Just looking to pile on...

TucsonDevil

Good to be back!
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
2,575
Reaction score
19
Location
SLC, UT
I think the majority of us are disgusted by the ownership of this once proud franchise. This article just rubs salt in my wounds:

Spurs remodel

A couple of depressing quotes from the article:
So Popovich began the Spurs’ reconstruction with a question to the franchise’s owner: Are we serious about wanting another championship?
“If so,” Popovich said, “it’s time to pony up.”
In truth, Spurs chairman Peter Holt and the rest of the franchise’s ownership group didn’t need much convincing to spend. Ticket sales had begun to lag in recent seasons, even as the Spurs collected their fourth title in 2007. Last season’s first-round loss, coupled with the recession, slowed season-ticket renewals considerably more. In a private document charting ticket revenue distributed by the NBA to its 30 teams, the Spurs’ renewal rate stood at 69 percent as of July 6, a drop of more than 11 percent as of the same time a year ago.
“Our renewals just died after the first round,” Holt said, “and they stayed dead for a while.”
This wasn’t a dilemma for Holt as much as it was a clear sign of what needed to be done: To make money – or, as will likely be the case, lose less – the Spurs needed to add talent.
Here is the one that hurts the most:
The Spurs’ owners, who don’t rely on the franchise’s bottom line to shape their personal fortunes, had money to spend.
It's not enough that we keep getting worse with a sincere lack of a plan, but the competition is taking advantage creating more distance between us.

SARVER, please sell the team. Sell it for a loss. I know it is your prerogative, but do you realize just how many people are effected by your decisions? You don't have a mind for basketball operations - very few actually do. Just get out of the game now, please.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,493
Reaction score
14,647
Good article, I despise the Spurs, while also respecting the hell out of them. From ownership, to coaches, and players, the Spurs are a group that has a singular focus of winning a championship, as opposed to all the pretenders out there who talk big, but have no real mettle to do what it takes.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
Heres one thing I want to point out that won't be popular but is no less true.

Sarver acquired the team in 2004. We signed Nash and under his ownership had 4 of the most successful seasons in franchise history. Under the previous ownership group (that has become a lot more popular in hindsight) we had just finished a 8-9 year span where we were the definition of mediocrity getting bounced in the first round.

A fate that most likley befalls this team as currently constructed.

Under Robert Sarver.

What exactly did Sarver screw up? The success that started when he got here?

Don't take this as a "Atta - boy" for ol' Robby. Just a dose of perspective.
 

Mr. Boldin

Mel Kiper's Daddy
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Posts
1,634
Reaction score
284
The thing about this Spurs is that they never overspend and always draft well.

When you have a front office and ownership that clearly works well with the coach you have the leadership necessary to build a competitive franchise.

The fact that the Spurs never overspend while winning, allowed them to be a huge player this summer (taking on Jefferson's contract).
 

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
22,571
Reaction score
12,352
Location
Laveen, AZ
Arizona's Finest, I, among a few, point out Sarver does spend money. Why else would we be having luxury tax problems? My point is the team hasn't spent it wisely. The team was set up pretty nice by the Colangelos for him. Remember, they were still here when they wen't to get Nash and begin the run you outline? During the remaining time, the decisions of who to keep, who to let go, and who to go get have been extremely suspect in my mind.
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
If the economy continues to spiral downward there are going to be major changes in pro sports. I predict that within 5 years a major professional sports franchise will fold.
 
OP
OP
TucsonDevil

TucsonDevil

Good to be back!
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
2,575
Reaction score
19
Location
SLC, UT
If the economy continues to spiral downward there are going to be major changes in pro sports. I predict that within 5 years a major professional sports franchise will fold.

I hope you don't consider the NHL a major sport? They haven't been major, ever - just very relevant in the North and East parts of the country.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,493
Reaction score
14,647
What exactly did Sarver screw up? The success that started when he got here?

ROTFL, this is the most delusional revisionist history I've ever seen. Either this entire post is a joke or you haven't been paying any attention since he's taken over.
 
OP
OP
TucsonDevil

TucsonDevil

Good to be back!
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
2,575
Reaction score
19
Location
SLC, UT
Heres one thing I want to point out that won't be popular but is no less true.

Sarver acquired the team in 2004. We signed Nash and under his ownership had 4 of the most successful seasons in franchise history. Under the previous ownership group (that has become a lot more popular in hindsight) we had just finished a 8-9 year span where we were the definition of mediocrity getting bounced in the first round.

A fate that most likley befalls this team as currently constructed.

Under Robert Sarver.

What exactly did Sarver screw up? The success that started when he got here?

Don't take this as a "Atta - boy" for ol' Robby. Just a dose of perspective.

