Jurecki: G Colledge likely cap casualty

[Chopper0080]

We may have had an elite OL with the Shelton-Kendall-Gruttadauria-Davis-Clement unit in 2001, but we'll never know because of the clowns operating the offense and a defense that couldn't stop anyone. Also, IIRC that was the season where Plummer handled every snap despite playing with a hand injury the whole year.

There isn't a Bradley Sowell or Alan Fanika on that unit.

I think that you can safely say that anyone drafted in the first three rounds will be a talent upgrade over Bradley Sowell--possibly and player drafted at all. It may not be the immediate quantum leap that adding a player like Branden Albert would be, but it'd still be a huge upgrade.

Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Cards signed someone like Roger Saffold to a 1- or 2- year contract for $2-4M per season as they look for a longer-term solution at the position through the draft. It'd be the moral equivalent of signing Lorenzo Alexander or Jasper Brinkley.

I think this is pretty likely. Not necessarily Saffold, but I see the Cardinals looking at either the top or the bottom of the free agent markts rather than in the middle. Most players on rosters are expendable so no reason to throw 6 or 7 mil at Anthony Collins who hopefully performs to the level of a much cheaper first round pick. It is why so many teams bust at free agency. They pay big money to an expendable player rather than identify difference makers who will be worth the pay.

Saffold at 3 mil > Collins/Veldheer at 6 mil, just my opinion.

 

[Gandhi]

It isn't ideal but I believe Kouandjio will give you similar production to Veldheer or Collins at a fraction of the cost.

It isn't ideal but I believe Kouandjio will give you similar production to Veldheer or Collins at a fraction of the cost.

Not only do I agree, I actually think it would be close to ideal. I think it's pretty clear that Kouandjio has only had problems because he doesn't play with the right technique. Nearly every sack he gave up this previous season came when the pass rusher used a combination of a speed rush and a bull rushed, and because of that came very close into Kouandjio's body. Kouandjio didn't consistently stretched his arms to drive the rusher away from the quarterback, and the result was every time that Kouandjio looked bad. Really, it's just a matter of teaching, and being a full time pro should make that learning-time relatively short. I would be ecstatic if they selected Kouandjio.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree with you that it isn't as simple as Albert/Minter or Sowell/Dansby, but for me, I am not sure I would sign Veldheer or Collins because of risk vs cost. Both would likely run about 7 mil per year and neither has proven much to me. If I am the Cardinals, I either grab one of the top LTs in FA or I use that money elsewhere and draft an OT in the first couple rounds of the draft. It isn't ideal but I believe Kouandjio will give you similar production to Veldheer or Collins at a fraction of the cost.

There are plenty of free agents who woulld fill holes on this roster and I don't feel pigeonholed into thinking our money has to go to the LT spot. Talib, Jarius Byrd or Dennis Pitta would all look nice in Cardinal red and fill a pretty big hole.

In the long run, I agree with you that any rookie is going to be better than a mid-level free agent, if only from a cost perspective. But what you don't know is whether that kid is going to come in and be a Levi Brown/Bobbie Massie mental disaster, and the likelihood of that happening with a veteran free agent is substantially less, because you have a much larger sample size to review. I know you didn't quote it, and I hate it when others do this, but here are my estimates for what the FA tackles we're discussing may cost:

I don't know. Anthony Collins made about $2M this year. Jake Long's deal from last year averages $8.5M per year. He'll make much less than that.

I imagine that a deal between $4M-$6M per season is probably fair for Collins.

Veldheer's coming off a rookie contract that paid him very little; he made $1.3M last year. He's going to be looking for a bit of a payday after starting 48 games over the last four years. I'd guess he'll get between $5M and $8M per season.

Gross is a more proven commodity than either guy. He could reasonable argue that he'd be giving Carolina a discount at $7M per season. I don't think he's going to leave the Panthers.

You're right that it's not ideal to pay either guy more than $6M per year, and we'll likely pass if that's the money that they're looking for. But Collins on a three-year, $12M contract? Veldheer on a four-year, $20M contract? I think those are numbers that you can swallow and walk away feeling pretty happy about if you can stop worrying about your OT position.

Particularly if you're confident these guys can stand up one-on-one (something you can't do with Sowell). Then you can move the help protection over to Massie's side and not have to cast about for a replacement for Winston.

I think predictions of Sowell moving to right tackle misunderstand what this offensive system looks for in a tackle.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I think predictions of Sowell moving to right tackle misunderstand what this offensive system looks for in a tackle.

Or, they like the guy for really no reason more than the afforded the Cardinals the ability to get Levi Brown out of town, and now feel compelled to fit him into the lineup.

