K1

[DVontel]

Who said anything about race?

He couldn’t help it.

 

[Big D]

If you read the above and think that K1 is the problem on this team....well then lets examine this:

The criticisms I have seen laid at Murray:

Bad Attitude
Bad Leader
Can't read defenses/isn't smart enough
Is only a running QB
Poor fundamentals
Doesn't work hard enough


What possibly could be leading those sort of criticisms in the face of a season like above

Look I like Kyler. Wore his Jersey on Saturday. But to answer the question:

Interceptions
Fumbles
Batted balls at the LOS
Declining stats over the 2nd half of the season
3-5 record over the last 8 games

Maybe it’s just a rough patch or growing pains or how ever you want to put it, but there is plenty to criticize and question within reason.

Also, let’s be honest here. Posting all time Cardinals QB season stats is not exactly like posting all time Yankees season batting statistics or Atlanta Braves all time season pitching statistics.

From a historical standpoint this franchise and specifically at that position has let’s just say left a lot to be desired over the years. I’m not sure ranking Murray against Cardinals QB seasons past is really doing him any favors.

 

[Chopper0080]

If you read the above and think that K1 is the problem on this team....well then lets examine this:

The criticisms I have seen laid at Murray:

Bad Attitude
Bad Leader
Can't read defenses/isn't smart enough
Is only a running QB
Poor fundamentals
Doesn't work hard enough


What possibly could be leading those sort of criticisms in the face of a season like above

Let's look at the reasons these concerns are made...because I feel like they are kinda valid.

Bad attitude...this one comes from Kyler's body language and demeanor especially when things aren't going well. It comes off as disengagement/poutiness and it is more likely self reflection and internal dialogue. That said, it is there to the point Keim has addressed it.

Bad leader...this one comes from the same as the attitude. Kyler is rarely, if ever, seen communicating with his teammates other than Hop, especially when things are going poorly. He isn't shown encouraging his guys or talking to his line. He is often shown by himself.

Can't read defenses (I won't address the smart enough because that is not valid)...Comes from several really bad mistakes and throwing the ball into double and triple coverage at times. And to be fair, most critiques on this have also acknowledged that he is young and inexperienced. Same goes with his struggles identify blitzers.

Running is what he does best. I would argue with anyone who says different.

Poor fundamentals...back foot throws, bad pocket mechanics and awareness, delay of game penalties, fumbles, staring down WRs, and taking bad sacks. We see these too regularly to not find them an issue.

Work hard. Probably because we see the same mistakes over and mover again. I would also guess it is because he seems to struggle with fundamentals which most people equate to easy things that just take time and commitment.

I have no issue if people disagree that any of these are serious issues, but to not acknowledge that they exist is kinda silly IMO.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You said he has to "want to" (as if he might not) he "has to accept he isn't good enough" (as if he is too egotistical) and "has to swallow a tough pill" (questioning willingness) and "work hard enough" (questioning work ethic).

Yes, that is going at his character, not his play.

And, I am plenty calm.

No... you're misinterpreting and reading into my comments. Which for this place - is of course quite common...
My comments apply to any rookie, or any player for that matter who is seeking to reach higher levels of performance.
Kyler has rarely, IF EVER, had to bust it like he has to now, just to be competitive...let alone win. He has never, to this degree, had to look in the mirror and while seeing a freakish talent, realize that what is looking back at him ain't good enough!
I have not and am not now, saying he isn't thinking this way... or, that he doesn't want to put in the required extra effort and work off the field. I am simply stating that this is what is required if we are to see Kyler and the Cardinals take their performance and win production to the next level.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Look I like Kyler. Wore his Jersey on Saturday. But to answer the question:

Interceptions
Fumbles
Batted balls at the LOS
Declining stats over the 2nd half of the season
3-5 record over the last 8 games

Maybe it’s just a rough patch or growing pains or how ever you want to put it, but there is plenty to criticize and question within reason.

Also, let’s be honest here. Posting all time Cardinals QB season stats is not exactly like posting all time Yankees season batting statistics or Atlanta Braves all time season pitching statistics.

From a historical standpoint this franchise and specifically at that position has let’s just say left a lot to be desired over the years. I’m not sure ranking Murray against Cardinals QB seasons past is really doing him any favors.

 

[ajcardfan]

Look I like Kyler. Wore his Jersey on Saturday. But to answer the question:

Interceptions
Fumbles
Batted balls at the LOS
Declining stats over the 2nd half of the season
3-5 record over the last 8 games

Maybe it’s just a rough patch or growing pains or how ever you want to put it, but there is plenty to criticize and question within reason.

Also, let’s be honest here. Posting all time Cardinals QB season stats is not exactly like posting all time Yankees season batting statistics or Atlanta Braves all time season pitching statistics.

