put in the effort to get better.

 

[duckfallas]

Look at what Plummer had to work with from a coaching standpoint. How many OC's did he have while he was here? Maybe part of the reason he didn't put in the offseason work or get better was because his coaches were leaving or getting fired every year. As far as the offseason, I didn't see many other players putting in the effort in that area under the clipboard and cheerleader regimes. Could the guy have put forth more effort to get better? Sure. But you can say that for every player, coach, and front office lackey for that same period. I don't see why Plummer should get singled out.

 

[Pariah]

But you can say that for every player, coach, and front office lackey for that same period. I don't see why Plummer should get singled out.

Plummer doesn't get singled out. Nobody likes anyone who leaves AZ after lackluster performance.

Freddie Jones
LJ Shelton
Thomas Jones
Jamir Miller
Marcus Bell
...the list of semi-high profile players goes on and on that AZ fans don't like.

If you can think of an excepton, there's probably a reason: they actually DID give it their all when they were here (ie: Ronnie Mac, Anneas Williams).

 

[Russ Smith]

Look at what Plummer had to work with from a coaching standpoint. How many OC's did he have while he was here? Maybe part of the reason he didn't put in the offseason work or get better was because his coaches were leaving or getting fired every year. As far as the offseason, I didn't see many other players putting in the effort in that area under the clipboard and cheerleader regimes. Could the guy have put forth more effort to get better? Sure. But you can say that for every player, coach, and front office lackey for that same period. I don't see why Plummer should get singled out.

I don't see how Jake is being singled out when there's an entire thread about why Thomas Jones is the antichrist because he didn't give 100% when he was here. I asked that in this thread, why is Jones bad and Jake good and the general answer was Jake tried to make things better, Jones didn't.



While I may agree that Jake tried harder than Jones did(remember Jones was injured off and on his whole time here I have no idea how that factored into his play), the fact is Jake didn't put it in the work off field to get better that's required to be a good NFL QB these days. A lot of people want to blame that on the coaches and OC's but the fact is, when a high paid QB plays poorly you keep the QB, and fire the OC and or head coach. The reason Jake played for 2 coaches and 4 OC's in his Cardinal career was in large part because Jake played so poorly he got them fired. So saying look how many coaches he had is a circular explanation for his lack of work ethic when he was here.

We're just going to have to disagree on Jake, in my mind paying a guy the money we paid Jake we had every reason to expect him to put in more effort than he admits he put in.

 

[Duckjake]

While I may agree that Jake tried harder than Jones did(remember Jones was injured off and on his whole time here I have no idea how that factored into his play),

We need to have an all-time crappy attitude team.

Boston,Swann,Mark Smith,Wendall Bryant,Thomas Jones,Simeon Rice,Freddie Jones,Duane Starks, Pete Kendall..............

 

[Russ Smith]

We need to have an all-time crappy attitude team.

Boston,Swann,Mark Smith,Wendall Bryant,Thomas Jones,Simeon Rice,Freddie Jones,Duane Starks, Pete Kendall..............

.

Swann is a perfect example of trying to make things better, he got blasted one year for not working out with the team and explained that he needed access to specific equipment the Cards didn't have, so the Cards decided to buy the equipment and put it in their weight room. Instead of just saying the Cards workout room was bad and refusing to show up, he worked out on his own and worked on convincing the team to upgrade their equipment.

All that while playing for years with no cartilage in either knee.

Never understood the trashing of Swann, very few Cardinal players in history played with more pain than that guy did and people called him Erica?

 

[ajcardfan]

.

Never understood the trashing of Swann, very few Cardinal players in history played with more pain than that guy did and people called him Erica?

He was never able to live down the fact he missed a game due to a dislocated pinky.

 

[conraddobler]

I know what Jake said and it wasn't good. I think though you have to realize the mentality he was dealing with at the time.

This was his first team straight out of college so you get here, he loves to play, chomped at the bit but he had zero role models of how a real team and more importantly a real NFL QB operates.

You add that to the fact all the other QB's stank and he faced little or no competition and it isn't suprising what happened. There are very special players who just know what needs to be done to win in the NFL and do it.

Jake isn't really that type, he's going to require much more coaching and structure than that.

