Jalen Smith

[Mainstreet]

Kind of irrelevant AFAIC.

You seem to be convinced that they skimped on Jalen so they could pay Shamet and I don't see it that way. Had Smith shown anything they would have paid him. Maybe it would have kept us from going after Shamet but I doubt the reverse is true. We needed a backup guard but not as much as we needed another big man, if Smith showed that he could fill that position we'd have jumped to extend him IMO.

I think we should have given him more opportunities but I understand why we didn't, we were in win-now mode. His development was hampered by Covid and an injury and let's face it, he was pretty bad when we tried going the G League route with him to try and get him some real PT. So, things didn't work out and that's too bad. I just don't see it as this huge mistake that so many are now framing it as. It was a judgement call and it was not without merit at the time.

I thought it was relevant because you were using a RealGM poster as a source.

Yes, I do think the Suns skimped on Jalen to pay Landry. Btw, I hope it works out for Landry but MLE money is a lot to pay for him.

The Suns really gave up on Smith after his first season because the Suns were showcasing him for a trade in summer league.

Now when the Suns are forced to play Stix at center, his true position, he shows his talent.

A couple of things.

First, when the Suns draft a raw player, one season is not enough time for him to develop his skills especially without sufficient playing time.

Second, a team can't play a player out of position and expect immediate results.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought it was relevant because you were using a RealGM poster as a source.

Yes, I do think the Suns skimped on Jalen to pay Landry. Btw, I hope it works out for Landry but MLE money is a lot to pay for him.

The Suns really gave up on Smith after his first season because the Suns were showcasing him for a trade in summer league.

Now when the Suns are forced to play Stix at center, his true position, he shows his talent.

A couple of things.

First, when the Suns draft a raw player, one season is not enough time for him to develop his skills especially without sufficient playing time.

Second, a team can't play a player out of position and expect immediate results.

First off, I wasn't using a Realgm poster as a source, I was crediting a Realgm poster for quoting a source. Big difference. Personally, I dislike it when posters bring things to this board from other sites and don't give the other site or the original poster credit. I don't read RGM very often but when I do, I try to acknowledge them for anything I then bring to this forum.

And while it seems obvious now that Smith is better suited for center, he barely has the size of a forward and that's the position he played in college.

You've mentioned many times that this team should be in win now mode. Well, not being willing to lose games to develop someone like Smith is part of the cost of going for it all. And the report about him not performing well in practice seals the deal AFAIC.

We say he's raw and should have expected this but he didn't look that raw in college. And knowing what we do about JJ, I suspect he expected a much more NBA ready player than he turned out to be.

Maybe some of the rawness we've seen was due to the early injury and Covid but whatever the case, we were on a mission to go as far as possible in the playoffs and decided many months ago that Jalen wasn't likely to contribute towards that goal.

 

[Mainstreet]

First off, I wasn't using a Realgm poster as a source, I was crediting a Realgm poster for quoting a source. Big difference. Personally, I dislike it when posters bring things to this board from other sites and don't give the other site or the original poster credit. I don't read RGM very often but when I do, I try to acknowledge them for anything I then bring to this forum.

And while it seems obvious now that Smith is better suited for center, he barely has the size of a forward and that's the position he played in college.

You've mentioned many times that this team should be in win now mode. Well, not being willing to lose games to develop someone like Smith is part of the cost of going for it all. And the report about him not performing well in practice seals the deal AFAIC.

We say he's raw and should have expected this but he didn't look that raw in college. And knowing what we do about JJ, I suspect he expected a much more NBA ready player than he turned out to be.

Maybe some of the rawness we've seen was due to the early injury and Covid but whatever the case, we were on a mission to go as far as possible in the playoffs and decided many months ago that Jalen wasn't likely to contribute towards that goal.

If you had credited Kellan Olson directly I wouldn't have mentioned it. It's more about how the information arrived. A link would have been nice nice for context. Actually I tried looking it up but couldn't find it. I'm not doubting it's out there though.

The Suns do carry a 15 man roster so I think they can allow one spot for a rookie, especially one that can play.

Playing a player out of position will usually result in bad results in practice or a game.

Personally all I wanted the Suns to do is pick up Jalen Smith's contract option because he flashed his talent before they had to make that decision.

 

[Chaplin]

Personally all I wanted the Suns to do is pick up Jalen Smith's contract option because he flashed his talent before they had to make that decision.

When was that? Show me where he flashed his talent. And Summer League doesn't count.

 

[Raze]

I think the important thing when considering Smith's situation to trust in the old adage "It takes longer for big men to develop". We've seen this a few times here recently.

DeAndre Ayton (how many gave up on him too early?)
Richaun Holmes (13ppg/8rpg/1.3bpg since he left)
Damian Jones (who has looked surprisingly adequate in his last 4 games: 10ppg/8rpg in 23mpg )

We've seen it elsewhere:

Rudy Golbert didn't average a double double until his 4th year.
Jokic didn't until his 3rd year (but still looked good early)
Bam Adebayo didn't until his 3rd year.

