Josh on Johnson

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
. Pace (the other part of the equation) better get along the lines of 8 sacks and be an extremely disruptive force off the edge to justify his pick.

But I think, and what I have been saying all along, is that too many people expect too muc out of rookies. Sure they were first round picks, but compare their stats to toher first round picks taken at their slot or higher and you wont see any more production.

Why is it that you dont need Johnson to get 1300 yards and 8 td's but expect the world from Pace?

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK

Why is it that you dont need Johnson to get 1300 yards and 8 td's but expect the world from Pace?

Because Pace doesn't have a guy with Quans playmaking ability on the otherside.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Pariah
Because Pace doesn't have a guy with Quans playmaking ability on the otherside.

That should be even more of a reason to cut him some slack. There isnt a shred of talent (well ok maybe a shred) on that d-line. You dont think that has anything to do with his stats? I sure do.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Why is it that you dont need Johnson to get 1300 yards and 8 td's but expect the world from Pace?

Mainly because I expect no less than average to above-average production from a first-round pick at a starting position with no mitigating factors (such as injury). Graves compared Pace to Rice after he was drafted .

I don't think that 8 sacks is too much to ask from a 1st round pick in his second year. In 2003, 8 sacks would put you in a tie for 21st in the league with guys like Chike Okeafor and Greg Ellis.

Also, I don't think that Pace as a DE out of Wake Forest has the learning curve that Johnson has as a WR our of Penn State. Pace was supposed to be a finished product coming out of the draft (according to Graves, Mac, etc.).

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Pace wasn't a deluxe pass rusher in his rookie year. [/COLOR]

I think that Pace suffered from the preseason injury to KVB. Had KVB played this year, Pace would not have been forced to play every down. Instead, he could have come in on 3rd down and on obvious passing downs to rush the passer like Suggs did.

Pace had 13 QB hurries in 2003. I would think that some of those hurries would have been sacks if he were a pass rushing specialist. Perhaps this is what we will see in 2004 depending on who is available.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Graves compared Pace to Rice after he was drafted .

I think that was more of a body type comparison. They do look quite similar in build.

 

[Southpaw]

The second caller asked what Josh thought of Johnson being a bust after his first year's performance. Josh would not have any of that and pointed out several things; Johnson did not have a bad rookie season; that he was late to camp and that had an effect; that there is a huge benefit in your second year in the league because you now are able to concentrate on your profession all year and in the off-season and don't have school-related distractions. All in all, Josh was very supportive of Johnson and expects him to have a much better 2nd year.

He also said he is in contact with him and the other receivers and plans to work together in the off-season to make the best of this opportunity. [/B]

This is the off season. When do they start hanging out? A least Josh says the polite things about Johnson. He ain't about to throw him under the bus. I think the question about Johnson is more about what he didn't do, than what he did do.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Mainly because I expect no less than average to above-average production from a first-round pick at a starting position with no mitigating factors (such as injury). Graves compared Pace to Rice after he was drafted .

I don't think that 8 sacks is too much to ask from a 1st round pick in his second year. In 2003, 8 sacks would put you in a tie for 21st in the league with guys like Chike Okeafor and Greg Ellis.

Also, I don't think that Pace as a DE out of Wake Forest has the learning curve that Johnson has as a WR our of Penn State. Pace was supposed to be a finished product coming out of the draft (according to Graves, Mac, etc.).

Remember what type of defense Pace played in at WF. It was a hybrid 3-3-5 and he wasnt expected to be a 'speed rusher'. In fact his college coach said the same thing. Pace needs to develop Pass Rush moves if he wants to be a sack specialist. Otherwise his speed, athleticism, strength are excellent. So I think he DOES have to develop just as much as Johnson does.

As far as Graves comparing him to Rice....umm whatever. Bad Comparison. Pace's speciality in college was getting into the backfield and creating TFL. He was never a speed rusher lke Suggs or Rice. Can he be? Yes I think with the proper coaching he can develop some moves that will make him able to use his speed more and allow him to free up from the tackle.

I also beleive he is playing out of position as well. but thats another story.