You know....just a guess.

In reality, I think has a hard time making the roster next season unless there are injuries.

I really like the guys motor, and attitude, but by seasons end he was getting worked over pretty regularly. He played well within the system against less talent, but the Niners ate his lunch and threw it back up on his new shoes.

 

[kerouac9]

Or, they like the guy for really no reason more than the afforded the Cardinals the ability to get Levi Brown out of town, and now feel compelled to fit him into the lineup.

You know....just a guess.

In reality, I think has a hard time making the roster next season unless there are injuries.

I really like the guys motor, and attitude, but by seasons end he was getting worked over pretty regularly. He played well within the system against less talent, but the Niners ate his lunch and threw it back up on his new shoes.

I dunno. It's not like he has a murder's row that he'd have to compete with. He's already taken Nate Potter's job. If the team releases Daryn Colledge and doesn't re-sign Winston, Massie is back into the starting RT position and Sowell can play the blocking TE role.

 

[Chopper0080]

In the long run, I agree with you that any rookie is going to be better than a mid-level free agent, if only from a cost perspective. But what you don't know is whether that kid is going to come in and be a Levi Brown/Bobbie Massie mental disaster, and the likelihood of that happening with a veteran free agent is substantially less, because you have a much larger sample size to review. I know you didn't quote it, and I hate it when others do this, but here are my estimates for what the FA tackles we're discussing may cost:



You're right that it's not ideal to pay either guy more than $6M per year, and we'll likely pass if that's the money that they're looking for. But Collins on a three-year, $12M contract? Veldheer on a four-year, $20M contract? I think those are numbers that you can swallow and walk away feeling pretty happy about if you can stop worrying about your OT position.

Particularly if you're confident these guys can stand up one-on-one (something you can't do with Sowell). Then you can move the help protection over to Massie's side and not have to cast about for a replacement for Winston.

I think predictions of Sowell moving to right tackle misunderstand what this offensive system looks for in a tackle.

Agreed. I also wouldn't be shocked to see the Cardinals forgo re-signing Winston and make a pass at Saffold with his ability to play both OT and OG as well as his physical play for the Rams last year.

Personally, I think we have seen the end of Potter and Massie as potential starters. As far as who we bring in, I have very little clue what Arians and Keim look for in their OTs and OGs. Cooper, Colledge, Watford and Fanaika are all very different players though you could argue all but Fanaika have the ability to move well. In terms of OTs, I have no clue. Smart and tough might be the starting point after watching the quick demotion of Potter and Massie though Sowell looked like a Potter clone to me.

I have some feelers out with some folks who are more informed than I to get an idea of what type of players fit what we want along our offensive line. If I hear anything I can share I will let you all know but, as of right now, I can only speculate.

 

[kerouac9]

Agreed. I also wouldn't be shocked to see the Cardinals forgo re-signing Winston and make a pass at Saffold with his ability to play both OT and OG as well as his physical play for the Rams last year.

Personally, I think we have seen the end of Potter and Massie as potential starters. As far as who we bring in, I have very little clue what Arians and Keim look for in their OTs and OGs. Cooper, Colledge, Watford and Fanaika are all very different players though you could argue all but Fanaika have the ability to move well. In terms of OTs, I have no clue. Smart and tough might be the starting point after watching the quick demotion of Potter and Massie though Sowell looked like a Potter clone to me.

I have some feelers out with some folks who are more informed than I to get an idea of what type of players fit what we want along our offensive line. If I hear anything I can share I will let you all know but, as of right now, I can only speculate.

I'd love to hear what you find out. If you want to do a little independent research, look into the Power-O offense and see what the general outlines are. As I've said before, Power-O teams (teams that like to create numbers advantages on one side of the center by pulling a guard across the formation) tend to like bigger tackles and are willing to sacrifice agility for size in order to get a stronger push on the edge.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think predictions of Sowell moving to right tackle misunderstand what this offensive system looks for in a tackle.

Didn't Sowell play RT for Arians in Indy?

 

[kerouac9]

Didn't Sowell play RT for Arians in Indy?

I don't know. I think he was a swing tackle, and mostly a 3rd TE.

The 2012 Indianapolis Colts offensive line is hardly a model to be repeated. They were, by far, the worst offensive line in the league.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't know. I think he was a swing tackle, and mostly a 3rd TE.

The 2012 Indianapolis Colts offensive line is hardly a model to be repeated. They were, by far, the worst offensive line in the league.

I was just pointing out that he played RT for Arians in Indy, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's the RT in Arizona next year. I think he started their playoff game at RT for Indy but that was because of injury.