From a historical standpoint this franchise and specifically at that position has let’s just say left a lot to be desired over the years. I’m not sure ranking Murray against Cardinals QB seasons past is really doing him any favors.

So, what are we supposed to compare him to if it's not good for him to be compared to the QBs we Cards fans have watched for 34 years?

BTW, you are pointing out things about his play, not his character. I appreciate that, because those are facts for objective discussions.

 

[ajcardfan]

No... you're misinterpreting and reading into my comments. Which for this place - is of course quite common...
My comments apply to any rookie, or any player for that matter who is seeking to reach higher levels of performance.
Kyler has rarely, IF EVER, had to bust it like he has to now, just to be competitive...let alone win. He has never, to this degree, had to look in the mirror and while seeing a freakish talent, realize that what is looking back at him ain't good enough!
I have not and am not now, saying he isn't thinking this way... or, that he doesn't want to put in the required extra effort and work off the field. I am simply stating that this is what is required if we are to see Kyler and the Cardinals take their performance and win production to the next level.

You said what you said the way you said it. If you have to do this much explanation to point out what you were really saying, maybe make it clearer in the first place?

 

[Big D]

So, what are we supposed to compare him to if it's not good for him to be compared to the QBs we Cards fans have watched for 34 years?

Long term successful, SB winning QBs?

There are a number of them currently playing in fact.

 

[juza76]

I would seriously consider the best seasons since Warner 2008 and Palmer 2015 as being well on the way to establishing a serious change in culture for a guy who has started 1 season in college and 2 in the pros.

You guys have to take this stuff in the proper context.

I wasn't talking about you but how this aspect can be perceived by the organization
Its a starting point or arrival point

 

[ajcardfan]

Long term successful, SB winning QBs?

There are a number of them currently playing in fact.

Ok. You can do that.

Football is the ultimate team sport and not all franchises are equal. You can compare QBs head to head, but it is impossible to make the field level and fair.

 

[Big D]

Ok. You can do that.

Football is the ultimate team sport and not all franchises are equal. You can compare QBs head to head, but it is impossible to make the field level and fair.

Well I guess that begs the question of how exactly do you measure success in a league where you are competing directly against those other franchises and players?

 

[82CardsGrad]

You said what you said the way you said it. If you have to do this much explanation to point out what you were really saying, maybe make it clearer in the first place?

No... how ‘bout you just read my comments and don’t attempt to twist them?
My comments were quite clear.

 

[ajcardfan]

No... how ‘bout you just read my comments and don’t attempt to twist them?
My comments were quite clear.

They were clear.

And you had to spend a lot typing to point out what you were really saying. I can only take what you type at face value, I can't read your mind.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would say the 3-5 in the last 8 has to be in context. we had 2 bad losses in there, SF Saturday, and the Patriots game. neither team is a playoff team. Kyler didn't play well against NE but Kirk dropped a TD pass right in his hands, the next play was almost a TD to Keesean overturned on replay, then Drake clearly scored but it was ruled short on the field and even though human anatomy made it obvious based on where his lower body was that he scored, the replay official couldn't clearly see the ball so by rule, they had to stick to the call. That, and Zane missing another FG and we lost by 3 points. if they get the call on Drake right we win that game,If Kirk makes the catch we win, if Zane makes the FG too we win by a TD. So not a great game by Kyler but we lost 10 points due to no fault of his.

Sat I still say that's a drop on Kirk on the first drive, that means we aren't going for 2 after the Drake TD so you replay that it's 20-17 and it's HIGHLY unlikely Kliff is going to go for it on 4th down if we're winning 17-14 instead of losing 14-12, so they may not have even scored the TD to go ahead. Even if they do, Kyler doesn't have to be as aggressive only being down 20-17, he may still have thrown the INT, he might not have knowing the FG ties it. So again he didn't play that well at all, but there were multiple things that if not done, we still win that game. yes the throw to Kirk was high, but NFL Wr's catch that ball week after week.

The other 3 losses were to Miami, a playoff team, Seattle a playoff team, and the Rams who have arguably the best defense in the NFL. We could have beaten Miami, again Zane cost us there Kyler had 3 passing TDs one rushing 31 points put up we lost because of the defense, not him. Seattle Kyler played ok, not great, just not well enough to win against a good team. Rams he played terribly.

he is not perfect, he needs to get better but he is not the only guy. D Hop has helped him out with some great catches, Fitz did against Philly, Daniels turned a pick into a TD, I think in the Miami game. We need more of that.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

His deep ball is his most consistent weapon.

3 pass completions over 10 yards vs the Niners. Bravo.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Rosen and what ever qb you wanted is trash.