I do not think 8 sacks is unreasonable either, but from the other side.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Remember what type of defense Pace played in at WF. It was a hybrid 3-3-5 and he wasnt expected to be a 'speed rusher'. In fact his college coach said the same thing. Pace needs to develop Pass Rush moves if he wants to be a sack specialist. Otherwise his speed, athleticism, strength are excellent. So I think he DOES have to develop just as much as Johnson does.

Maybe, but that's not the bill of goods that the Cards sold to us fans. I have a similar problem with Pace that I do with KVB: They're all right against the run (I guess), but are totally ineffective against the pass. Calvin less so than KVB, but still he had nothing going for him this season, and seemed to regress as the season wore on.

I disagree with Jim O's contention that Pace would have played less but performed better had KVB not gotten injured. That's poppycock. Pace immediately projected into Wakefield's spot, or with KVB moving into Wakefield's spot. There's very little evidence to suggest otherwise. The Cards have always thrown non-skill position players immediately into the fire, especially at high picks (Davis, Sheton, Bryant [as soon as possible after his holdout], Fisher, Mackovicka). Even at the skill positions, they hurry players into the lineup regardless of preparedness, most obviously with Tommy Knight.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by kerouac9
That's poppycock.

This is exactly why we need a censor on this board!!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Maybe, but that's not the bill of goods that the Cards sold to us fans. I have a similar problem with Pace that I do with KVB: They're all right against the run (I guess), but are totally ineffective against the pass. Calvin less so than KVB, but still he had nothing going for him this season, and seemed to regress as the season wore on.

I disagree with Jim O's contention that Pace would have played less but performed better had KVB not gotten injured. That's poppycock. Pace immediately projected into Wakefield's spot, or with KVB moving into Wakefield's spot. There's very little evidence to suggest otherwise. The Cards have always thrown non-skill position players immediately into the fire, especially at high picks (Davis, Sheton, Bryant [as soon as possible after his holdout], Fisher, Mackovicka). Even at the skill positions, they hurry players into the lineup regardless of preparedness, most obviously with Tommy Knight.

Well I cant speak for Graves and Mac. All I know is from what I watch and I have watched Pace going on 3 years now. If people are willing to give slack to Johnson there is no reason that same slack cant be given to Pace.

Now as far as KVB is concerned, Jim is right. On the depth Chart in preseason Mac had Pace listed BEHIND KVB. Furthermore, I heard him say on many occasions that 'he wants to get Pace in there on 3rd downs to do nothing but rush the passer.'

Pace was not projected to start right off this year and the injury to KVB did require him to step in as an every down player

As far as wearing down? Well he had a groin injury in week 10 and besides that every rookie begins to slow down as the season goes on. Its the adjusment to a 16 game schedule that hurts them.

I am no annointing anyone a pro bowler here, but hell it was a rookie season, he was playing more than projected, and he still, stat wise, compared witht he other DE's taken in the draft before and after him (sans williams).

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Maybe, but that's not the bill of goods that the Cards sold to us fans. I have a similar problem with Pace that I do with KVB: They're all right against the run (I guess), but are totally ineffective against the pass. Calvin less so than KVB, but still he had nothing going for him this season, and seemed to regress as the season wore on.

I disagree with Jim O's contention that Pace would have played less but performed better had KVB not gotten injured. That's poppycock. Pace immediately projected into Wakefield's spot, or with KVB moving into Wakefield's spot. There's very little evidence to suggest otherwise. The Cards have always thrown non-skill position players immediately into the fire, especially at high picks (Davis, Sheton, Bryant [as soon as possible after his holdout], Fisher, Mackovicka). Even at the skill positions, they hurry players into the lineup regardless of preparedness, most obviously with Tommy Knight.

Well I cant speak for Graves and Mac. All I know is from what I watch and I have watched Pace going on 3 years now. If people are willing to give slack to Johnson there is no reason that same slack cant be given to Pace.

Now as far as KVB is concerned, Jim is right. On the depth Chart in preseason Mac had Pace listed BEHIND KVB. Furthermore, I heard him say on many occasions that 'he wants to get Pace in there on 3rd downs to do nothing but rush the passer.'

