K9's Offseason Plan 1.0 (including Top 5 mock draft)

[Catfish]

K-9, While I understand that a lot of people really wanted Adrian Peterson, I am somewhat aghast at how much Levi Brown is hated on this board. He is not a really good O-lineman, but he is not a really bad one either. He played pretty well at RT in '09 before being sent to the left side.

That vitriol and venom seems to be somewhat the norm for our front office and ownership too. It seems that if they get a superstar they are reluctant to pay him to stay. If they get one that they projected to high status that merely competed decently, they want to flush him away. There is no way to maintain any talent level by doing that. You need to keep him until he is replaced on your team by someone better, and even then you need to keep him for depth and competition until someone better takes his place again. That is how talent level is increased.

I know that our O-line is rated poor. It is not because of a complete lack of talent however. It is because we never keep talent to make people better. Our coaching staff also hasn't contributed to using what we have either. The last time we had a really good O-line was when Joe Bugel was head coach, and Buddy Ryan ran off anybody on offense who was worth anything the first year he came in to replace Bugel.

 

[TJ]

No one is a bigger Levi Brown skeptic than I, and certainly he hasn't played up to his draft status. But I'm not eager to repeat the mistakes of Leonard Davis and every other offensive lineman that we've brought in.

Levi Brown can play in the NFL. He's not going to play to the level of a Top 5 pick, and that's unfortunate. But the choice is releasing him and getting nothing for him after 2011, or making him a part of your roster for the long term. If you can get Levi Brown for the next 8 years averaging $6.25 million per year, isn't that a deal you'd make?

The difference between Levi and Leonard is we all knew (with the exception of Dennis Green) Leonard was a good GUARD playing out of position.

Levi is just bad. Not underachieving, not sub par. Bad. It really doesnt matter if he was drafted #5 or was Mr. Irrelevant in that draft. He finds himself parallel to the sideline way too often while at the same time being guilty of numerous penalties. The plan should not be to reward him with another $50 million and keeping him here for 8 more seasons, it should be to cut our losses.

So to answer your question of not only keeping him but also REWARDING him for his porous performance, I would have to give you a resounding "NO"

 

[joeshmo]

K-9, While I understand that a lot of people really wanted Adrian Peterson, I am somewhat aghast at how much Levi Brown is hated on this board. He is not a really good O-lineman, but he is not a really bad one either. He played pretty well at RT in '09 before being sent to the left side.

He did not play pretty well in 2009. He may have had the worst first half to a season of all starting RT's in the NFL. It wasnt until the last half of the season where he brought his game up to respectable. The guy was almost giving up a sack and penalty per game the first 8 games he played in 2009 and the same can be said for 2008 as well.

 

[kerouac9]

He did not play pretty well in 2009. He may have had the worst first half to a season of all starting RT's in the NFL. It wasnt until the last half of the season where he brought his game up to respectable. The guy was almost giving up a sack and penalty per game the first 8 games he played in 2009 and the same can be said for 2008 as well.

And yet he had the same amount of sacks and fewer penalities in 2010 (7, 5) as he had in 2009 (7, 10).

I'll disagree with AZF that Davis wasn't a good tackle. He was a two-time pro bowl alternate at LT for a bunch of terrible, terrible teams. Yes, he was an All Pro guard, but he was a Pro Bowl tackle if Orlando Pace and Walter Jones weren't playing in his division.

I'm not sure how this team gets better by cutting a top 5 pick. Isn't the goal making the team better? Is the goal to make fans feel better in Janauary through August, or to make fans feel good from August through February? Sometimes I wonder reading this board.

People act like anyone we bring in has to be better than Levi Brown. That may be true, but why don't we let whomever we bring in prove that he's better than Levi Brown before committing to him?

Cheese, re-signing Levi Brown now doesn't increase our committment to him, it eases it. We'd essentially be committed to having Levi Brown on the roster for three seasons instead of one, but we won't be so committed to him that we can't bring in free agents or draft picks to create actual competition.

Continuity is far more important than talent on the offensive line. Donald Penn allowed only 1.5 fewer sacks and committed only 2 fewer penalities than Levi did last season, and he had Josh Freeman playing under center. D'Brickashaw Ferguson allowed 8 sacks and committed 8 penalties in 2009 on a team that ran the ball 59% of the time. Jake Long had one more sack and three more penalties this year on an offense that was nearly as impotent as ours but still managed to run the ball at least 44% of the time.