While we don't know if a guy is going to become the next Rudy Golbert or the next Alex Len, I think it's important to be patient with big men. (... or don't draft a big man, let him develop elsewhere, and then sign him to a cheap FA contract his 4th year).

 

[Finito]

When was that? Show me where he flashed his talent. And Summer League doesn't count.

When he was 5 star recruit and a McDonals high school all American

or when he was an all American at Maryland and was on the Big10 all defense team and got drafted in the NBA lottery.

This is turning into a joke. He’s literally in his second season. Whatever happened to letting a project develop

 

[Mainstreet]

When he was 5 star recruit and a McDonals high school all American

or when he was an all American at Maryland and was on the Big10 all defense team and got drafted in the NBA lottery.

This is turning into a joke. He’s literally in his second season. Whatever happened to letting a project develop

Also when Jalen Smith was given minutes in preseason, he showed he could play on the NBA level.

 

[Chaplin]

When he was 5 star recruit and a McDonals high school all American

or when he was an all American at Maryland and was on the Big10 all defense team and got drafted in the NBA lottery.

This is turning into a joke. He’s literally in his second season. Whatever happened to letting a project develop

We are a championship team. By definition we don’t have the time to let a project develop. Especially ata position of need. We need to fill that with someone who can play.

He probably has a place in the NBA. That’s the problem with you apologists—you think when we talk about him not being a good player for the suns you think it means not a good player for the NBA. He might thrive on a younger team, but not here.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

We are a championship team. By definition we don’t have the time to let a project develop. Especially ata position of need. We need to fill that with someone who can play.

He probably has a place in the NBA. That’s the problem with you apologists—you think when we talk about him not being a good player for the suns you think it means not a good player for the NBA. He might thrive on a younger team, but not here.

If you want to sustain your position at the top of the league for an extended period of time than you need to figure out how to simultaneously develop young talent while also winning games.

Obviously that doesn't mean force feeding minutes to the possible detriment of the team, but keeping those projects on the roster until they are either ready to contribute or until you are sure they aren't going to develop. Obviously if the player has trade value that changes things a bit, but by all accounts Smith doesn't really have trade value.

 

[Chaplin]

If you want to sustain your position at the top of the league for an extended period of time than you need to figure out how to simultaneously develop young talent while also winning games.

Obviously that doesn't mean force feeding minutes to the possible detriment of the team, but keeping those projects on the roster until they are either ready to contribute or until you are sure they aren't going to develop. Obviously if the player has trade value that changes things a bit, but by all accounts Smith doesn't really have trade value.

He’s got to be worth it. Up until now he hasn’t been. Maybe that changes, but his history prior to these last 3 games says otherwise.

 

[Finito]

We are a championship team. By definition we don’t have the time to let a project develop. Especially ata position of need. We need to fill that with someone who can play.

He probably has a place in the NBA. That’s the problem with you apologists—you think when we talk about him not being a good player for the suns you think it means not a good player for the NBA. He might thrive on a younger team, but not here.

Oh I’m not an apologist for this team at all. You are the one that thinks this front office can do no wrong. From Ayton to Smith to Sarver everything from you is the same.

We drafted him knowing he’s a project. Then don’t draft him.

 

[Finito]

If you want to sustain your position at the top of the league for an extended period of time than you need to figure out how to simultaneously develop young talent while also winning games.

Obviously that doesn't mean force feeding minutes to the possible detriment of the team, but keeping those projects on the roster until they are either ready to contribute or until you are sure they aren't going to develop. Obviously if the player has trade value that changes things a bit, but by all accounts Smith doesn't really have trade value.

I can think of The Spurs drafting Kawhi and developing him

Look at what the Warriors are doing with all those young draft picks.

 

[Finito]

He’s got to be worth it. Up until now he hasn’t been. Maybe that changes, but his history prior to these last 3 games says otherwise.

Everybody had responded and pointed out why he has been you just choose to ignore those post and doubling down on your stance

 

[Chaplin]

Oh I’m not an apologist for this team at all. You are the one that thinks this front office can do no wrong. From Ayton to Smith to Sarver everything from you is the same.

We drafted him knowing he’s a project. Then don’t draft him.

Huh? You are quite possibly the worst debater I’ve ever seen. I have never said the front office can do no wrong. You make things up to support your flawed reasoning.

 

[Finito]

Huh? You are quite possibly the worst debater I’ve ever seen. I have never said the front office can do no wrong. You make things up to support your flawed reasoning.

Oh I’m a master debater

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can think of The Spurs drafting Kawhi and developing him

Look at what the Warriors are doing with all those young draft picks.