Either way, If Arians seems to be content with his play at LT this year, which, even though he says so, I find hard to believe, I think he'll be fine with him at RT next year.

 

[Duckjake]

I was just pointing out that he played RT for Arians in Indy, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's the RT in Arizona next year. I think he started their playoff game at RT for Indy but that was because of injury.

Either way, If Arians seems to be content with his play at LT this year, which, even though he says so, I find hard to believe, I think he'll be fine with him at RT next year.

Did Sowell even play in a game for Indianapolis? Gosder Cherilus is listed as the Colts starter at RT in the playoff games. Oops wrong year. Winston Justice is listed as the starter at RT for the Colts vs the Ravens in 2012.

 

[kerouac9]

I was just pointing out that he played RT for Arians in Indy, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's the RT in Arizona next year. I think he started their playoff game at RT for Indy but that was because of injury.

Either way, If Arians seems to be content with his play at LT this year, which, even though he says so, I find hard to believe, I think he'll be fine with him at RT next year.

I'm looking at the Football Outsiders 2013 guide, and Sowell isn't listed anywhere among the OL starters, and they have Seth Olsen listed with only 283 OL snaps on the season.

I think you're overrating severely the contributions Sowell made and/or the affection this coaching staff may have for Sowell. Dude is not a good NFL player, and he should count himself very fortunate if he's on an NFL roster two seasons from now. Regardless of what Bruce Arians says in January and February.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm looking at the Football Outsiders 2013 guide, and Sowell isn't listed anywhere among the OL starters, and they have Seth Olsen listed with only 283 OL snaps on the season.

I think you're overrating severely the contributions Sowell made and/or the affection this coaching staff may have for Sowell. Dude is not a good NFL player, and he should count himself very fortunate if he's on an NFL roster two seasons from now. Regardless of what Bruce Arians says in January and February.

I think Sowell has value as a vet min guy who can step in and not make mistakes. He should not be a starter, but I do believe that he brings a bit of value to an NFL roster. Totally replaceable, but for the cost, worth keeping around IMO. He isn't my first OL cut if I need a roster spot.

 

[Reddog]

I think Sowell has value as a vet min guy who can step in and not make mistakes. He should not be a starter, but I do believe that he brings a bit of value to an NFL roster. Totally replaceable, but for the cost, worth keeping around IMO. He isn't my first OL cut if I need a roster spot.

Where do you rank him relative to Massie?

 

[kerouac9]

I think Sowell has value as a vet min guy who can step in and not make mistakes. He should not be a starter, but I do believe that he brings a bit of value to an NFL roster. Totally replaceable, but for the cost, worth keeping around IMO. He isn't my first OL cut if I need a roster spot.

Yeah. I think he's more valuable than someone like Nate Potter because he has some track record on the field, and you can predict what he's going to do.

He's got a really, really low ceiling as a player, though. He's probably already reached it. He's kind of a 6th lineman that you'd prefer to be your 7th.

 

[Totally_Red]

I think Sowell has value as a vet min guy who can step in and not make mistakes. He should not be a starter, but I do believe that he brings a bit of value to an NFL roster. Totally replaceable, but for the cost, worth keeping around IMO. He isn't my first OL cut if I need a roster spot.

Dependable guy who works hard, and minimizes the foolish penalties. He's a B.A. type player.

 

[Chopper0080]

Where do you rank him relative to Massie?

Ahead because he can be counted on to start and not mistakes. Massie has the physical ability to start but Arians and Keim have both lamented his struggles with the mental aspect of the game. Massie just makes too many mental mistakes to trust at this point.

Cooper
Colledge
Sendlein
Winston
Fanaika
Watford
Sowell
Massie
Potter

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm looking at the Football Outsiders 2013 guide, and Sowell isn't listed anywhere among the OL starters, and they have Seth Olsen listed with only 283 OL snaps on the season.

I think you're overrating severely the contributions Sowell made and/or the affection this coaching staff may have for Sowell. Dude is not a good NFL player, and he should count himself very fortunate if he's on an NFL roster two seasons from now. Regardless of what Bruce Arians says in January and February.

I'm not overstating anything. The guy started the majority of the year at LT for the Cards and he was with Arians and played RT in Indy. It's no stretch to see him playing RT in Arizona next year. I never once commented on his playing ability.

Here's from the Colts website. He was the backup RT a few games in 2012.

