Jonathon Cooper

[kerouac9]

Behind LT, I view C as the 2nd most important position on the offensive line. They set the protections, identify blitzers, and are responsible for transitioning double teams at point of attack to single blocks which allow OGs to shift to the second level. Vegas actually values C as the 2nd most important position when adjusting betting lines.

I think that this is a mis-read, for a couple of reasons.

1) The qualities of a great center that you're talking about are largely mental, not physical. You can find a ton of atheltically limited players that can do the jobs you describe at a high level without burning a Top 10 pick on one.

2) I think you're confusing overall value and value over replacement when you cite the vegas lines. The #2 center on most teams are the 7th or 8th best offensive lineman overall. If you have a Pro Bowl center, you have an even LARGER drop off if he goes down, especially because teams usually have a 5th lineman that could start at 3 or 4 other positions.

The difference between the #1 center in the NFL and the #20 center in the NFL (basically, value over average), is significant, but not profound. The difference between the #20 center in the NFL and the #50 center in the NFL (value over replacement) IS profound.

 

[crisper57]

I think that this is a mis-read, for a couple of reasons.

1) The qualities of a great center that you're talking about are largely mental, not physical. You can find a ton of atheltically limited players that can do the jobs you describe at a high level without burning a Top 10 pick on one.

2) I think you're confusing overall value and value over replacement when you cite the vegas lines. The #2 center on most teams are the 7th or 8th best offensive lineman overall. If you have a Pro Bowl center, you have an even LARGER drop off if he goes down, especially because teams usually have a 5th lineman that could start at 3 or 4 other positions.

The difference between the #1 center in the NFL and the #20 center in the NFL (basically, value over average), is significant, but not profound. The difference between the #20 center in the NFL and the #50 center in the NFL (value over replacement) IS profound.

That is so true. The Center is basically the QB for the line. The other four guys are depending on him to set the blocks. His physical attributes are less important, though it doesn't hurt if he can withstand a straight charge by the D. The shortest path to the QB is over the Center's backside.

 

[oaken1]

That is so true. The Center is basically the QB for the line. The other four guys are depending on him to set the blocks. His physical attributes are less important, though it doesn't hurt if he can withstand a straight charge by the D. The shortest path to the QB is over the Center's backside.

true....the actual combination of mental accuity along with the physical talent and ability to actually be the point of attack is a rare find.....which is I believe why there a few centers in this draft who are so well regarded

 

[kerouac9]

true....the actual combination of mental accuity along with the physical talent and ability to actually be the point of attack is a rare find.....which is I believe why there a few centers in this draft who are so well regarded

It's effectively impossible for the center to be the "point of attack" in any offense. The action of snapping the ball and then getting up and engaging with a defender makes this functionally impossible. Guards and tackles are at such an advantage.

Especially when you think that a center can't get his feet into the best place to maintain effective leverage, because the quarterback needs a beat to get into his dropback.

 

[Chopper0080]

Man I hate taking a Guard that early in the first.
However it's the safest pick for the new front office. They need their first pick to be an immediate starter and Cooper or Warmack could be penciled in from day one. If we are stuck at 7 and the 3 OTs are gone and Jordan is gone then I think Cooper or Warmack is the pick.

I find this very funny. Why would anyone hate drafting a player who plays a position that contributes to it's respective unit on every play. A player that plays in every situation and can't be schemed out of a game. A player that doesn't depend on any other position to be productive.

Yes, you can find OGs later in the draft at a higher rate than other positions, but it still isn't doesn't have a high percentage of success.

 

[Totally_Red]

I find this very funny. Why would anyone hate drafting a player who plays a position that contributes to it's respective unit on every play. A player that plays in every situation and can't be schemed out of a game. A player that doesn't depend on any other position to be productive.

Yes, you can find OGs later in the draft at a higher rate than other positions, but it still isn't doesn't have a high percentage of success.

The more I contemplate Jonathan Cooper the more I like the pick. He's a guy that can actually get to the second level and block linebackers. And with Navarro Bowman, Bobby Wagner, James Laurinitas and Patrick Willis in the NFC West that is an attribute that is very important IMO.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think that this is a mis-read, for a couple of reasons.

1) The qualities of a great center that you're talking about are largely mental, not physical. You can find a ton of atheltically limited players that can do the jobs you describe at a high level without burning a Top 10 pick on one.