 

[football karma]

People act like anyone we bring in has to be better than Levi Brown.

c'mon K9-- this is a given, as demonstrated by the fact that anybody who replaced Derek Anderson would have been better than him --- and proven by Max Hall

 

[Mulli]

c'mon K9-- this is a given, as demonstrated by the fact that anybody who replaced Derek Anderson would have been better than him --- and proven by Max Hall

Max Hall not better than DA. Rusty Smith isn't either.

 

[Duckjake]

Continuity is far more important than talent on the offensive line.

I'm amazed at how many people don't understand this.

I've already posted info on longevity on teams like Chicago and NWE.

Here's some more:

Jets- Mangold 5 yrs, Ferguson 5 yrs, Brandon Moore 8 yrs, Damien Woody 3 with Jets and 12 in the NFL.

Falcons (14-2) Clabo 5 years with Atlanta, Dahl 4 Atlanta 6 in NFL, McClure (C) 12 years, Blalock 4 years, Baker 3 years.

There's that Center position again.

Pouncey of the Steelers is a Rookie but was a first round pick
Mangold 5 years with the Jets and a first round pick
Kruetz 13 years with the Bears
Wells 7 years with the Packers

To heck with a QBOF or Pass Rusher, who is the best Center in the Draft?!?

 

[Mulli]

I'm amazed at how many people don't understand this.

I've already posted info on longevity on teams like Chicago and NWE.

Here's some more:

Jets- Mangold 5 yrs, Ferguson 5 yrs, Brandon Moore 8 yrs, Damien Woody 3 with Jets and 12 in the NFL.

Falcons (14-2) Clabo 5 years with Atlanta, Dahl 4 Atlanta 6 in NFL, McClure (C) 12 years, Blalock 4 years, Baker 3 years.

There's that Center position again.

Pouncey of the Steelers is a Rookie but was a first round pick
Mangold 5 years with the Jets and a first round pick
Kruetz 13 years with the Bears
Wells 7 years with the Packers

To heck with a QBOF or Pass Rusher, who is the best Center in the Draft?!?

Ya, it is nuts. And the Bears shuffled their line around Kreutz the first half of the season, but they were able to gel and play together the last 8 games. Funny how that coincided with more-balanced play calling.

 

[desertdawg]

Ya, it is nuts. And the Bears shuffled their line around Kreutz the first half of the season, but they were able to gel and play together the last 8 games. Funny how that coincided with more-balanced play calling.

Crazy world this is.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And yet he had the same amount of sacks and fewer penalities in 2010 (7, 5) as he had in 2009 (7, 10).

I'll disagree with AZF that Davis wasn't a good tackle. He was a two-time pro bowl alternate at LT for a bunch of terrible, terrible teams. Yes, he was an All Pro guard, but he was a Pro Bowl tackle if Orlando Pace and Walter Jones weren't playing in his division.

I'm not sure how this team gets better by cutting a top 5 pick.

continuing to bring up the fact that he's a top 5 pick DOESN'T MAKE HIM A TOP 5 PICK TALENT. He's proven otherwise... he's proven not to be worthy of a top 5 ROUND pick. Pouring money into him... rewarding failure... especially on a team where money isn't easily poured and wouldn't be poured elsewhere just makes ZERO sense.

Isn't the goal making the team better?

yes, and i'm not sure how rewarding failure (regardless of his draft status) does that.

Is the goal to make fans feel better in Janauary through August, or to make fans feel good from August through February? Sometimes I wonder reading this board.

you're telling me!

People act like anyone we bring in has to be better than Levi Brown.

uh, if we're gonna spend that kind of jack, you bet your ass that if we offered that deal to a FA T he would be.

That may be true, but why don't we let whomever we bring in prove that he's better than Levi Brown before committing to him?

Cheese, re-signing Levi Brown now doesn't increase our committment to him, it eases it. We'd essentially be committed to having Levi Brown on the roster for three seasons instead of one, but we won't be so committed to him that we can't bring in free agents or draft picks to create actual competition.

you're speaking greek to me dude. on the one hand, giving him a deal doesn't increase our commitment, it eases it... while lengthing our commitment from 1 to 3 years... sorry man, but in no universe does that make sense, ESPECIALLY in a universe where the Bidwills are the Bidwills and wouldn't bring in competition for a guy they just gave a buttload of money to.