Pace was not projected to start right off this year and the injury to KVB did require him to step in as an every down player

As far as wearing down? Well he had a groin injury in week 10 and besides that every rookie begins to slow down as the season goes on. Its the adjusment to a 16 game schedule that hurts them.

I am no annointing anyone a pro bowler here, but hell it was a rookie season, he was playing more than projected, and he still, stat wise, compared with the other DE's taken in the draft before and after him (sans williams).

 

[kerouac9]

You can say that again.

After watching him play multiple times, I'm most concerned that I just didn't see anything from Pace. He seemed to be pretty well handled by every OT he went up against, from the beginning of the season to the end. Nothing really jumped out at me regarding power, speed, moves, effort, etc. Teams were running right at him throughout the season. Usually you can see some "flashes" of what a player is capable of. Johnson's examples of this would be his 41-yard grab against Seattle, and his 54-yard TD against Pittsburgh. Were those game-changing moments? Not really, but they gave me reason to stay optimistic about the kid.

To tell you the truth, I never remember Pace getting a groin injury. At least his "production" didn't drop off after that.

I just never saw much from Pace once the games started to count. If you saw reasons for hope during the season, I'd love to hear them. I'm in no way ready to condemn the kid, either, obviously. But there's far more reason for concern to me. You think that just with all that time on the field he would have wandered into a couple sacks, like Wakefield does every year.

As for Jim O's vaunted "hurries": I'm not sure I saw a QB hurried all season against the Cards besides Garcia when the Neeners were here. I expect that Pace's "hurries" were more along the lines of him getting near the QB after 4.5 seconds just before the QB got rid of the ball to a reciever who finally got open. Like in 2002, QBs around the league set up picnics in the pocket against the Cards.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
You can say that again.

After watching him play multiple times, I'm most concerned that I just didn't see anything from Pace. He seemed to be pretty well handled by every OT he went up against, from the beginning of the season to the end. Nothing really jumped out at me regarding power, speed, moves, effort, etc. Teams were running right at him throughout the season. Usually you can see some "flashes" of what a player is capable of. Johnson's examples of this would be his 41-yard grab against Seattle, and his 54-yard TD against Pittsburgh. Were those game-changing moments? Not really, but they gave me reason to stay optimistic about the kid.

To tell you the truth, I never remember Pace getting a groin injury. At least his "production" didn't drop off after that.

I just never saw much from Pace once the games started to count. If you saw reasons for hope during the season, I'd love to hear them. I'm in no way ready to condemn the kid, either, obviously. But there's far more reason for concern to me. You think that just with all that time on the field he would have wandered into a couple sacks, like Wakefield does every year.

As for Jim O's vaunted "hurries": I'm not sure I saw a QB hurried all season against the Cards besides Garcia when the Neeners were here. I expect that Pace's "hurries" were more along the lines of him getting near the QB after 4.5 seconds just before the QB got rid of the ball to a reciever who finally got open. Like in 2002, QBs around the league set up picnics in the pocket against the Cards.

Good post.

I have argued this point with you and others on this board for months now. I still see great upside in Pace. I think he has the athleticism, the motor, and the speed to be very good. With all the circumstances surrounding this team (lack of talent, lack of coaching, injuries, etc) it is hard for me, unlike you, to even say he '...showed me nothing' he actually did

1. He had some QB pressures especially early in the season
2. He played the run well.
3. He showed some quickness off the edge in preseason
4. Never gave up on plays like some lazy DT's on this team.

Although none of that is very much, it is a fine line between a sack and a hurry. Pace may have only been a split second too late, or, like you said, he may not have gotten there until 5 seconds later-who knows?

My point is, that when his coach says he needs to learn some pass rushing moves (not just rely on athleticism) and needs coaching, then thats what , I expect, he needs.

I still think he has much more upside then anyone on this D-line, whether he coaches can get it out of him or not remains to be seen.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
My point is, that when his coach says he needs to learn some pass rushing moves (not just rely on athleticism) and needs coaching, then thats what , I expect, he needs.

I still think he has much more upside then anyone on this D-line, whether he coaches can get it out of him or not remains to be seen.

He does have more upside than anyone excepting Wendell Bryant, who just has more strength and athleticism than Pace. Bryant's question is motor and effort, which can be brought out with coaching and (when necessary) fear.

