Joey Porter unlikely to return to Cardinals

[ARodg]

I watched a similar lineup get gashed on third and 12 for first down runs over and over last season.

I don't see Schofield as Haggans replacement. He is to replace Porter as the speed rusher. We need a guy like Acho or Beal to move in to Haggans spot. I just don't see how any 3-4 defense could operate with both OLB spots played by smaller speed rushers. Teams with big backs would kill us and we'd see 10-12 games a year like the 2009 Carolina game.

That shouldn't happen, even if there's only 1 D-Lineman and small Backers. That's either a scheme problem or a lack of talent. I'm hoping Horton will address both issues.

 

[Duckjake]

That shouldn't happen, even if there's only 1 D-Lineman and small Backers. That's either a scheme problem or a lack of talent. I'm hoping Horton will address both issues.

Sure it is a scheme problem. If you are running out a group of 4 240lb linebackers with only a couple of 290lb Dlinemen in front of them teams will simply steamroll you.

Green Bay tried that 2-4-5 defense against Arizona in the playoffs and the Cards ran for over 150 yards. And Arizona wasn't exactly a rushing power house ranking 28th that season in rushing yards.

 

[ARodg]

Sure it is a scheme problem. If you are running out a group of 4 240lb linebackers with only a couple of 290lb Dlinemen in front of them teams will simply steamroll you.

Green Bay tried that 2-4-5 defense against Arizona in the playoffs and the Cards ran for over 150 yards. And Arizona wasn't exactly a rushing power house ranking 28th that season in rushing yards.

Do you want me to say that the 2-4-5 isn't bad against the run? Obviously it is. By very definition it's bad against the run, because you're replacing a D-Lineman with a CB. I'm not advocating running it the entire game, just on obvious passing downs.

Teams don't hand the ball up the middle on 3rd and 12s and if they do the LBs and safeties need to be competent enough to make a play. They don't need to stop the RB at the line, a gain of six or seven is just fine in that situation.

One of the staples in the Dick Lebeau defense is that you can't cover everything or you leave yourself too spread out and can't stop anything. I'm advoctaing leaving the D a little bit thin up front on obvious passing downs in order to get more pressure on the QB which is how defense is played in today's NFL.

 

[Duckjake]

Do you want me to say that the 2-4-5 isn't bad against the run? Obviously it is. By very definition it's bad against the run, because you're replacing a D-Lineman with a CB. I'm not advocating running it the entire game, just on obvious passing downs.

Teams don't hand the ball up the middle on 3rd and 12s and if they do the LBs and safeties need to be competent enough to make a play. They don't need to stop the RB at the line, a gain of six or seven is just fine in that situation.

One of the staples in the Dick Lebeau defense is that you can't cover everything or you leave yourself too spread out and can't stop anything. I'm advoctaing leaving the D a little bit thin up front on obvious passing downs in order to get more pressure on the QB which is how defense is played in today's NFL.

Which is exactly why more and more teams are going to bigger backs. It is the evolution of the game. You try and play your defense on third and long and your LBs are going to get moved out by my Offensive linemen who outweigh them by 50lbs and your DBs are going to get run over by my 235lb RB and he'll get 15 yards not 7 or 8. I watched it happen to the Cardinals over and over last season.

 

[ARodg]

Which is exactly why more and more teams are going to bigger backs. It is the evolution of the game. You try and play your defense on third and long and your LBs are going to get moved out by my Offensive linemen who outweigh them by 50lbs and your DBs are going to get run over by my 235lb RB and he'll get 15 yards not 7 or 8. I watched it happen to the Cardinals over and over last season.

What's the solution then??

Williams doesn't get any pass rush. Branch isn't much better. Campbell isn't as heavy as he's listed at 300lbs. Dockett is capable of playing both but even he's barely 290.

I can't even name 5 guys that are over 300 lbs who get to the QB. Raji, Suh and Ngata off the top of my head are the only elite 3-down DTs, and at this point Ngata is a DE.

The truth of the matter is that players need to make plays. A LB needs to read and react quickly, get to a hole before the O-Lineman gets to him. Or somebody in the front 7 needs to beat their man. Having LBs who are only outweighed by 35 lbs instead of 50 isn't that big of a change. The defense needs to have the heart and skill to make something happen. The Packers don't have a MLB over 250 lbs and both Barnett and Bishop are under 240. Farrior and Timmons aren't 250 either, and the Steelers lead the league in rushing defense.

 

[Duckjake]

What's the solution then??

Williams doesn't get any pass rush. Branch isn't much better. Campbell isn't as heavy as he's listed at 300lbs. Dockett is capable of playing both but even he's barely 290.

I can't even name 5 guys that are over 300 lbs who get to the QB. Raji, Suh and Ngata off the top of my head are the only elite 3-down DTs, and at this point Ngata is a DE.