 

[kerouac9]

Cheese, WHO would you bring in for $6 million that would be better than Levi Brown? Who? Hoping that whomever we bring in will be better than the guy we have is what BROUGHT US LEVI BROWN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Extending Levi Brown isn't rewarding failure, it's securing the future and allowing the team to not draft for need. Without an extension, Levi Brown is going to be due $18 million or more in 2012. Just for that season. So we'll either have to cut him or pay him WAY, WAY, WAY more than he's worth and have no security for the future. It's exactly what happened with Antrel Rolle.

So the options are to draft Levi Brown's ostensible replacement this season (which keeps the team from getting better at other positions), cut Brown and draft another LT prospect in the first round in 2012 (forcing us to draft exclusively for need), or hope that some team is dumb enough to cut a starting-caliber LT or allow him to reach free agency (when was the last time a top-shelf LT came available in FA?).

I know that you're exaggerating when you say that Brown isn't playing like a fifth round pick. That's not true, and I illustrated how that's a fact. He's not impressive and he doesn't make a lot of big plays--we agree on that. But the dude CAN PLAY in the NFL. After those first three years, $6 million a season is going to be good money for even a BACKUP offensive tackle. I hope that's what Levi Brown is.

The only argument for not extending Levi Brown right now is (1) that he sucks, which isn't true or (2) you hate him as a player. Those aren't good football reasons. I'm as frustrated by what Levi Brown represents as anyone, but cutting him now as AZF is advocating doesn't make the team better, and neither does letting him start in 2011 without a backup plan for the future.

The Cards aren't rewarding failure by lowering Levi Brown's salary in 2012 and having him commit to the franchise for the long term. They're rewarding failure by keeping the offensive coaching staff in place. They're rewarding failure by continuing to sign washed up Pittsburgh castoffs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, WHO would you bring in for $6 million that would be better than Levi Brown? Who? Hoping that whomever we bring in will be better than the guy we have is what BROUGHT US LEVI BROWN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Extending Levi Brown isn't rewarding failure, it's securing the future and allowing the team to not draft for need. Without an extension, Levi Brown is going to be due $18 million or more in 2012. Just for that season. So we'll either have to cut him or pay him WAY, WAY, WAY more than he's worth and have no security for the future. It's exactly what happened with Antrel Rolle.

So the options are to draft Levi Brown's ostensible replacement this season (which keeps the team from getting better at other positions), cut Brown and draft another LT prospect in the first round in 2012 (forcing us to draft exclusively for need), or hope that some team is dumb enough to cut a starting-caliber LT or allow him to reach free agency (when was the last time a top-shelf LT came available in FA?).

uh, why can we only draft someone in round 1? and why do we have to sign a top-flight LT? Those aren't our ONLY options. There are rounds 2-7 in the NFL draft K9 where you can try to fill a hole (and that's what brown is... a big stinking hole in the line IMO)... and who says we have ot go after top-flight LT in FA. Mediocre LT hit FA and we can try that route as well. you've narrowed the options to make your argument stronger but it doesn't mean those are the only options out there.

I know that you're exaggerating when you say that Brown isn't playing like a fifth round pick. That's not true, and I illustrated how that's a fact.

offensive linemen "stats" don't tell the whole story. He freaking QUITS on plays and he's got horrible technique... after FOUR YEARS. He's a backup at best and a pathetic starter. say whatever you want about anything else, but i watch his play on the field and that play sucks.

He's not impressive and he doesn't make a lot of big plays--we agree on that. But the dude CAN PLAY in the NFL. After those first three years, $6 million a season is going to be good money for even a BACKUP offensive tackle. I hope that's what Levi Brown is.

great, so his contract will be good in three years... are you kidding?

The only argument for not extending Levi Brown right now is (1) that he sucks, which isn't true or (2) you hate him as a player. Those aren't good football reasons.

i believe he does suck and it's more than just numbers. besides the fact that his numbers aren't good, the guy flat out QUITS on so many plays it's disgusting. you can say he doesn't suck until you're blue in the face, but I believe he does and that's a pretty damn good reason why not to keep him on the team for another 4 freaking years.