To give him his due though he played here in the dark ages of player discontent, and while he got his money everyone around him didn't and got traded away or cut.

Trestman was probably about the worst possible candidate to teach Jake, they are just so different as people I don't think Jake ever connected with him at all and mostly heard, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

 

[WisconsinCard]

I know what Jake said and it wasn't good. I think though you have to realize the mentality he was dealing with at the time.

This was his first team straight out of college so you get here, he loves to play, chomped at the bit but he had zero role models of how a real team and more importantly a real NFL QB operates.

You add that to the fact all the other QB's stank and he faced little or no competition and it isn't suprising what happened. There are very special players who just know what needs to be done to win in the NFL and do it.

Jake isn't really that type, he's going to require much more coaching and structure than that.

To give him his due though he played here in the dark ages of player discontent, and while he got his money everyone around him didn't and got traded away or cut.

Trestman was probably about the worst possible candidate to teach Jake, they are just so different as people I don't think Jake ever connected with him at all and mostly heard, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

Ageed, and (I am not here to give JP a pass) , but he never had a mentor. He had no competition, and if we had a coach worth his salt, he would have benched him. I guarentee DG wouldnt put up with that crap.

 

[HooverDam]

My point about Jakes effort was strictly about what I saw on the field. I dont attend the practices, or pretend to know all the behind the scenes BS that goes on w/ the Cards.

And I dont think Jake said "I never went to off season practices." It sounds like what he was saying was: I went to the Cards off season practices, it was a joke, so I didnt go anymore. Now, thats not the right attitude to have, I agree, but, its understandable. Think of it this way:

Jake was stuck in what amounts to a dead end job. He was surrounded by crappy players, bad ownership, poor coaching, lacking facilities, etc. So if his off season work ethic was lack luster, its certainly not shocking.

Jake did need a mentor, he probably felt like he could do no wrong being the local hero. Like I said earlier, going to Denver was best for Jake and the Cardinals. No one in Denver will give him a free pass, and the Cardinals could move on and try to find a QB that they dont feel pressured to start or over pay.

 

[AZBALLER]

And yes, it does still bother me because we keep hearing how none of this was on Jake. If people could separate Jake the ASU hometown hero and Jake the ex Cards QB they'd see that a large reason he failed here was he didn't put in the effort to get better.

And also, all the UA fans and Cards appologists couldn't see that Jake gave the Cards the best season they had in 50 years with the same ownership that sucked a$$...not to mention that people like Lomas Brown wanted to protect Jake; and Larry centers wanted to block and catch passes from Jake, and Rob Moore loved having a quality qb...Take the blindfolds off!!!

Don't make this an ASU-UA debate, every coach and scout in the NFL has given you the finall answer...Except for the Cards.

 

[BACH]

Uh, no. I'm not willing to bank on it just yet. I think you'll see a short passing game from pittsburgh that will take away the effectiveness of Denver's pass rush with a sprinkling of Willie Parker up the middle and Denver will have a lot of points scored on them.

I also think the Pittsburgh defense will bring so much pressure on Jake that we'll see enough glimpses of the Jake of old (not a lot, but enough) that he'll be said to have had a bad game--probably despite throwing for about 225 and a TD or two.

I'm not saying it's a lock that Pittsburgh will win; Denver is very, very hard place to play. But, I like their chances.

Agree. I still think Denver is a small favorite, because they're playing on homefield, but I like Pittsburghs chances.

The Steelers are one of the only teams that are able to shut down Denver's running game with their regular defense, which puts more pressure on Jake. I'm convinced that the Steeler D will keep Denver's O to about the same production as the Patriots D did last week.

The question then becomes if Denver's D is able to get the Ben and the Steeler offense out of sync as they did with the Patriots.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Don't make this an ASU-UA debate, every coach and scout in the NFL has given you the finall answer...Except for the Cards.

Yeah, since Russ is such an avid Arizona fan.