The truth of the matter is that players need to make plays. A LB needs to read and react quickly, get to a hole before the O-Lineman gets to him. Or somebody in the front 7 needs to beat their man. Having LBs who are only outweighed by 35 lbs instead of 50 isn't that big of a change. The defense needs to have the heart and skill to make something happen. The Packers don't have a MLB over 250 lbs and both Barnett and Bishop are under 240. Farrior and Timmons aren't 250 either, and the Steelers lead the league in rushing defense.

The answer is to not have only two defensive linemen on the field. So what if teams have 240 or 250lb LBs you put 9 guys out there at 250 or less and I'll just run right over you.

 

[ARodg]

The answer is to not have only two defensive linemen on the field. So what if teams have 240 or 250lb LBs you put 9 guys out there at 250 or less and I'll just run right over you.

And all of a sudden there's no pass rush because Williams and Branch aren't getting to the QB.

I'd rather take my chances with the other team running for 12 yards then giving a QB a day and a half to pick on a secondary with weak corners.

 

[Duckjake]

And all of a sudden there's no pass rush because Williams and Branch aren't getting to the QB.

I'd rather take my chances with the other team running for 12 yards then giving a QB a day and a half to pick on a secondary with weak corners.

Well don't have weak corners. Brady had all day to throw against the Jets and couldn't find anyone open.

What I am trying to say is the game is starting to move back the other way now from the passing league it has been for the past few years. Offensive Coordinators are starting to adjust to the nickel and dime formations by running big backs against those lighter formations. A team like the Cardinals with weak tackling secondaries are especially vulnerable to the run plays with bigger backs on third and long.

Almost every time the Cards ran the defense with Dockett and Campbell as the only two Defensive linemen our opponents simply ran the ball for a first down.

That is one reason I would like to see at least one bigger OLB like Beal or Acho. Just like the Steelers have Woodley at 6'2" 265 and just drafted the 6'1" 260lb Worilds. Meanwhile the Cards are running out guys 6'4" 240 and 6'2" 230.

 

[ARodg]

QBs and Recievers are too good to cover for any significant length of time. The only way to disrupt a good passing offense is to consistently get pressure. There's a reason that the teams that gave up the fewest points also had the most sacks.

And having an OLB that's big doesn't do too much good if he can't rush the passer. Dockett, Campbell, and Schofield being the only competent pass rushers is a one way ticket to Andrew Luck.

 

[Duckjake]

QBs and Recievers are too good to cover for any significant length of time. The only way to disrupt a good passing offense is to consistently get pressure. There's a reason that the teams that gave up the fewest points also had the most sacks.

And having an OLB that's big doesn't do too much good if he can't rush the passer. Dockett, Campbell, and Schofield being the only competent pass rushers is a one way ticket to Andrew Luck.

Since when does being 260 keep you from being a good pass rusher? Woodley? Ware? Suggs? Hali? Having an OLB at any weight in a 3-4 isn't any good if he can't rush the passer.

Dockett, Campbell, Schofield, Washington, Haggans, Wilson and maybe a rookie like Acho or Beal and we have plenty of pass rushers. Oh yeah and don't forget Mike Adams.

 

[Hypothesis]

I hate the 4-2-5 on passing downs. It places a huge need on the rarest players in football. IE DTs who are good against the pass. There are really only a handful of guys in the entire NFL that fit that category. Dockett is one such guy, the issue is that Williams isn't. If he was he'd be a probowl level player and he's just not.

There's a reason that the best Defenses are going more to a 2-4-5 on passing downs.

Steelers go with two Antonio Smith/Ziggy Hood/Brett Kesel based on health. They then move up one or both of Harrison and Woodley to give the look of a 3/4 man front.

Packers go with Cullen Jenkins and BJ Raji, while moving up Clay Matthews.

If by 4-2-5 Horton means that Campbell and Dockett will be playing in the middle and he will walk up Schofield and the new OLB than that's fine and great. If he means that Dan williams is in on passing downs, that's not so great.

Regardless I think that Houston fits that role better than anybody. He's had experience with his hand down and playing upright and was excellent at both. He's not undersized and is stout against the run.

Campbell-Williams-Dockett

Schofield-X-Washington-Houston

I think is good enough against the run. Especially if the X is replaced with Nick Barnett, and not somebody undersized.

---------------------------------------------------------

Schofield-Campbell-Dockett-Houston

Barnett-Washington

Looks okay to me on blatantly obvious passing downs.

The 2-4-5 is nothing more than a variant of the 4-2-5 where 2 LBers play up on the line from a 2 point stance. It's the same personnel with the same responsibilities and most teams, Pittsburgh included, refer to it as a 4-2-5 regardless if there are only 2 down linemen. Most teams will vary whether the OLBs put their hand in the ground or not in an attempt to disguise their intent.

