Just looking to pile on...

[Covert Rain]

I dunno about this family vacation analogy. The quest for the ring is more like Frodo's quest to destroy the ring. It's more like the Amazing Race. There's a chance of failure.

The chances of me choosing to go to on a road trip and expecting to arrive are a little higher than the Suns chances to winning the championship.

Huge difference. You usually only get one shot at the Amazing Race. With sports team you get a shot every single season. There is always the hope of next season. It's much easier to swallow "I gave it a try" if you know it's your only shot. When you have taken that shot for 40 years and still have not gotten there...it's a different pill to swallow and the expectations are completely different.

 

[HooverDam]

SteelDog, my point wasn't to take the analogy quite that literally or extrapolate it out. My point is saying the Suns have 'nothing to show' for their 40+ years of existence is silly. We've all had fun, right? More good times than bad, right? In fact the good times have FAR outweighed the bad times with this organization, its one of the winningest in the NBA.

Im not saying I dont want the Suns to win the title, Ill be crying like a baby the day they do, but the long journey will have made it all the more worthwhile. While I was thrilled in 2001 when the D'backs won it all as Im sure many of you were too, we'd be lying if we said it meant as much as when the Red Sox won after a long draught. The sometimes painful journey will make the destination sweeter, but to say the journey so far has been for not, is wrong I think.

 

[chickenhead]

+1 on Colangelo bringing a measure of respect to the Suns that Sarver has not. There are a lot of respected owners who don't get a ring. Seeing Ralph Wilson at the Hall of Fame game the other night reminded me of that.

 

[Covert Rain]

SteelDog, my point wasn't to take the analogy quite that literally or extrapolate it out. My point is saying the Suns have 'nothing to show' for their 40+ years of existence is silly. We've all had fun, right? More good times than bad, right? In fact the good times have FAR outweighed the bad times with this organization, its one of the winningest in the NBA.

Im not saying I dont want the Suns to win the title, Ill be crying like a baby the day they do, but the long journey will have made it all the more worthwhile. While I was thrilled in 2001 when the D'backs won it all as Im sure many of you were too, we'd be lying if we said it meant as much as when the Red Sox won after a long draught. The sometimes painful journey will make the destination sweeter, but to say the journey so far has been for not, is wrong I think.

I think under that same token your taking the fact that people say "we have nothing to show for it" too literal as well. I don't know very many Suns fans that don't remember or appreciate the fun we have had over the years. I think most Suns fans are saying "nothing to show for it" as a way of expressing the Suns have not gotten there yet and they are sick of it. They are saying that is no longer enough. I think fans are more in that camp. I know I am. Yes, I have had fun but after all this time...having fun is not enough. Anything less then a title is not enough.

 

[HooverDam]

Anything less then a title is not enough.

Well don't watch next season or probably the next few then!

 

[Covert Rain]

Well don't watch next season or probably the next few then!

I will always watch. I just reserve the right to roast this team until they get it done.

 

[Griffin]

I think most Suns fans are saying "nothing to show for it" as a way of expressing the Suns have not gotten there yet and they are sick of it. They are saying that is no longer enough. I think fans are more in that camp. I know I am. Yes, I have had fun but after all this time...having fun is not enough. Anything less then a title is not enough.

So, had the Suns won a single title say around 30 years ago, would your attitude towards this team be different now? Would it be okay then to settle for anything less than a title today? After all, you could no longer argue that the Suns "have not gotten there." Would that single title 30 years ago make up for not winning it all since then?

Personally, I think people get caught up a little too much with the fact that this franchise have never won a title, as if that single title in the 1960's or 70's should make the fans feel more proud today. Should it? Let's face it, as far as championship futility is concerned, the Suns are in the majority not the minority. In the last 29 seasons, only 8 teams have won a title, with a group of six teams grabbing all but two of them. The Hawks have one title to show for their 60 years of existence, back in '59. The Knicks have 2 titles, but they haven't won one since '73. The Kings' only title came in '51. Blazers '77. Wizards '78. Bucks '71. Jazz, Cavs, Nuggets, Mavs never won it. The list goes on.

So is the real complaint here that the Suns have never won a single title, or that the Suns are not part of the "elite" few teams that have won a title recently and keep winning it over and over?

 

[TucsonDevil]

In the last 29 seasons, only 8 teams have won a title, with a group of six teams grabbing all but two of them.

So it seems that the difference between the franchise winners and franchise losers is an ultra talented player that gives them opportunity each year, until things fall in their favor. (Jordan and Bulls, Magic and Lakers, Hakeem and Rockets, Bird and Celtics, etc...)

So all we have to do is endure a horrible season (like the one upcoming) and draft a stud with our high draft pick... oh wait...

 

[Superbone]

Excellent discussion, fellas.

Only one team wins the title each year. You can't expect to win it and everything else is failure. If that's your attitude, you're going to be frequently disappointed.

Everything has to come together to win the title. We were so, so close the year of the Amare suspension.