The JC and BC orchestrated the Nash deal, as well as the drafts of Amare/Marion. While the Suns did sputter for a few years, clearly you weren't paying attention in the late 80s and early 90s when JC turned the franchise into a top tier franchise. FAs wanted to come to Phoenix.

I'm not saying that I haven't agreed with some of the moves, but for the most part the Sarver controlled Suns look to Maximize Net Profits, not Wins or Playoff penetration.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Posts
74
Reaction score
0
Devil's Advodate for Sarver

Sarver
5 Seasons
5 > .500 Seasons (100%)
2 60+ Win Seasons
2 MVPs
3 Division Champs

Pre-Sarver
37 Seasons
20 > .500 Seasons (not 100%)
1 60+ Win Seasons
1 MVP
3 Division Champs

Best Five Year Average for Season Wins for the Suns
57 wins 1994-1995 through 1990-1991
56 wins 1993-1994 through 1989-1990
55.8 wins 1992-1993 through 1988-1989
55.6 wins (2004-2005 through 2008-2009) *********
54.2 wins 1995-1996 through 1991-1992

It's Sarver's fault that Amare doesn't like playing defense regularly, needed surgery on his knee, and got his eye poked. It's Sarver's fault that JJ got his face broken. It's Sarver's fault that Horry body blocked Nash and Diaw and Amare got suspended. It's Sarver's fault for Atlanta winning the lottery and the Suns losing a lottery pick. It's Sarver's fault that Maggie Simpson doesn't talk.

Lighten up a bit on the guy. Here I am looking like some kind of plant for Sarver. I don't love the guy. He probably just needs a better PR guy and a little luck to come his way. The Suns franchise and us fans certainly would like a visit from Lady Luck.
 

mojorizen7

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Posts
9,165
Reaction score
472
Location
In a van...down by the river.
Sarver has spent $$$, he just hasn't spent wisely.
Our GM's have had good intentions, but have made mistakes.
Our drafts have been instrumentally disastrous.
It's getting worse....there's no recovery plan......nobody wants to play here. Hell, nobody wants to even retire here(see B.Wallace)
You must be registered for see images attach


Please sell the team & go back to managing a business without a fanbase.
 

shazaam6

Censor this
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Posts
1,126
Reaction score
4
Sarver must have thought he had the golden touch when he bought the team and they went balistic under d'antoni, Nash and Amare, but really he has the touch of shi....something else. How else do you explain that the team has not added any significant pieces since he started with what JC and BC left him. In fact the Joe Johnson fiasco was the first indication that he was not going to be good at this.
 

leclerc

The smooth operator
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Posts
2,399
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Norway
I still get a little misty when I think about young Steve, Amare on good knees and Joe in Suns uniform.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
46,389
Reaction score
16,890
Location
Round Rock, TX
Geez, it's not like the Colangelo's spent money wisely either. Or made great moves all the time. Sarver is inept as an owner, but what exactly is everyone comparing it to? Oh yeah, the same guys that traded for Penny Hardaway and Hot Rod Williams and signed Luc Longley to a huge contract.

Sarver is not a good owner, but I'm tired of everyone making the Colangelo's out to be gods. They produced some fun seasons, but they also produced 37 years of NOTHING to show for it. Sarver has done the exact same thing--produced some fun seasons but in those 5 years, he has nothing to show for it. The key figure there is 5 years.

In 37 years, if Sarver is still owner of this team and we haven't won a title, then there will be plenty of room to talk.
 

Griffin

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Posts
3,726
Reaction score
1
Location
EU
Geez, it's not like the Colangelo's spent money wisely either. Or made great moves all the time. Sarver is inept as an owner, but what exactly is everyone comparing it to? Oh yeah, the same guys that traded for Penny Hardaway and Hot Rod Williams and signed Luc Longley to a huge contract.
Personally, it's not the trades or free agent signings that I have a problem with. With those, there is always some risk involved. What I have a problem with are moves that you know are not very wise even before they are made, such as trading draft picks away before you know who's available, selling draft picks for cash, or giving away draft picks or useful players to unload already-expiring contracts. I can live with the Shaq trade or even the JRich trade and Banks signing, because these moves were made for the right reasons, even if they didn't exactly pan out.
 

Gaddabout

Plucky Comic Relief
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Posts
16,043
Reaction score
11
Location
Gilbert
Geez, it's not like the Colangelo's spent money wisely either. Or made great moves all the time. Sarver is inept as an owner, but what exactly is everyone comparing it to? Oh yeah, the same guys that traded for Penny Hardaway and Hot Rod Williams and signed Luc Longley to a huge contract.

Sarver is not a good owner, but I'm tired of everyone making the Colangelo's out to be gods. They produced some fun seasons, but they also produced 37 years of NOTHING to show for it. Sarver has done the exact same thing--produced some fun seasons but in those 5 years, he has nothing to show for it. The key figure there is 5 years.