My main point is that this team isn't really lacking run-playing defensive ends. That's all we have. We need pass rushers. That's, apparently, what Graves expected to get. Based on that, we have to be dissappointed with Pace's production as a rookie, or lack thereof.

One thing that belies the statement the Pace shouldn't have played as much is that he wasn't a pass-rusher in college. Why would Graves, Mac, Jim, and, apparently, yourself think that Pace would have been more effective only on passing downs if he wasn't a pass rusher in college?

Again addressing the hurries: I suppose one easy meaure of how effective his hurries have been is based on the number of times that he knocked the ball out of the hand of the QB, either for a fumble or for just an incomplete pass. Let me look real quick... Oh, there were none.

I agree that Pace could become a solid strong-side defensive end. Unfortunately, that's not what this team needs. Hopefully better coaching will be able to bring out more in the kid. The Cards can't afford to whiff on ANOTHER pass rusher.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
He does have more upside than anyone excepting Wendell Bryant, who just has more strength and athleticism than Pace. Bryant's question is motor and effort, which can be brought out with coaching and (when necessary) fear.

My main point is that this team isn't really lacking run-playing defensive ends. That's all we have. We need pass rushers. That's, apparently, what Graves expected to get. Based on that, we have to be dissappointed with Pace's production as a rookie, or lack thereof.

One thing that belies the statement the Pace shouldn't have played as much is that he wasn't a pass-rusher in college. Why would Graves, Mac, Jim, and, apparently, yourself think that Pace would have been more effective only on passing downs if he wasn't a pass rusher in college?

Again addressing the hurries: I suppose one easy meaure of how effective his hurries have been is based on the number of times that he knocked the ball out of the hand of the QB, either for a fumble or for just an incomplete pass. Let me look real quick... Oh, there were none.

I agree that Pace could become a solid strong-side defensive end. Unfortunately, that's not what this team needs. Hopefully better coaching will be able to bring out more in the kid. The Cards can't afford to whiff on ANOTHER pass rusher.

Playing less downs = being fresh. Quite simple really. They apparently did not want to throw a rookie into one of the toughest positions in football. Second, maybe they recognized, like I and some others, that although the experience might be good for him, he still lacks serious Pass rush moves that need to be taught. I think teaching pass rush moves to an atheltic DE with a good motor would be mich easier than ...say....teaching an underachieveing, lazy DT how to not be lazy, wouldnt you?

As far as Having less upside than Bryant, I only have one very simple question for you: Have you been smoking crack again?

Bryant, outside of Wadsworth, may be the single biggest bust in franchise history. (ok TJ was a big bust for us too). I waited for something, anything to happen from this guy last year, but all I kept hearing was "He missed training camp, he will be better next year" then I preceeded to watch his slow, lumbering, lazy self give up on plays and his teammates through out the course of the year. But wait, "He just needs to get in shape and have a full training camp and he will be solid" Sounds great I thought!

hmmmph...flashforward to this year. "Man Bryant really looks a lot leaner in camp, seems to really have his act together. Really firing off the ball. He has really been in the weight room' and once again, I watched as his lazy play dominated the game. Play pass you by Wendel? ok just lay down. Cant get to the QB Wendel? OK just call it a night.

Remember this is the same guy who had exactly 1 more sack than Pace did all year. (Not to mention 1 more year in the NFL) And you are calling WHO a bust?

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Wendell Bryant, who just has more strength and athleticism than Pace.

Ummmm..... No.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
As far as Having less upside than Bryant, I only have one very simple question for you: Have you been smoking crack again?

I'm not calling anyone a bust. I think that this is a make-or-break season for Bryant.

Bryant has more upside because I think that phycially he has more potential than Pace. Mentally, he has much farther to go.

If both players had the same fire and effort, who would be better? Who was better in college? Who has better measureables relative to their position? I think the answer to all three questions is Bryant. There's a reason that Bryant was picked high. Perhaps a coaching staff with a clue will be able to develop both players to their full potential.

I think that the long and short of it is that the ceiling on Bryant's production is much higher.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I'm not calling anyone a bust. I think that this is a make-or-break season for Bryant.