It requires 2 quick penetrating DT's who generally shoot the B Gaps to provide pocket contain, 4 linebackers...3 of which generally drop into intermediate coverage while the fourth generally rushes and 5 DB's to cover. There are varying calls that can send 2 LBs, a LB and a DB or any other combination of rushers.

As for our personnel, our down linemen would probably consist of Dockett and Campbell, both of whom are able to penetrate on a pretty consistent basis. Couple that with Campbell's tall frame and his long arms, he's been pretty good and knocking passes down quite regularly. Dan Williams wouldn't be on the field just as Pittsburgh pulls Hampton.

Our Lbs, just as in our 3-4, will need to be upgraded. Washington would be inside and hopefully an upgrade at the other inside position. O'brien Schofield who is looking to get back up closer to 250lbs would probably be one on the outside and hopefully someone such as Robert Quinn though I think Haggans would get the nod over a rookie.

We need to get bigger and more athletic on defense and start weening away from our older guys who have lost a step. Our LBs have plenty of experience, but they just can't keep up with half the league anymore. We'll have a hard time stopping anyone out of any formation if we don't drastically improve our LB corps.

 

[Catfish]

Every year one of Graves big FA signings from the previuos year is cut. This year it's Porter. No one should be surprised. Everybody but the Cards FO knew the guy was done.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There is a better than even chance that there will be no CBA before the deadline. With no CBA, there will be NO FA, or TRADE periods. That would almost make keeping all our current FA's on board, (especially one who knows Horton's scheme).

 

[ARodg]

The 2-4-5 is nothing more than a variant of the 4-2-5 where 2 LBers play up on the line from a 2 point stance. It's the same personnel with the same responsibilities and most teams, Pittsburgh included, refer to it as a 4-2-5 regardless if there are only 2 down linemen. Most teams will vary whether the OLBs put their hand in the ground or not in an attempt to disguise their intent.

It requires 2 quick penetrating DT's who generally shoot the B Gaps to provide pocket contain, 4 linebackers...3 of which generally drop into intermediate coverage while the fourth generally rushes and 5 DB's to cover. There are varying calls that can send 2 LBs, a LB and a DB or any other combination of rushers.

As for our personnel, our down linemen would probably consist of Dockett and Campbell, both of whom are able to penetrate on a pretty consistent basis. Couple that with Campbell's tall frame and his long arms, he's been pretty good and knocking passes down quite regularly. Dan Williams wouldn't be on the field just as Pittsburgh pulls Hampton.

Our Lbs, just as in our 3-4, will need to be upgraded. Washington would be inside and hopefully an upgrade at the other inside position. O'brien Schofield who is looking to get back up closer to 250lbs would probably be one on the outside and hopefully someone such as Robert Quinn though I think Haggans would get the nod over a rookie.

We need to get bigger and more athletic on defense and start weening away from our older guys who have lost a step. Our LBs have plenty of experience, but they just can't keep up with half the league anymore. We'll have a hard time stopping anyone out of any formation if we don't drastically improve our LB corps.

This is exactly what I'm saying. 2-4-5 is the same as 4-2-5 except for some reason he's afraid we're going to get run on on 3rd and 12 for some reason.

 

[kerouac9]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There is a better than even chance that there will be no CBA before the deadline. With no CBA, there will be NO FA, or TRADE periods. That would almost make keeping all our current FA's on board, (especially one who knows Horton's scheme).

It just means that we'll wait until a new CBA is in place after the draft, IMO. The NFL isn't going to force teams to pay the likes of Joey Porter and Gerald Hayes contracts of $4 million or more in 2011 just because there wasn't a FA period.

In all likelihood we'll see a two-week period after the CBA is signed, then a shortened FA period, then a shortened training camp (2-3 weeks), then 1 preseason game, then a 14-game season (15 weeks total).

If there isn's a CBA by October 1st, it'll be very possible there will be no football at all this season.

 

[Hypothesis]

This is exactly what I'm saying. 2-4-5 is the same as 4-2-5 except for some reason he's afraid we're going to get run on on 3rd and 12 for some reason.

I just didn't understand your earlier comment that you didn't like the 4-2-5 and there's a reason the best defenses are going to the 2-4-5. You kind of implied they were quite different.

As for teams running over us, they were. I don't have the stat sheets in front of me but I'd be willing to bet we allowed more 3rd down and long conversions to the run than just about any other team. Part of that is due to scheme, having players out of position, and due to players lacking in fundamentals, but it was also due to our poor and undersized LBer corps. We need to bulk up and play more physical. No more undersized guys.

LB is where we're really hurting. We have promising young talent in Schofield and Washington but they have to get stronger and we need to add a 260-270lb guy that can hold up in run support as well.