2012 (COLTS):

• Played in 10 games on the offensive line and special teams after being signed off the Tampa Bay Buccaneers practice squad on September 11, 2012.
• Competed in his first contest as a member of the Colts against Minnesota (9/16).
• Was a reserve on the offensive line against Cleveland (10/21) in Week 7.
• Participated on the offensive line in a reserve role in the team’s Week 10 victory at Jacksonville (11/8).
• Played on special teams against Houston (12/30) and contributed with an 11-yard kickoff return in the second quarter.
• Filled in on the offensive line during the team’s Wild Card Playoff loss at Baltimore (1/6) and assisted the Colts offense in totaling 419 net yards.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not overstating anything. The guy started the majority of the year at LT for the Cards and he was with Arians and played RT in Indy. It's no stretch to see him playing RT in Arizona next year. I never once commented on his playing ability.

Here's from the Colts website. He was the backup RT a few games in 2012.

2012 (COLTS):

• Played in 10 games on the offensive line and special teams after being signed off the Tampa Bay Buccaneers practice squad on September 11, 2012.
• Competed in his first contest as a member of the Colts against Minnesota (9/16).
• Was a reserve on the offensive line against Cleveland (10/21) in Week 7.
• Participated on the offensive line in a reserve role in the team’s Week 10 victory at Jacksonville (11/8).
• Played on special teams against Houston (12/30) and contributed with an 11-yard kickoff return in the second quarter.
• Filled in on the offensive line during the team’s Wild Card Playoff loss at Baltimore (1/6) and assisted the Colts offense in totaling 419 net yards.

He played fewer than 200 snaps on a terrible offensive line in 2012. Not exactly a compelling argument for his value to the Colts, who did everything they possibly could to be able to get rid of him in 2013. Looks from that bullet point list that he played parts of 2 games on the OL.

Very compelling experience of his RT credentials.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

He played fewer than 200 snaps on a terrible offensive line in 2012. Not exactly a compelling argument for his value to the Colts, who did everything they possibly could to be able to get rid of him in 2013. Looks from that bullet point list that he played parts of 2 games on the OL.

Very compelling experience of his RT credentials.

Okay, I get it. You're just trying to be argumentative. If you don't think there's a possibility that Sowell is the starting RT then so be it. The sky is not blue and the sun isn't yellow either.

 

[daves]

The sky is not blue and the sun isn't yellow either.

http://www.universetoday.com/18689/color-of-the-sun/



...dave

 

[Buckybird]

I'm looking at the Football Outsiders 2013 guide, and Sowell isn't listed anywhere among the OL starters, and they have Seth Olsen listed with only 283 OL snaps on the season.

I think you're overrating severely the contributions Sowell made and/or the affection this coaching staff may have for Sowell. Dude is not a good NFL player, and he should count himself very fortunate if he's on an NFL roster two seasons from now. Regardless of what Bruce Arians says in January and February.

Still is as good or better than ole #75! Less mental lapses & the Cards never had a winning record with Clown as their LT & wouldn't have either in 2013 if he continued on the roster

 

[kerouac9]

Okay, I get it. You're just trying to be argumentative. If you don't think there's a possibility that Sowell is the starting RT then so be it. The sky is not blue and the sun isn't yellow either.

I believe that if we look back on this thread and others we'll find that you're making Sowell the presumptive starter at RT for 2014 as much as you're naming Earl Watford the presumptive starter at RG for 2014. I'm fine discussing the possibility, but let's look at the evidence and discuss that before we make the assumption that this is going to happen.

If you've looked at the facts from last season and realized that Sowell didn't contribute as much to the Colts as you had presumed he did, just say that. Don't get all defensive that you just meant that because he had a few dozen snaps scattered over 16 weeks, that he can be a contributing starter at RT for the 2014 Arizona Cardinals, or that so doing would be a good thing.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Fun!

Here is my list from 2013:

Winston
Sendlein
Colledge
Sowell
Fanaika
Massie
Watford
Potter

Inc: Cooper

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Levi Brown

 

[kerouac9]

Ahead because he can be counted on to start and not mistakes. Massie has the physical ability to start but Arians and Keim have both lamented his struggles with the mental aspect of the game. Massie just makes too many mental mistakes to trust at this point.

Cooper
Colledge
Sendlein
Winston
Fanaika
Watford
Sowell
Massie
Potter

I don't understand why you would rank Watford (who never saw the field) ahead of Sowell (who started a dozen games), Massie (who was active more or less all season and was seeing the field at the end of the year), and Potter (who got some actual on-field snaps as well).

I believe you may be suffering from a relatively new condition called "Kelemeteitis". It's a condition where someone over-evaluates a player based on preseason snaps against terrible opponents and doesn't necessarily properly weight his lack of contribution during the year.