In 37 years, if Sarver is still owner of this team and we haven't won a title, then there will be plenty of room to talk.

Chap, I wonder how many on this thread remember Colangelo before he became (minority/general managing partner) "owner." For pretty much the first 20 years of the Suns existence Colangelo was a pawn for Dial, who owned most of the team. Colangelo was constantly pushed into making awful trade after awful trade because ownership didn't want to pay "big city" salaries. Even the DJ-for-Robey trade was made in the name of money. People forget that.

Colangelo was the most skewered sports figure in all of Phoenix. Many couldn't believe he survived the drug scandal. Ownership wanted to sell and move the team to San Diego (IIRC).

Colangelo "bought" the team primarily because he wanted to repair his name. It was his personal agenda to put a champion on the floor. It was pretty easy for him the first 10 years to throw money every which way -- BECAUSE IT WASN'T HIS MONEY. He sold his "partners" on the idea that if you spend the money it will come back in spades with sell outs, merchandising whatever.

Well, at the end of the day, that business plan didn't work in basketball and, for all of the 2001 WS bluster, the D-Backs almost folded six years into operation under the same business plan.

When Colangelo stepped away from the Suns he walked with $10 million. That's $10 million of a franchise that was valued at nearly half a billion. His full cash investment in the Suns was believed to be about $1 million. After all, even as a long-time GM, Colangelo never made the kind of money that could buy a sports franchise.

I think Colangelo was savvy and he worked very hard to serve the sports fans in this town ... in so many ways he was a slave to their impression of him. OTOH, he created this false image of being a godfather of Phoenix pro sports, when in reality he was always at the proverbial table playing with other people's money. If they didn't like him so much, more than a few investors in his two franchises probably could have sued (and won) for Colangelo's breach of fiduciary responsibility. Some close to the Suns in that era have speculated (in private) that if Sarver hadn't bought the team, Colangelo would have had to sell everything to pay off debts to investors on either side of the ledger.

Anyway, I think Suns fans were spoiled during those years because Colangelo made Suns fans feel like they were supporting a real big city team. In reality, the Suns, the D-Backs, and all the other teams are finally showing that Phoenix is NOT a big city. It's a really big medium market and ownership that has every intention of sticking around has to make smart money decisions.

I'm still no fan of Sarver -- I'm certain you're not defending him here, either, but let's face it, this management team has no vision for what kind of team they want to be. At least Colangelo always had a vision, for better or worse, always had a plan that homer fans could buy into, to drink the kool aid. That's what separates Sarver from Colangelo. That's why the fans can wax on about the golden JC years while bitching about Sarver.
 

shazaam6

Censor this
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Posts
1,126
Reaction score
4
Thanks for the history lesson but Sarver sucks bottomline. HE had something great and you know it. It is screwed up now. How did that happen? It took 5 years but HE did it. Championship or not we were better off with JC or BC than with RS and SK. That's a fact jack.
 

Gaddabout

Plucky Comic Relief
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Posts
16,043
Reaction score
11
Location
Gilbert
Championship or not we were better off with JC or BC than with RS and SK. That's a fact jack.

JC was over-extended. He sold because he had no money. He sold before he could ruin his legacy. The Suns would've been MUCH worse off if JC was still around. No Nash, Stoudemire probably traded, all kinds of cost-cutting moves.

BC left because he didn't want to do what Sarver now has Kerr doing, which is attempting to manage the salary Colangelo left him with.

Better is relative to time and situation. I'm no Sarver fan, but I'm not going to pretend like Colangelo was golden. I wish Arte Moreno had bought the Suns.
 

HooverDam

Registered User
Joined
May 21, 2005
Posts
6,560
Reaction score
0
the Colangelo's...they produced some fun seasons, but they also produced 37 years of NOTHING to show for it.

Really? Nothing to show for it? Im so sick of this childish mentality with sports fans. In 37 years you got nothing out of the Suns since they fell short of winning the whole deal? What about all the fun memories with your friends and family? What about going to the fun runner up parade in 93? What about the way they've galvanized the community and brought the city together (something especially difficult in our city of primarily non natives)?

Most fans get way too hung up on this notion of 'if you don't win the title it was worthless.' No, thats stupid, the journey was fun. Sure the Suns didn't win the title under Cotton, Westphal or D'Antoni, but didn't you have fun? Isn't that what sports is about- having fun?

It reminds me of a child on a road trip asking "are we there yet?" as they whiz by beautiful awe inspiring scenery. Have fun, look out the window, the trip is as or more important than the destination. Enjoy the journey, the destination is just a cherry on top.
 

chickenhead

Registered User
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Posts
3,109
Reaction score
77
I wish Arte Moreno had bought the Suns.

