K9's NFL QB Rankings

[kerouac9]

Great, Alex Smith is better than Kolb simply because he get paid less. Good job, good effort.

Why should I care who the Cards spend their money (not mine) on again? Did they miss out on players because of lack of $$?

Peyton Manning. We miss out on players all the time because of lack of cap room.

Alex Smith at the most basic level of better than Kolb because he stays healthy (had more sacks than anyone in 2011 but started 16 games) and is paid DRASTICALLY less for similar (theoretical--in reality Alex Smith has been superior the last three years) production.

If you don't like the way I put together

 

[Russ Smith]

Alex Smith came out of the game and got the "W". Isn't that what matters? Would Kolb's accomplishment be nullified if Seattle had gone down the field the other way and Baldwin hadn't dropped the TD pass?

I don't like Kevin Kolb. I'm not going do deny that. I don't like the price we paid for him, I don't like that his contract is going to hang around this franchise's neck like an albatross likely through the 2014 season. I don't like the three-and-outs that he continually produces. I don't like his body language on failed plays. I don't like his goatee.

Whis doesn't put the ball in Kolb's hands to win the game unless he absolutely has to, either. That's why he has him check down and takes numerous three-and-outs and rarely has Kolb take shots downfield. What do you hear in every press conference? "We trust our defense, and I understand that there's no problem punting the ball on fourth down, because we know that the D is going to get the ball back for us."

If Kolb and Smith's play on the field is absolutely equivalent, then I'd still take Smith because Kolb's suffered serious injury in three straight seasons.

I keep asking this what players did we NOT get because we paid Kolb so much?

I get we gave up DRC and a 2nd rounder but that's not contract related that's the trade cost. You keep bringing up his salary, how is his salary hurting the team right now?

I agree right now I'd take Smith because of the injuries. But you're saying Smith is a top 10 QB when his own coach doesn't trust him.

SF won in spite of Alex last night. Wilson couldn't complete a pass, SF's offense was out there most of the 2nd half and they still only got 13 points because he's not a very good QB.

That's my point, he only looks better than Kolb because of the personnel around him. If he had to throw 98 passes in 2 games behind our OL he'd probably have 5 picks and 2 lost fumbles.

Getting Alex Smith in FA 2 years ago would have been a disaster, maybe cheaper and without the trade cost but then it wasn't really an option and again do you really think Larry gets happy when we tell him hey we got your QB, Alex Smith?

Kolb is clearly not the answer, neither was Alex Smith and I am quite happy SF kept him he's going to probably keep them from a Super Bowl again this year and next year lose his job to Kaepernick.

 

[Mulli]

Peyton Manning. We miss out on players all the time because of lack of cap room.

Alex Smith at the most basic level of better than Kolb because he stays healthy (had more sacks than anyone in 2011 but started 16 games) and is paid DRASTICALLY less for similar (theoretical--in reality Alex Smith has been superior the last three years) production.

If you don't like the way I put together

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[Russ Smith]

Peyton Manning. We miss out on players all the time because of lack of cap room.

Alex Smith at the most basic level of better than Kolb because he stays healthy (had more sacks than anyone in 2011 but started 16 games) and is paid DRASTICALLY less for similar (theoretical--in reality Alex Smith has been superior the last three years) production.

If you don't like the way I put together

He didn't want to come here because of the OL.

I can't find a single article that says we pulled out over money, we simply realized he wasn't coming here and paid Kolb.

I found a very specific article from Denver that says every team talking to Manning has reportedly agreed that the basic framework of his deal with the Colts which was 5 years 90 million. Denver had more caproom than the others but that was mainly the key between them and the Titans who had about 15 million less in caproom.

We didn't drop out over money we just knew the guy wasn't coming here.

You could argue that was because if we signed him we didn't have the money to fix the OL too, but we didn't do that anyways.

 

[Phrazbit]

I cant believe there is an argument about Smith vs Kolb...

For as little as the Niners trust Smith, at least he can complete a down field pass to a tight end, and does so on a regular basis. Smith is not an elite QB by any stretch but he is more accurate than Kolb, he is more durable than Kolb, he has a much better arm than Kolb and his contract is less than one third of Kolb's.

It is utterly insane to make a debate where Smith and Kolb are even in the same ballpark right now and its a debate that would never occur anywhere away from some stringent Kolb homers.

 

[Russ Smith]

I cant believe there is an argument about Smith vs Kolb...

For as little as the Niners trust Smith, at least he can complete a down field pass to a tight end, and does so on a regular basis. Smith is not an elite QB by any stretch but he is more accurate than Kolb, he is more durable than Kolb, he has a much better arm than Kolb and his contract is less than one third of Kolb's.