2) I think you're confusing overall value and value over replacement when you cite the vegas lines. The #2 center on most teams are the 7th or 8th best offensive lineman overall. If you have a Pro Bowl center, you have an even LARGER drop off if he goes down, especially because teams usually have a 5th lineman that could start at 3 or 4 other positions.

The difference between the #1 center in the NFL and the #20 center in the NFL (basically, value over average), is significant, but not profound. The difference between the #20 center in the NFL and the #50 center in the NFL (value over replacement) IS profound.

Yes, I guess I didn't specify enough. Vegas values C 2nd only to QB in terms of line adjuments DUE TO INJURY.

 

[crisper57]

I find this very funny. Why would anyone hate drafting a player who plays a position that contributes to it's respective unit on every play. A player that plays in every situation and can't be schemed out of a game. A player that doesn't depend on any other position to be productive.

Yes, you can find OGs later in the draft at a higher rate than other positions, but it still isn't doesn't have a high percentage of success.

Yeah, a receiver touches the ball 10-15 times a game. A pass-rusher may only be on the field for half the defensive snaps. A running back may only get 20-30 touches. But OL will be impacting every single play the offense runs. Other than QB's, you really can't say that about a lot of other players.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

I read a scout's take on Cooper that he has a skill set comparable to Randall McDaniel as a guard prospect and Dermonti Dawson as a center prospect, both bigtime hall of fame interior offensive linemen.

Give me a McDaniel or Dawson for the next 10 years and Cooper is well worth the 7th overall selection.

 

[Zeno]

Yeah, a receiver touches the ball 10-15 times a game. A pass-rusher may only be on the field for half the defensive snaps. A running back may only get 20-30 touches. But OL will be impacting every single play the offense runs. Other than QB's, you really can't say that about a lot of other players.

I get what you are saying but in reality a WR may only be targeted 5-7 times a game, no way will they touch the ball 10-15 times (thats like 160 receptions minimum).

 

[crisper57]

I get what you are saying but in reality a WR may only be targeted 5-7 times a game, no way will they touch the ball 10-15 times (thats like 160 receptions minimum).

Yeah, I overstated that a bit. I mean to say "at most". And of course days like that get you Player of the Week awards.

 

[kerouac9]

I get what you are saying but in reality a WR may only be targeted 5-7 times a game, no way will they touch the ball 10-15 times (thats like 160 receptions minimum).

Depends on the WR. I'm going by rough numbers from football outsiders (if someone missed a game or two, the number will be smaller):

Targets per game
Megatron - 12.7
Andre Johnson - 10.1
Marques Colston - 8.1
Roddy White - 9.0
Larry Fitzgerald - 9.8

These are top #1 receivers. A primarily slot guy like Tavon Austin, if he's really remarkable, would see these kinds of targets:

Randall Cobb - 6.5
Wes Welker - 10.9
Victor Cruz - 8.9
Andre Roberts - 7.1
Danny Amendola - 6.1

It's difficult to imagine Austin justifying his draft position as a slot receiver.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Cooper works for me.

Steve

 

[Snakester]

If we took Cooper I would want him at center. Really though I would really be disapointed if we took Cooper at 7. If we traded down to at least 15 to 25 range I would be okay with the pick. Cooper is just not one of the guys I want in this draft. Not even in my top 20.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

I find this very funny. Why would anyone hate drafting a player who plays a position that contributes to it's respective unit on every play. A player that plays in every situation and can't be schemed out of a game. A player that doesn't depend on any other position to be productive.

Yes, you can find OGs later in the draft at a higher rate than other positions, but it still isn't doesn't have a high percentage of success.

I believe that our draft-paradigms need to shift away from the old conventions of how to conduct one's draft strategy.

The fan/industry expectation that all 1st round picks must:

a) start on day one
and
b) make an immediate impact

Couple this with the current CBA, and the value in the pick is now relative to the impact on the team, not in the player's value when compared to others in the league as a whole.

Every position is an appropriate top 10 pick now, not just the stereotypical "impact" players...except kickers and punters, those guys shouldn't even wear numbers...just a "K" or a "P".

 

[DoTheDew]

I think Cooper will be a good player and I will be happy if he is a Cardinal. Still think Warmack will be better though and we will always regret passing on the best for the 2nd best.