If only. Maybe it could still happen. He won't be buying the Diamondbacks when he has the Angels, the Bidwills would never buy the Cards, and someone will probably relocate the Coyotes. As the years go buy the Suns are probably the best local candidate if he's interested.
 
OP
OP
TucsonDevil

TucsonDevil

Good to be back!
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
2,575
Reaction score
19
Location
SLC, UT
Gaddabout, your history lesson post was very good. However, you failed to include one HUGE contribution JC had with the Suns and the NBA. He was respected and admired. David Stern and the NBA thought very highly of him, as did the other owners in the league. FAs would chose the Suns over similar offers due to the respect the franchise had in the league. This is why JC was chosen to run USA Basketball. Period.

Sarver has pissed that away in spades. I know he is much more fiscally responsible than JC, but that doesn't mean he is a good owner for a Sports Franchise. He would be much better suited to running GM, government health-care, or local market. Any and all success Sarver has had can be directly linked to JC and BC decisions made before their exits.
 

boisesuns

Standing Tall And Traded
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
4,076
Reaction score
336
Location
Boise, ID
I think there were many things to get excited for about the suns over the years, but the last year or so something has changed in me. I was usually in the "Half Full" camp, but lately i've seemed to not care as much about the team and their results.

Maybe i'm now looking at it more objectively, or some of the realists on here have rubbed off on me. I know it's a sport and it's entertainment, but at a certain point you get worn out with the product that's being put on the court and realizing it won't be able to win a title.

I wont ever jump ship or bandwagon to another team, but it seems like the suns just don't have or aren't doing what it takes to win a title. I enjoy talking suns, but reality has set in on their chances. Even with the big win years and the title run, we still couldn't get over the hump.

If the suns were a stock, I would have sold a few years ago.

:)
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,493
Reaction score
14,647
Really? Nothing to show for it? Im so sick of this childish mentality with sports fans. In 37 years you got nothing out of the Suns since they fell short of winning the whole deal? What about all the fun memories with your friends and family? What about going to the fun runner up parade in 93? What about the way they've galvanized the community and brought the city together (something especially difficult in our city of primarily non natives)?

Most fans get way too hung up on this notion of 'if you don't win the title it was worthless.' No, thats stupid, the journey was fun. Sure the Suns didn't win the title under Cotton, Westphal or D'Antoni, but didn't you have fun? Isn't that what sports is about- having fun?

It reminds me of a child on a road trip asking "are we there yet?" as they whiz by beautiful awe inspiring scenery. Have fun, look out the window, the trip is as or more important than the destination. Enjoy the journey, the destination is just a cherry on top.


Best post of the thread. Again, if you're mentality is that only a championship is necessary for an enjoyable experience, you're going to be a pretty miserable sports fan.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,407
Reaction score
15,455
Location
Arizona
Really? Nothing to show for it? Im so sick of this childish mentality with sports fans. In 37 years you got nothing out of the Suns since they fell short of winning the whole deal? What about all the fun memories with your friends and family? What about going to the fun runner up parade in 93? What about the way they've galvanized the community and brought the city together (something especially difficult in our city of primarily non natives)?

Most fans get way too hung up on this notion of 'if you don't win the title it was worthless.' No, thats stupid, the journey was fun. Sure the Suns didn't win the title under Cotton, Westphal or D'Antoni, but didn't you have fun? Isn't that what sports is about- having fun?

It reminds me of a child on a road trip asking "are we there yet?" as they whiz by beautiful awe inspiring scenery. Have fun, look out the window, the trip is as or more important than the destination. Enjoy the journey, the destination is just a cherry on top.

Using your analogy, the kids would say "are we there yet" for eternity because you would never reach your destination (winning a title). I understand what your saying and you do have some valid points. The Suns have accomplished some of the things that you have mentioned above. However, the Suns have yet to reach their destination.

It's the equivalent of taking a trip that is suppose to last 8 hours, only you keep getting diverted and it has now become the never ending trip. Very few people would hop into a car to go to Disneyland and end up being satisfied that they never got there regardless of how pretty the ride was.

Sure, you got to see some fun things along the way and "enjoy the scenery". However, sooner or later people stop caring about the scenery if you never reach your destination. Sooner or later everyone in that car (not just the kids) will be asking "are we there yet".

This is not some new franchise with impatient fans. At some point the question goes from being childish to logical. After 40 years, I think many fans are at that point...."are we there yet" and justifiably so.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Posts
74
Reaction score
0
After 40 years, I think many fans are at that point...."are we there yet"?

I dunno about this family vacation analogy. The quest for the ring is more like Frodo's quest to destroy the ring. It's more like the Amazing Race. There's a chance of failure.

The chances of me choosing to go to on a road trip and expecting to arrive are a little higher than the Suns chances to winning the championship.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
552,807
Posts
5,403,027
Members
6,313
Latest member
50 year card fan
Top