Contenders develop rookies all the time. The idea that teams can’t do both at the same time is pretty unfounded. The Spurs did it in their Duncan days with Parker. Even The Suns did it with the Barkley teams with Dumas, Oliver Miller, Wes Person. None of those guys were even lotto picks. The Bulls back in the day in their first run developed BJ Armstrong and Stacey King when they were contenders. The Lakers Shaq/Kobe teams developed Tyrone Lue as a rookie. The Celtics played Big Baby Davis and that tiny dude who reminds me of Kevin Hart back in KG days.

And that’s just quickly off the top of my head.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He looked good in summer league i thought too. I dont really understand why hes been just premantently dog housed…

I think it’s because he’s not going to play over Ayton or mcgee and he can’t hit the three effectively enough to play alongside them. Everyone should understand that he’s put up these numbers essentially as the Ayton/mcgee replacement. He’s playing the position they typically play. Is he playing it well? Better than expected,obviously. But enough to eat minutes from them? Likely not. We just don’t play two bigs unless one can hit the three (like crowder). That’s why he doesn’t get minutes. Could he if Ayton or mcgee get into foul trouble in the future? Absolutely looks like it.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't see an argument where we didn't give up on Smith too soon. A raw player that that in his rookie season played on a contending team with far better options... Before his second season even started we decided not to commit to his future contract... in year 2 he has been pressed into service and looks like an actual NBA player, not a stud but certainly a rotation player and someone that I suspect will be considered a bargain on the ~5 million we would have owed him next season.

I cannot fathom another contending team giving up on cheap potential so rapidly.

We declined his contract because Bob Sarver is a cheap, impatient, suck ass owner. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't see an argument where we didn't give up on Smith too soon. A raw player that that in his rookie season played on a contending team with far better options... Before his second season even started we decided not to commit to his future contract... in year 2 he has been pressed into service and looks like an actual NBA player, not a stud but certainly a rotation player and someone that I suspect will be considered a bargain on the ~5 million we would have owed him next season.

I cannot fathom another contending team giving up on cheap potential so rapidly.

We declined his contract because Bob Sarver is a cheap, impatient, suck ass owner. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is simply nothing but conjecture. You want to blame someone for being short sighted blame James Jones.

Server is a sucky owner, but he has his hands in the Ayton contract far more than Jalen freaking Smith.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think it’s because he’s not going to play over Ayton or mcgee and he can’t hit the three effectively enough to play alongside them. Everyone should understand that he’s put up these numbers essentially as the Ayton/mcgee replacement. He’s playing the position they typically play. Is he playing it well? Better than expected,obviously. But enough to eat minutes from them? Likely not. We just don’t play two bigs unless one can hit the three (like crowder). That’s why he doesn’t get minutes. Could he if Ayton or mcgee get into foul trouble in the future? Absolutely looks like it.

All I asked is for the Suns to pick up Smith's option for one more season to see what they have.

I really do believe Smith can play the 4 possibly as early as next season. He is simply not there yet in his development.

If Smith remains a center, I think the Suns could have traded him for something of value since he has shown he has NBA skills. He has less trade value now because he is essentially an expiring contract.

 

[Finito]

That is simply nothing but conjecture. You want to blame someone for being short sighted blame James Jones.

Server is a sucky owner, but he has his hands in the Ayton contract far more than Jalen freaking Smith.

See

Perfect example here you go coming to Sarvers rescue again.

 

[AzStevenCal]

See

Perfect example here you go coming to Sarvers rescue again.

So, do you think Monty wanted to keep him and JJ wanted to keep him but Sarver said no, dump him and let's spend twice as much on Shamet so that I can save a small fraction of the money I'm looking at spending? I'm having trouble following the logic here.

My guess, and it's just that, is that if Monty and JJ were dead set against letting Jalen go, we would have extended him instead of trying so hard to trade him. Sarver makes the final call on money decisions but that doesn't mean he doesn't do it without input from other key people (Monty, JJ etc.).

 

[Mainstreet]

So, do you think Monty wanted to keep him and JJ wanted to keep him but Sarver said no, dump him and let's spend twice as much on Shamet so that I can save a small fraction of the money I'm looking at spending? I'm having trouble following the logic here.

My guess, and it's just that, is that if Monty and JJ were dead set against letting Jalen go, we would have extended him instead of trying so hard to trade him. Sarver makes the final call on money decisions but that doesn't mean he doesn't do it without input from other key people (Monty, JJ etc.).

It's related to what we were talking about before. We agree James Jones and Monty Williams made the decision not to pick up the option on Jalen Smith. However, I do think the money allocated to Landry Shamet played a significant role.

 

[Chaplin]

It's related to what we were talking about before. We agree James Jones and Monty Williams made the decision not to pick up the option on Jalen Smith. However, I do think the money allocated to Landry Shamet played a significant role.

We obviously don’t agree because Finitoo is placing the blame solely at Sarver.

And me saying it’s James Jones is supporting Sarver as an owner. Right.

 

[Proximo]

He’s got to be worth it. Up until now he hasn’t been. Maybe that changes, but his history prior to these last 3 games says otherwise.

He never got meaningful minutes till the last 3 games, unless you are counting summer league.