Bryant has more upside because I think that phycially he has more potential than Pace. Mentally, he has much farther to go.

If both players had the same fire and effort, who would be better? Who was better in college? Who has better measureables relative to their position? I think the answer to all three questions is Bryant. There's a reason that Bryant was picked high. Perhaps a coaching staff with a clue will be able to develop both players to their full potential.

I think that the long and short of it is that the ceiling on Bryant's production is much higher.

Well if you want to bust out Measurables then I would say Pace. Remember Pace started jumping up peoples draft board last year after his 40 times at the combine. He can run. His wingspan was very impressive too. His 10 yard burst times were very good etc etc. I dont remember what Bryants was, but I doubt it was better than Pace.

Remember Pace was touted as being the best athlete in the ACC. better than Quan and a few others. Also to his credit are:

All-America first-team selection by the American Football Coaches Association, Third-team honors from The NFL Draft Report and the Associated Press … All-ACC first-team pick … Named ACC Defensive Player of the Year by The Sporting News …


I just dont buy that he isnt a sphysically 'gifted' as Bryant. Sorry!

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't even like Bryant when we drafted him; I wanted Albert Haynesworth. The Cards settled for lesser players under Mac because he wanted his type of people. I'm standing by Bryant for another season because I thought that he was doing well before the ankle sprain. If he's bad starting 2004, I'll be the first one to call for his release.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by Redheart
.... that he was late to camp and that had an effect...

I thought we had everyone in on time last year??

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I didn't even like Bryant when we drafted him; I wanted Albert Haynesworth. The Cards settled for lesser players under Mac because he wanted his type of people. I'm standing by Bryant for another season because I thought that he was doing well before the ankle sprain. If he's bad starting 2004, I'll be the first one to call for his release.

And I will certainly be expecting much more out of Pace in year 2, and will be calling for his head if he doesnt produce either!

EDIT: Measurables:

Bryant
4.77 in the 40-yard dash
1.89 10 yard
26¾-inch vertical jump
4.47 in the 20-yard shuttle
340-pound bench press
485-pound squat …
33¾-inch arm length …
9¼-inch hands
Left-handed.

Pace
4.65 in the 40-yard dash
1.74 10 yard
33-inch vertical jump
N/A 20-yard shuttle
450-pound bench press
510-pound squat
33¼-inch arm length
9½-inch hands
Right-handed.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by kerouac9
One thing that belies the statement the Pace shouldn't have played as much is that he wasn't a pass-rusher in college. Why would Graves, Mac, Jim, and, apparently, yourself think that Pace would have been more effective only on passing downs if he wasn't a pass rusher in college?

Well in the last three years of college, he had decent sack numbers:

2002 - 8 sacks
2001 - 10 sacks
2000 - 9 sacks

When you consider the defense he was playing in, those are impressive pass rushing numbers. That is why the staff would have liked to rotate him in the game as opposed to making him an every down player...especially in passing situations. He hit the "Rookie wall" toward the end of the season. I am not saying that all of his 13 hurries would have been sacks, but I would bet that some of them would have been.

 

[Stout]

Re: Re: Josh on Johnson

Originally posted by RedStorm
I thought we had everyone in on time last year??

Not quite...but almost. Either Johnson, Pace or both signed like a day or two after the opening of camp this past year. Didn't really hurt them, though.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK


Bryant
4.77 in the 40-yard dash
1.89 10 yard
26¾-inch vertical jump
4.47 in the 20-yard shuttle
340-pound bench press
485-pound squat …
33¾-inch arm length …
9¼-inch hands
Left-handed.

Pace
4.65 in the 40-yard dash
1.74 10 yard
33-inch vertical jump
N/A 20-yard shuttle
450-pound bench press
510-pound squat
33¼-inch arm length
9½-inch hands
Right-handed.

Kerouac, I thought Bryant had more strength and athleticism. The only thing Bryant has more of than Pace is in the beer belly department. Pace was shooting up everyone's boards prior to draft day, not just ours. Was he taken too fast? Yes, but he would not have been there for us in the third or fourth round like all you pessismists love to say. Pace's problem is that he doesn't seem to have any pass rush moves. Good coaching will help that.