I'm as frustrated by what Levi Brown represents as anyone,

you keep harping on this. I'm frustrated by how HE PLAYS. I could give a crap what he represents at this point.

but cutting him now as AZF is advocating doesn't make the team better,

don't muddy the conversation by lumping me in with AZF's nonsense. poor form.

and neither does letting him start in 2011 without a backup plan for the future.

backup plan is to find someone in the draft... or FA this year... or next year. this isn't a situation like a Dansby where we KNEW we had a good player and all we were going to do was replace him with someone likely worse. this is a situation where with Brown that he is a HUGE hole on the o-line who's never shown a glimpse of being even mediocre for long stretches of time.

The Cards aren't rewarding failure by lowering Levi Brown's salary in 2012 and having him commit to the franchise for the long term.

yes they are.

They're rewarding failure by keeping the offensive coaching staff in place. They're rewarding failure by continuing to sign washed up Pittsburgh castoffs.

agreed with this.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Cheese, WHO would you bring in for $6 million that would be better than Levi Brown? Who? Hoping that whomever we bring in will be better than the guy we have is what BROUGHT US LEVI BROWN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Extending Levi Brown isn't rewarding failure, it's securing the future and allowing the team to not draft for need. Without an extension, Levi Brown is going to be due $18 million or more in 2012. Just for that season. So we'll either have to cut him or pay him WAY, WAY, WAY more than he's worth and have no security for the future. It's exactly what happened with Antrel Rolle.


The Cards aren't rewarding failure by lowering Levi Brown's salary in 2012 and having him commit to the franchise for the long term. They're rewarding failure by keeping the offensive coaching staff in place. They're rewarding failure by continuing to sign washed up Pittsburgh castoffs.

As difficult as this is for me to say... the above makes sense to me. We need to extend Brown... Ugghhhhhhh....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

The difference between Levi and Leonard is we all knew (with the exception of Dennis Green) Leonard was a good GUARD playing out of position.

Levi is just bad. Not underachieving, not sub par. Bad. It really doesnt matter if he was drafted #5 or was Mr. Irrelevant in that draft. He finds himself parallel to the sideline way too often while at the same time being guilty of numerous penalties. The plan should not be to reward him with another $50 million and keeping him here for 8 more seasons, it should be to cut our losses.

So to answer your question of not only keeping him but also REWARDING him for his porous performance, I would have to give you a resounding "NO"

I'll disagree with AZF that Davis wasn't a good tackle. He was a two-time pro bowl alternate at LT for a bunch of terrible, terrible teams. Yes, he was an All Pro guard, but he was a Pro Bowl tackle if Orlando Pace and Walter Jones weren't playing in his division.

The only argument for not extending Levi Brown right now is (1) that he sucks, which isn't true or (2) you hate him as a player. Those aren't good football reasons. I'm as frustrated by what Levi Brown represents as anyone, but cutting him now as AZF is advocating doesn't make the team better, and neither does letting him start in 2011 without a backup plan for the future.

don't muddy the conversation by lumping me in with AZF's nonsense. poor form.

WTF is going on here? I haven't even COMMENTED on this thread.

 

[CardLogic]

WTF is going on here? I haven't even COMMENTED on this thread.

Classic!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Cheese, WHO would you bring in for $6 million that would be better than Levi Brown? Who?

Cheese is right about all of this. Bottom line is, there is no difference between Levi and Jeremy Bridges, and one can make the argument that Bridges is better. Further, even if Bridges is his equal, he makes FAR less than Levi, money that is desperately needed at other positions. (insert laugh here)

Yeah, Levi was the #5 pick. Too bad he's a bust, and hasn't improved at all. Time to cut bait and move on, whether it be to draft a young guy and stay with a vet like Bridges for a year or two, or sack up, and pay what it takes to get a good LT.

Continuity is an important part of any successful OL, but even more important is identifying the guys that deserve to be paid and stick around. You don't build lines around scrubs, and you don't reward players that are mediocre at best with contract extensions. Continuity for the sake of continuity is just stupid.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Continuity is an important part of any successful OL, but even more important is identifying the guys that deserve to be paid and stick around. You don't build lines around scrubs, and you don't reward players that are mediocre at best with contract extensions. Continuity for the sake of continuity is just stupid.

exactly... when continuity will only get you continual crap, who cares?

 

[Duckjake]

exactly... when continuity will only get you continual crap, who cares?