 

[Rats]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There is a better than even chance that there will be no CBA before the deadline. With no CBA, there will be NO FA, or TRADE periods. That would almost make keeping all our current FA's on board, (especially one who knows Horton's scheme).

Great point Catfish. Have to hang on to these guys and utilize them properly. They know what they are doing and Training camp will show if they have gas left in the tank. I think they do.

 

[az jam]

Porter could be back if he takes a pay cut. No way will the Cards pay him $5.75 million in 2011.

 

[joeshmo]

What I am trying to say is the game is starting to move back the other way now from the passing league it has been for the past few years. Offensive Coordinators are starting to adjust to the nickel and dime formations by running big backs against those lighter formations. A team like the Cardinals with weak tackling secondaries are especially vulnerable to the run plays with bigger backs on third and long.

???

NFL Passing attempts:

2008 - 16526
2009 - 17033
2010 - 17269

NFL Running attempts:

2008 - 14119
2009 - 14088
2010 - 13920

NFL Pass to Run Ratio:

2008 - 53.9/46.1
2009 - 54.7/45.3
2010 - 55.4/44.6

I see no reason why that trend wont occur again in 2011. A trend that has been getting higher despite a lack of QB talent in the NFL that last 4-5 years.

 

[joeshmo]

Porter could be back if he takes a pay cut. No way will the Cards pay him $5.75 million in 2011.

It is a total of 6 mill if you include his 250k workout bonus.

I am starting to think the Cards may eat that contract and let him stay one more year as a favor to Horton. Just another guy to help tech his defense, and Horton implying in some interviews that he wasn't used correctly, and talking about Porter being the first guy to give him a call after he was hired. It will be interesting see what they do with him now.

I think they will try a pay cut with a way to make it back in incentives before they cut him now.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't have the stat sheets in front of me but I'd be willing to bet we allowed more 3rd down and long conversions to the run than just about any other team.

I dont have 3rd and long stats either but out of all rushing plays 23.4% of them were for first down. Surprisingly we weren't even in the bottom 10. I would of thought we were in the bottom 3 minimum. Some pretty good defenses who held teams under 20 points a game were worse or just as good as us - Falcons, Patriots, Bears, Tampa. Just goes to show even the best defenses will have weaknesses.

 

[Chopper0080]

It is a total of 6 mill if you include his 250k workout bonus.

I am starting to think the Cards may eat that contract and let him stay one more year as a favor to Horton. Just another guy to help tech his defense, and Horton implying in some interviews that he wasn't used correctly, and talking about Porter being the first guy to give him a call after he was hired. It will be interesting see what they do with him now.

I think they will try a pay cut with a way to make it back in incentives before they cut him now.

This would be the best for both parties in my opinion.

 

[AZCardsWin]

This would be the best for both parties in my opinion.

I agree 100%. With this off-season bound to be shortened, having a veteran like J.Porter around to help implement Horton's defense would be a huge advantage for the Cardinals. Additionally if Porter just plays the passing downs I think he can get 10 sacks. Mods change the title of this thread to "Lets keep Joey Porter in 2011!"

~Tim in NJ

 

[Duckjake]

???

NFL Passing attempts:

2008 - 16526
2009 - 17033
2010 - 17269

NFL Running attempts:

2008 - 14119
2009 - 14088
2010 - 13920

NFL Pass to Run Ratio:

2008 - 53.9/46.1
2009 - 54.7/45.3
2010 - 55.4/44.6

I see no reason why that trend wont occur again in 2011. A trend that has been getting higher despite a lack of QB talent in the NFL that last 4-5 years.

Just watch. It is just starting. Smaller defenses will be countered more and more by big backs.

In addition just moving to having the bigger running backs as a weapon against defenses like the 2-4-5 doesn't necessarily mean there will be a drop in the number of pass attempts or a change in the pass/run ratios. So those stats really don't mean anything in this context.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree 100%. With this off-season bound to be shortened, having a veteran like J.Porter around to help implement Horton's defense would be a huge advantage for the Cardinals. Additionally if Porter just plays the passing downs I think he can get 10 sacks. Mods change the title of this thread to "Lets keep Joey Porter in 2011!"

~Tim in NJ

I think that the with the potential lockout the need for vet players will be high. I am not sure that Porter will ever be a 10 sack guy again, but I think that he can contribute as a pressure player which we need as many as we can get. Also, if he can help shorten the learning curve for Schofield that would be tremendous.

 

[Buckybird]

Just watch. It is just starting. Smaller defenses will be countered more and more by big backs.

In addition just moving to having the bigger running backs as a weapon against defenses like the 2-4-5 doesn't necessarily mean there will be a drop in the number of pass attempts or a change in the pass/run ratios. So those stats really don't mean anything in this context.

Duck, unless you're the Arizona Cardinals. We continue to throw more despite not having a viable NFL QB.