 

[Russ Smith]

Trestman was probably about the worst possible candidate to teach Jake, they are just so different as people I don't think Jake ever connected with him at all and mostly heard, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

Trestman has always kept his mouth shut about his time here but you used to hear comments that made it clear Trestman just really had problems with Jake's lack of work ethic. It finally came out in an article Mortenson wrote a few years ago, I think after the signing of Jake in Denver. He said that Trestman had become so frustrated with Jake because he continually made the same mistakes and was uncoachable, that Trestman actually advised the Cards to expose Jake in the franchise draft one year(either Cleveland or Houston forget which) and that's why Trestman got fired. He basically told them we're paying the guy a ton of money, we're not getting production or effort to improve, the best way to get out of his contract is the franchise draft.

Not saying Trestman was right but it kind of explains just how different they were. Here's a guy who in his last job was coaching Steve young at the peak of his career, and now he's coaching a guy who can't grasp the offense and who apparently didn't put in nearly enough effort to learn the offense. Not surprised it didn't work. Trestman seems to be a guy who can only be effective when he has experienced guys around him, like in Oakland, where he can concentrate on schemes and not have to worry about teaching the players what to do. Olson seemed to be much better at that IMHO.

 

[Russ Smith]

My point about Jakes effort was strictly about what I saw on the field. I dont attend the practices, or pretend to know all the behind the scenes BS that goes on w/ the Cards.

And I dont think Jake said "I never went to off season practices." It sounds like what he was saying was: I went to the Cards off season practices, it was a joke, so I didnt go anymore. Now, thats not the right attitude to have, I agree, but, its understandable. Think of it this way:

ACtually he did admit more than once he never attended off season conditioning programs. The ones Green is now preaching are so critical to team building. The first one he went to in Denver he came out and said boy this is a first rate organization this thing is so much better than what we had in Arizona, and then added that he never actually participated in Arizona but from what he heard it wasn't close to what Denver had.

I don't think we're talking practice I think we're talking weight training, conditioning etc. I never heard any suggestion that Jake was skipping voluntary camps or things like that.

 

[Russ Smith]

And also, all the UA fans and Cards appologists couldn't see that Jake gave the Cards the best season they had in 50 years with the same ownership that sucked a$$...not to mention that people like Lomas Brown wanted to protect Jake; and Larry centers wanted to block and catch passes from Jake, and Rob Moore loved having a quality qb...Take the blindfolds off!!!

Don't make this an ASU-UA debate, every coach and scout in the NFL has given you the finall answer...Except for the Cards.

I'm a UCLA fan.

I just think if Jake Plummer had played for UCLA or Boise State or Miami, there'd be far less people defending his Cardinal career.

 

[BirdMan21]

Russ- you are probably right. But I still see Jake as the man who brought us our lone Cardinals Playoff Victory. For that reason I will root for him...and as I said earlier I am happy he is no longer on this team, because unless he is surrounded by talent that can make up for his shortcomings he will be unable to win consistantly. He is a great QB in that system, he would not put up the same numbers here...and I dont think you will find anyone who feels he would.

GO JAKE! GO BRONCOS!

 

[kerouac9]

And also, all the UA fans and Cards appologists couldn't see that Jake gave the Cards the best season they had in 50 years with the same ownership that sucked a$$...not to mention that people like Lomas Brown wanted to protect Jake; and Larry centers wanted to block and catch passes from Jake, and Rob Moore loved having a quality qb...Take the blindfolds off!!!

Don't make this an ASU-UA debate, every coach and scout in the NFL has given you the finall answer...Except for the Cards.

You're kidding right? In saying that Jake "gave us" the best season in 50 years? #1, the NFL schedule-makers "gave" us that season by handing out the easiest schedule in NFL history, followed by the defense. The offense in 1997/8 stank.

 

[MadBird]

The first one he went to in Denver he came out and said boy this is a first rate organization this thing is so much better than what we had in Arizona, and then added that he never actually participated in Arizona but from what he heard it wasn't close to what Denver had.

I don't think we're talking practice I think we're talking weight training, conditioning etc.

Is there a connection to what teams do in the off season (like these "conditioning" programs) and INJURIES during the season? It seems like the Cards are often hit with much worse injury situations than other teams, could this be a reason? And if so, why wouldn't teams just model each other in this area? why would one team do this so much better than another???
is it a cost issue? do teams pay out extra for this?