Continuity got us two NFC West Division Championships. It is hard to argue that when 2008 and 2009 are the only two years since the start of free agency that the Cards had the same linemen playing together for more than one season.

 

[kerouac9]

All right, cheese, if your argument is that anything is better than Levi Brown right now, then there's really no use talking about it. But you thought that anything was better than Matt Leinart. And then people thought that anything was better than Derek Anderson. The "anything is better than what we have now" approach rarely works, because if it's not better, there's no backup plan.

I disagree that there are going to be better opportunities than what we have now in the later rounds of this draft or the next one. Good left tackles just aren't found in rounds 2-7. If we happen to stumble across one, then we'll have two options if we re-sign Brown.

Who are these mediocre starting caliber LT who are going to reach free agency?

I agree that Brown quits on plays, and it's frustrating to me. But I don't think the problem is purely that he's terrible. I think the problem is the blocking scheme and that we're passing too much.

 

[Duckjake]

Cheese is right about all of this. Bottom line is, there is no difference between Levi and Jeremy Bridges, and one can make the argument that Bridges is better. Further, even if Bridges is his equal, he makes FAR less than Levi, money that is desperately needed at other positions. (insert laugh here)

Yeah, Levi was the #5 pick. Too bad he's a bust, and hasn't improved at all. Time to cut bait and move on, whether it be to draft a young guy and stay with a vet like Bridges for a year or two, or sack up, and pay what it takes to get a good LT.

Continuity is an important part of any successful OL, but even more important is identifying the guys that deserve to be paid and stick around. You don't build lines around scrubs, and you don't reward players that are mediocre at best with contract extensions. Continuity for the sake of continuity is just stupid.

If that is true we really need new coaches, well many agree with me that the problem with the oline IS the coach, because they are the ones that benched Bridges, replaced him by moving Leonard Davis Jr. to his spot at Left Tackle and put Keith at RT.

 

[kerouac9]

WTF is going on here? I haven't even COMMENTED on this thread.

I'm sorry, AZF. It's TJ. You're avatar's are so similar and your tones going after me that I get confused. My bad.

 

[Cheesebeef]

All right, cheese, if your argument is that anything is better than Levi Brown right now, then there's really no use talking about it.

uh, where did I say that ANYTHING is better than Levi. I didn't, but thanks for putting words into my mouth to fit your narrative. I just think that between the draft and FA over the next two years, a competent team should be able to upgrade a bad LT to mediocre.

But you thought that anything was better than Matt Leinart. And then people thought that anything was better than Derek Anderson. The "anything is better than what we have now" approach rarely works, because if it's not better, there's no backup plan.

jesus... now you're just putting words in my mouth here AND in the past. i didn't think "anything" was better than Matt. I thought we were screwed either way and trusted in Wiz for this year. i was wrong... didn't mean I thought Derek Anderson would be anything more than a train-wreck and I thought Max Hall would be an even bigger train-wreck. But hey, if you want to just flat out LIE about my position, i guess that follows in line with what you've already done in this thread considering how you narrowed down our options with Levi down to two so it fits your narrative. good going.

I'm done here now. there's no point trying to have a rational conversation with someone who puts words in your mouth.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Continuity got us two NFC West Division Championships. It is hard to argue that when 2008 and 2009 are the only two years since the start of free agency that the Cards had the same linemen playing together for more than one season.

duck, i've said NUMEROUS times that the complete upheaval of those lines made no sense to me. that being said, Levi was no prized pig at RT either and those lines were made to look MUCH better because of Warner's quick release. He's gone and we need a line that can actually... eh, screw it. If y'all really want to reward a complete bust and keep him on the team for another 4 years for the sake of continuity when the line now sucks... well, you'll probably get your wish as it's exactly the bass-ackward move this team will make.

 

[Mulli]

duck, i've said NUMEROUS times that the complete upheaval of those lines made no sense to me. that being said, Levi was no prized pig at RT either and those lines were made to look MUCH better because of Warner's quick release. He's gone and we need a line that can actually... eh, screw it. If y'all really want to reward a complete bust and keep him on the team for another 4 years for the sake of continuity when the line now sucks... well, you'll probably get your wish as it's exactly the bass-ackward move this team will make.

:notdoneherenow:

 

[Cheesebeef]

:notdoneherenow:

meant i was done with K9. No point in discussing something with someone who 's projecting stupidity on you.