The "trash" I wanted was the MVP last season.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I never heard of Keim being sold on drafting Murray until later in the year after he hired Kingsbury.

Keim always lamented passing on Russ Wilson and wanted himself a mini-Russ.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

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[DVontel]

3 pass completions over 10 yards vs the Niners. Bravo.

You counting drops....?

 

[Russ Smith]

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IIRC that's the play early in the game where it looked like Kyler thought Daniels caught the ball and was down. It was literally the first play of the game and I think Kyler was wanting Kliff to challenge the call it was incompletely but Kliff wasn't sure enough to risk a TO on the first play of the game. 2 plays later he hit the 38 yarder to Kirk

I even posted about it in the game thread because it was so odd, Kyler clearly seemed to think it was a catch and he wanted the review.

 

[SoonerLou]

The "trash" I wanted was the MVP last season.

I love Lamar, but I'm not sure he's ready to be on a team thats top 10 in passing attempts.

Ravens are basically allowing him to be early Russell Wilson, win big and make plays until he's ready.

Having said that he was dominant last year running the football and their redzone passing was excellent.

 

[SoonerLou]

Now only if he could work hard, be a better leader and stop being a bad teammate we might have something.

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[SoonerLou]

Seriously. Of all the people YOU have to play the race card? Are you trying to bait us into a ban?

Maybe it's the fact that stats don't say everything. Your "How he compares to previous Cards QB's" list has a lot of really bad QB's on it for a start. It also has a lot of QB's that played in a very different era of football. It certainly doesn't have many (or any?) #1 draft picks on it.

So comparing where he stands against a bunch of were never good, or past their prime QB's that played in a time where 3000 yards was considered a good passing year is a BS comparison from the start.

The only fair comparison is against his peers. In this season, or in the same situation he is now.

And the simple fact is that he isn't where he should be for a player of his talent. Just to set fire to that race card I'd take 2nd year Deshaun Watson over 2nd year Kyler all day long. Obviously 2nd year Mahomes too. I'd take 2nd year Lamar also. Just to be fair to the white boys I've seen more thats impressed me from Justin Herbert than I saw from Kyler last year too.

Now saying all that, I think Kyler has incredible talent and could be elite. But he's not where he should be. I've seen less talented guys further along than Kyler at this point which is why the work ethic questions are raised.

There's no excuses next year. He will have had his third offseason. All the "He's still learning" excuses go away.

Lets judge them as players.
Deshaun has the edge in passer rating as you pointed out earlier. Although I honestly think some of Kyler's TD runs essentially stolen TD passes from him to boost that rating. But whatever.

Kyler's is 13th in QBR (69)
Deshaun was 13th in QBR (61)

2018
11. DESHAUN WATSON, HOUSTON TEXANS
Overall Grade: 82.6
Watson made the best of one of the NFL’s worst offensive lines en route to a playoff berth, and that can’t be overstated. He led the NFL in total pressured dropbacks (281) and passer rating under pressure (88.2).


83.2
Kyler Murray | Arizona Cardinals QB | NFL and PFF stats | PFF

I have no problem if you prefer 2nd year Deshaun. He was a young stud, but I dont see how Kyler isnt on the same level (2nd year Deshaun).

 

[BritCard]

Lets judge them as players.
Deshaun has the edge in passer rating as you pointed out earlier. Although I honestly think some of Kyler's TD runs essentially stolen TD passes from him to boost that rating. But whatever.

Kyler's is 13th in QBR (69)
Deshaun was 13th in QBR (61)

2018
11. DESHAUN WATSON, HOUSTON TEXANS
Overall Grade: 82.6
Watson made the best of one of the NFL’s worst offensive lines en route to a playoff berth, and that can’t be overstated. He led the NFL in total pressured dropbacks (281) and passer rating under pressure (88.2).


83.2
Kyler Murray | Arizona Cardinals QB | NFL and PFF stats | PFF

I have no problem if you prefer 2nd year Deshaun. He was a young stud, but I dont see how Kyler isnt on the same level (2nd year Deshaun).

Because stats don't give the full picture. Including passer rating I mentioned earlier, but they can be indicative.

I watched alot if 2nd year Watson and as a passer he's way above what I have seen from Kyler this year. All while taking a thousand sacks.

All this sounds like I hate Kyler. I really don't. There's just a lot of fanboy discount going on here with how he's played. He really should be further along than he is in many ways considering the whole system is built round what he already knows.

Its not like Herbert for example who's gone from a 100% shotgun college spread system to having to play 40% under center and learn a whole new scheme and verbiage.

Kyler has been able to devote much more of his time to reading defenses, going through reads etc because he already knew the system.

 

[TaylorSwift]

The "trash" I wanted was the MVP last season.

Lamar? Lmao.


Stop