Heck, I was a fan back in '75-'76 when we made an improbable run to the championship series. You just never know what might happen in any particular season.

 

[Superbone]

So it seems that the difference between the franchise winners and franchise losers is an ultra talented player that gives them opportunity each year, until things fall in their favor. (Jordan and Bulls, Magic and Lakers, Hakeem and Rockets, Bird and Celtics, etc...)

So all we have to do is endure a horrible season (like the one upcoming) and draft a stud with our high draft pick... oh wait...

You forgot:

"At least it's lottery protected... oh, wait..."

 

[mojorizen7]

back to the road trip analogy for a sec.
I wouldn't be as hard on dad never getting to our destination if he wouldn't be so damned determined to choose basically the same route every year for the last 40 yrs....it isn't working and the scenery is all too familiar.
Interstate "O" is tired........lets try Interstate "D" for a change.

 

[Yuma]

So, had the Suns won a single title say around 30 years ago, would your attitude towards this team be different now? Would it be okay then to settle for anything less than a title today? After all, you could no longer argue that the Suns "have not gotten there." Would that single title 30 years ago make up for not winning it all since then?

Personally, I think people get caught up a little too much with the fact that this franchise have never won a title, as if that single title in the 1960's or 70's should make the fans feel more proud today. Should it? Let's face it, as far as championship futility is concerned, the Suns are in the majority not the minority. In the last 29 seasons, only 8 teams have won a title, with a group of six teams grabbing all but two of them. The Hawks have one title to show for their 60 years of existence, back in '59. The Knicks have 2 titles, but they haven't won one since '73. The Kings' only title came in '51. Blazers '77. Wizards '78. Bucks '71. Jazz, Cavs, Nuggets, Mavs never won it. The list goes on.

So is the real complaint here that the Suns have never won a single title, or that the Suns are not part of the "elite" few teams that have won a title recently and keep winning it over and over?

No! My complaint is I want them to win at least ONE title BEFORE I die!

 

[Yuma]

back to the road trip analogy for a sec.
I wouldn't be as hard on dad never getting to our destination if he wouldn't be so damned determined to choose basically the same route every year for the last 40 yrs....it isn't working and the scenery is all too familiar.
Interstate "O" is tired........lets try Interstate "D" for a change.

Forget the road trip analogy! Here's a new one:

It's like getting lap dances for 40 years! Yeah it's fun. Good times. Good memories. At some point, you just want to go all the way just once!

 

[Superbone]

Yeah, I can't wait for the Suns to give me a "happy ending."

 

[Superbone]

No! My complaint is I want them to win at least ONE title BEFORE I die!

You and me both, man. You and me both...

 

[Covert Rain]

So, had the Suns won a single title say around 30 years ago, would your attitude towards this team be different now? Would it be okay then to settle for anything less than a title today? After all, you could no longer argue that the Suns "have not gotten there." Would that single title 30 years ago make up for not winning it all since then?

Good question. I guess for me it would depend on the time frame between. I would be perfectly satisfied if this team one a title every 10 years or so. I could deal with that. However, if it has been 30 years since the last I would probably feel much the same I do now. I mean the Diamondbacks have won a title 8 years ago and I feel satisfied that at least they have gotten it done. Now if I went another 20 years without seeing them with a title, I would have a problem with that.

So is the real complaint here that the Suns have never won a single title, or that the Suns are not part of the "elite" few teams that have won a title recently and keep winning it over and over?

To me it's about current expectation. You have to walk before you run. My only expectation for this team is that they win one first. Then maybe if this team was show to always be in the mix, I might raise my expectations to say you should get one every now and then. However, I am not there yet with the team.

To have the talent that has come through this organization and to exist as long as this team has without a title is just ridiculous to me. I know this team can't win a title every year and I wouldn't expect that. However, are not the Suns the 4th highest winning franchise? Shouldn't the expectation be that you have some rings to show for it? I don't think that is out of the question. If we were one of the worst franchises in the land maybe my expectations wouldn't be so high but that is not the case.

Hell ....even if my expectations were rock bottom, it's been proven by the Cards that even bottom feeders eventually float up to the top once in a while.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Speaking of the Cards... Do you think that Sarver has begun to realize that Phoenix always has been and always will be a 'Football' Town? The interest in the Suns is about to take an even lower dive, unless he comes up with a plan... and quick.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I'm basically a lurker here on this board, but this is one of the better threads I've seen here. Thanks for the lively spirited discussion.

For my own part, I can remember James Edwards loafing from one end of the court to the other and I'm bitter that he won a title with the Pistons and none of my favorite players with the Suns have one.

 

[HooverDam]

I think (as Ive stated before) the whole being an offensive team versus a defensive team in hoops is VASTLY over rated. As TucsonDevil was getting at, in hoops because of how few players are on the court, the team with the best players almost always win. Get Duncan, Shaq, Jordan or Kobe and you win titles in the NBA. Get Amare and you have tons of fun but probably fall short. Most any 'style' can win if you have the players to play that style and your players are the best.