It is utterly insane to make a debate where Smith and Kolb are even in the same ballpark right now and its a debate that would never occur anywhere away from some stringent Kolb homers.

Trade one for the other do you think we're still 4-2?

That's the debate on THIS team Smith would be as bad if not worse, his career says so too when he's not on a team with a great run game and great OL, he sucks.

 

[Phrazbit]

He didn't want to come here because of the OL.

I can't find a single article that says we pulled out over money, we simply realized he wasn't coming here and paid Kolb.

I found a very specific article from Denver that says every team talking to Manning has reportedly agreed that the basic framework of his deal with the Colts which was 5 years 90 million. Denver had more caproom than the others but that was mainly the key between them and the Titans who had about 15 million less in caproom.

We didn't drop out over money we just knew the guy wasn't coming here.

You could argue that was because if we signed him we didn't have the money to fix the OL too, but we didn't do that anyways.

This argument is so dumb... was Manning telepathic and knew our line would fall apart due to injury?

The 2011 Cardinals offensive line gave up LESS sacks per pass play than the 2011 Broncos, and when Kolb was not in the game they gave up a waaaaaaaaaaaay lower sack rate.

 

[kerouac9]

I keep asking this what players did we NOT get because we paid Kolb so much?

I get we gave up DRC and a 2nd rounder but that's not contract related that's the trade cost. You keep bringing up his salary, how is his salary hurting the team right now?

I agree right now I'd take Smith because of the injuries. But you're saying Smith is a top 10 QB when his own coach doesn't trust him.

SF won in spite of Alex last night. Wilson couldn't complete a pass, SF's offense was out there most of the 2nd half and they still only got 13 points because he's not a very good QB.

That's my point, he only looks better than Kolb because of the personnel around him. If he had to throw 98 passes in 2 games behind our OL he'd probably have 5 picks and 2 lost fumbles.

Getting Alex Smith in FA 2 years ago would have been a disaster, maybe cheaper and without the trade cost but then it wasn't really an option and again do you really think Larry gets happy when we tell him hey we got your QB, Alex Smith?

Kolb is clearly not the answer, neither was Alex Smith and I am quite happy SF kept him he's going to probably keep them from a Super Bowl again this year and next year lose his job to Kaepernick.

Who knows who we might have looked at last offseason if we'd had more cap flexibility? We knew what our cap situation was going in, so we didn't bother pursuing free agents who would be out of our price rage. I'm not going to look for dress shirts at Barney's because I know I'm not able to pay $250 for an Oxford.

Maybe we chase Kamerion Wimbley harder, or Manny Lawson or Anthony Spencer. Maybe we go after Ladarious Webb instead of William Gay. Maybe we chase Michael Bush or BenJarvus Green-Ellis. Maybe we take a harder look at Eric Winston. Maybe we chase Ben Grubbs. Maybe we go after Robert Meachem so we don't feel pressured to take a WR in the draft.

What I do know is that we aren't limiting our future cap flexibility by re-structring Daryn Colledge's contract this offseason.

 

[Phrazbit]

Trade one for the other do you think we're still 4-2?

Yes, because those easy touchdowns that Kolb left on the field against St Louis are passes I know Smith can make. I think there is a decent chance the record is better with Smith. Kolb's job this year has been to not wet the bed, and its a job we have seen Smith handle better than Kolb can.

 

[kerouac9]

He didn't want to come here because of the OL.

I can't find a single article that says we pulled out over money, we simply realized he wasn't coming here and paid Kolb.

I found a very specific article from Denver that says every team talking to Manning has reportedly agreed that the basic framework of his deal with the Colts which was 5 years 90 million. Denver had more caproom than the others but that was mainly the key between them and the Titans who had about 15 million less in caproom.

We didn't drop out over money we just knew the guy wasn't coming here.

You could argue that was because if we signed him we didn't have the money to fix the OL too, but we didn't do that anyways.

We didn't drop out because of money, we pulled ourselves out because we didn't want to take a 60% chance of losing Peyton Manning and having to go into the season with only John Skelton. There were numerous reports that Peyton didn't eliminate Arizona, that Arizona pulled themselves out because they couldn't wait on Peyton's decision.

It wasn't money, per se, but the structure of Kolb's contract made it impossible for the Cards to move forward with the negotiation.

 

[Mulli]

We didn't drop out because of money, we pulled ourselves out because we didn't want to take a 60% chance of losing Peyton Manning and having to go into the season with only John Skelton. There were numerous reports that Peyton didn't eliminate Arizona, that Arizona pulled themselves out because they couldn't wait on Peyton's decision.