 

[Chaplin]

I think most of you misunderstood what my point was.

I don't like Sarver, that much is certain (I actually dislike Kerr a lot more). However, people are treating the Colangelo's like everything they touched was gold, and that is not true. As far as providing a fun team to watch, well, the Colangelo's did that for many years. For 3 or 4 of Sarver's 5, he did the same thing.

You guys do have a very solid point in the "basketball respect" thing. Sarver it appears has none of that, although even a blind man can see that Steve Kerr has some respect around the league. Probably because of his television work before he was a GM. But his reputation is definitely taking a hit.

The problem here is this 40 year wait, and what looks like to be several more years of waiting for that elusive championship. The young kids on this board don't really understand, but guys like Errntknight and BC certainly can feel the weight of such a long time, fun years or no, without a title.

But memory is extremely short-term when it comes to sports. I'm very proud of a team that was in what many consider to be the greatest game in the history of the NBA, even though we lost and even though it was 30 years ago. But nobody younger than 25 cares or even knows that it even happened.

Oh well. I guess I'm just tired of getting on this board and seeing every single post be so extremely negative all the time, whether I agree with the sentiment or not. Sorry guys.

 

[HooverDam]

Two more thoughts:

On the whole championship thing, a perhaps interesting question is, would you trade the Suns franchise history for the Bucks? Came into the league in the same year, both have 2 conference titles but the Bucks won it all one time. Overall winning percentage the Suns are superior and the Bucks have been somewhere between mediocre and awful forever now (though under Karl they had some good teams, but not great). The Bucks got to that higher level one time but overall I'd say I'd probably keep the Suns history.

On Colangelo: He of course didn't do everything perfect and it was especially difficult for him back when Phoenix was a very small and not even middle market like it is today. However the Suns all time winning percentage speaks for itself, I always felt Colangelo was trying to win and for the most part seemed to have a plan, the latter is certainly more than I can say for Sarver/Kerr.

Furthermore, I felt like JC not only tried to do what was best for the Suns, but what was best for the Valley. I think that endured him to a lot of people, myself included. In a city so lacking in Civic Leaders JC did a pretty good job of that. When it came time to build the new arena he took a leap of faith in downtown and we're finally starting to see the payoff of that. He was/is always very involved in groups like Valley Forward and boosted Phoenix at every opportunity he got. Sarver lives in San Diego, he doesn't really give two craps about the Valley and so in that regard he falls short of JC in my eyes big time.

 

[elindholm]

The whole championship fixation is a product of the internet. Trolls from the "haves" incessantly taunt fans of the "have-nots." Even though Suns fans have enjoyed their long history of above-average success, the constant assault of internet chest-puffers does become wearisome. Most Suns fans wouldn't be nearly so uptight about the franchise's failure to win a title if they didn't have to deal with obnoxious Lakers fans on a regular basis.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Best post of the thread. Again, if you're mentality is that only a championship is necessary for an enjoyable experience, you're going to be a pretty miserable sports fan.

LOL - These are the same fans calling for D'Antonis head two years ago.

 

[BC867]

Even the DJ-for-Robey trade was made in the name of money. People forget that.

Addressing this point, there was more to it than money.

The Little General (shifty eyes darting left and right) Coach John MacLeod couldn't cope with outspoken players -- y'know, the aggressive kind who do win Championships.

DJ, the best defensive Guard in the NBA and a player who won Championships with the other teams he played with.

Mo Lucas, the enforcer PF who had previously won a Championship, but like Amare, had to cover the Center position.

It was the Suns legacy. They were called the finesse team of the NBA and, with the short exception of Shaq, have never been anything else.

And now we're right back in that position for next season.

As so many have pointed out in this thread, it's not a question of spending money, it's one of spending money wisely. And whether ownership wants a team who puts on a show during the regular season, or one which sustains through the playoffs.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Addressing this point, there was more to it than money.

The Little General (shifty eyes darting left and right) Coach John MacLeod couldn't cope with outspoken players -- y'know, the aggressive kind who do win Championships.

DJ, the best defensive Guard in the NBA and a player who won Championships with the other teams he played with.

Mo Lucas, the enforcer PF who had previously won a Championship, but like Amare, had to cover the Center position.

It was the Suns legacy. They were called the finesse team of the NBA and, with the short exception of Shaq, have never been anything else.

And now we're right back in that position for next season.

As so many have pointed out in this thread, it's not a question of spending money, it's one of spending money wisely. And whether ownership wants a team who puts on a show during the regular season, or one which sustains through the playoffs.

That trade was also made before JC was part of the ownership team. There were things he had to do because they were dictated by owners. That's part of why he put together a group to buy the team.

JC made mistakes, but those mistakes were always in the pursuit of a championship.

The Googs trade was made to appease Sarver.

Sarver is horrible.