It wasn't money, per se, but the structure of Kolb's contract made it impossible for the Cards to move forward with the negotiation.

You just said it was about money!

 

[kerouac9]

You just said it was about money!

It is money. We paid Kolb $7 million roster bonus, making it impossible for us to continue to promise Manning that he'd get $50 million guaranteed (or whatever) with us. Kolb's contract prevented us from continuing the courtship with Peyton Manning.

 

[kerouac9]

As I said, if you don't like my rankings, go ahead and create your own. I'd love to discuss them. If you want to put Alex Smith at 22 ahead of Matt Hasselback, Jake Locker, Carson Palmer, and Kevin Kolb, let's debate that.

But I'm not going to debate the qualitative difference of two players where even Pete Carroll decided he'd rather have Tavaris Jackson than Kevin Kolb. Please.

 

[Mulli]

It is money. We paid Kolb $7 million roster bonus, making it impossible for us to continue to promise Manning that he'd get $50 million guaranteed (or whatever) with us. Kolb's contract prevented us from continuing the courtship with Peyton Manning.

It wasn't money per se. It is my belief that Peyton didn't want to play in AZ, based on nothing other than it is the Cardinals.

 

[TJ]

Trade one for the other do you think we're still 4-2?

That's the debate on THIS team Smith would be as bad if not worse, his career says so too when he's not on a team with a great run game and great OL, he sucks.

The argument, IMO, is Alex Smith as an NFL QB and whether or not he's a difference maker. Kolb is irrelevant in this discussion.

If we're using the context of putting Smith under center for the Cards, he would struggle mightily because he wouldn't have the luxurious weapons at running back, elite TE, and offensive line. He would suffer the same fate that Skelton and Kolb did, especially since Smith has had shoulder issues in the past.

Right now, Smith is arguably in the best QB situation any QB could be in, with the exception of having exceptional wideouts. Put Aaron Rodgers in that situation and...OMG. Hell, if they got Peyton, they could have had a legit shot at 16-0.

 

[Russ Smith]

This argument is so dumb... was Manning telepathic and knew our line would fall apart due to injury?

The 2011 Cardinals offensive line gave up LESS sacks per pass play than the 2011 Broncos, and when Kolb was not in the game they gave up a waaaaaaaaaaaay lower sack rate.

Gee I wonder if that had to do with them playing Tim Tebow at QB running all over the place? You know the guy who got "sacked" 33 times in 271 pass attempts compared to Kolb's 30 times in 253?

Why don't we look at the prior year 498 attempts by orton 34 sacks. hey lets look at Orton in Denver LAST year 155 attempts NINE sacks. Yep horrible OL how could psychic Peyton possibly think Denver had a better OL than we did?

Your argument is JUST as dumb, in fact its dumber because had you looked at the same details on Denver as you did on Arizona you would have never bothered to make the argument. Denvers sacks were a result of playing Tebow.

 

[Mulli]

As I said, if you don't like my rankings, go ahead and create your own. I'd love to discuss them. If you want to put Alex Smith at 22 ahead of Matt Hasselback, Jake Locker, Carson Palmer, and Kevin Kolb, let's debate that.

But I'm not going to debate the qualitative difference of two players where even Pete Carroll decided he'd rather have Tavaris Jackson than Kevin Kolb. Please.

I prefer to be lazy and just say I like your rankings. Carry on with your own bad self.

Bud Light salutes you Mr. K9whoratedtheNFLQuarterbacks....

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes, because those easy touchdowns that Kolb left on the field against St Louis are passes I know Smith can make. I think there is a decent chance the record is better with Smith. Kolb's job this year has been to not wet the bed, and its a job we have seen Smith handle better than Kolb can.

Except the bed Kolb is not wetting is already underwater while Alex's bed is several feet above water being supported by a hugely superior OL.

When alex was in a situation somewhat similar to Kolb, he was one of the worst starting Qb's in the NFL.

That's my point, he only looks better now because he's being carried by the team and the system.

yes he makes the throw to the TE better, but when he doesn't have time to throw he's awful, has been his whole career.

 

[Phrazbit]

Gee I wonder if that had to do with them playing Tim Tebow at QB running all over the place? You know the guy who got "sacked" 33 times in 271 pass attempts compared to Kolb's 30 times in 253?

Why don't we look at the prior year 498 attempts by orton 34 sacks. hey lets look at Orton in Denver LAST year 155 attempts NINE sacks. Yep horrible OL how could psychic Peyton possibly think Denver had a better OL than we did?

Your argument is JUST as dumb, in fact its dumber because had you looked at the same details on Denver as you did on Arizona you would have never bothered to make the argument. Denvers sacks were a result of playing Tebow.

Again... you can make the same argument removing Kolb from our O-Line stats. You claimed Manning didnt come here because of our O-line, this is your argument not mine. And its not supported by any statement or statistic.

Minus Kolb the Cards had a league average offensive line last year. Hard to imagine that terrified him into signing elsewhere and there has never been any indication that it did.

 

[TJ]

Except the bed Kolb is not wetting is already underwater while Alex's bed is several feet above water being supported by a hugely superior OL.

When alex was in a situation somewhat similar to Kolb, he was one of the worst starting Qb's in the NFL.

That's my point, he only looks better now because he's being carried by the team and the system.

yes he makes the throw to the TE better, but when he doesn't have time to throw he's awful, has been his whole career.

Russ....I'm surprised you're getting so much resistance on this. You live in Nor Cal and have a good pulse of that team. Your points are very accurate.

In my opinion, if you have to argue that a QB is elite, then he isn't elite. Simple

 

[Phrazbit]

Except the bed Kolb is not wetting is already underwater while Alex's bed is several feet above water being supported by a hugely superior OL.

When alex was in a situation somewhat similar to Kolb, he was one of the worst starting Qb's in the NFL.

That's my point, he only looks better now because he's being carried by the team and the system.

yes he makes the throw to the TE better, but when he doesn't have time to throw he's awful, has been his whole career.

Really? I guess if you totally ignore the stats you could make the argument. For four years now Smith has been an average to above average QB. He was so putrid in his rookie year that people have worn blinders and ignored what he has done since then. The guy isnt elite but he has not been "one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL" in a loooooooong time. So unless you're claiming that he has had an elite offensive line since his 2nd season then this does not hold water.

 

[Phrazbit]

Russ....I'm surprised you're getting so much resistance on this. You live in Nor Cal and have a good pulse of that team. Your points are very accurate.

In my opinion, if you have to argue that a QB is elite, then he isn't elite.

Wow... really? Read the thread. No one is claiming Alex Smith is elite...

 

[kerouac9]

Except the bed Kolb is not wetting is already underwater while Alex's bed is several feet above water being supported by a hugely superior OL.

When alex was in a situation somewhat similar to Kolb, he was one of the worst starting Qb's in the NFL.

That's my point, he only looks better now because he's being carried by the team and the system.

yes he makes the throw to the TE better, but when he doesn't have time to throw he's awful, has been his whole career.

What do the football outsiders think of the difference between Kevin Kolb and Alex Smith? I bet they have some metrics that compare them...

Or what about QBR? I bet that as imperfect as ESPN's metric is, surely it would show how equivalent these players are. Right?

Saying that Alex Smith has superior WR weapons is absurd, BTW. Randy Moss is so distant from his Hall of Fame peak that he doesn't even take the field on the majority of their offensive snaps. Michael Crabtree is about as productive as Andre Roberts. Early Doucet is probably as good as Randy Moss is right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

Again... you can make the same argument removing Kolb from our O-Line stats. You claimed Manning didnt come here because of our O-line, this is your argument not mine. And its not supported by any statement or statistic.

Minus Kolb the Cards had a league average offensive line last year. Hard to imagine that terrified him into signing elsewhere and there has never been any indication that it did.

Skelton 275 pass atttempts 23 sacks. Orton 155 attempts 9 sacks. Since you're so much smarter than me maybe you can tell me which of those is better?

Hint, it's not Skelton.

As for the plays Kolb misses, which i complain about too, if you lived in the bay area and saw every 49er game and heard the talk you''d know they're saying the same thing about Smith. He's had at least 6 misses on TD passes this year. He probably missed 3 last night alone. He's missed Moss open for a TD 3 times already this year. In the Minnesota game one of the DB's fell down and Smith didn't see the WR uncovered and didn't throw it.

He's been terrible this year, but he's got a great run game to fall back on.

 

[Russ Smith]

What do the football outsiders think of the difference between Kevin Kolb and Alex Smith? I bet they have some metrics that compare them...

Or what about QBR? I bet that as imperfect as ESPN's metric is, surely it would show how equivalent these players are. Right?

Saying that Alex Smith has superior WR weapons is absurd, BTW. Randy Moss is so distant from his Hall of Fame peak that he doesn't even take the field on the majority of their offensive snaps. Michael Crabtree is about as productive as Andre Roberts. Early Doucet is probably as good as Randy Moss is right now.

Who said weapons I said OL and run game.