Keim as GM? (my perspective)

[CardsSunsDbacks]

If it was your dollars at stake, would you be willing to do that? We don't know what input MB has in these decisions, but I'm sure anything that has to do with money runs through him and rightly so. You can't run a business by remote control. As a manager, you need to be involved in all major decisions and hiring multi-million dollar players is a major decision.

That's the point, He isn't the "Manager" that's the job of the General Manager. The general managers job is to manage both players and personnel. Being that it's MB's money I have no problem with him keeping an eye on these decisions and maybe even having stipulations that you can't spend more than a certain $ amount without going through him first, but otherwise he should only step in if he sees something he doesn't like.

Though as I stated before If his plans are to indeed hire a GM from within than I am all for MB doing the hiring process of both the GM and the HC. Though I think he should let the HC and GM decide the position coaches for the most part.

 

[Redrage]

The criticism wasn't that he just focused on the SEC, it's that he did so almost exclusively.

Do we actually see that born out on the roster though?

He used to scout the ACC and I know he had a thing for the elite of the ACC at one point. He's the reason why Anquan was here and I thought I remember that he might have been behind our interest in ADUB.

As a guy who watches mostly SEC teams it didn't feel like he or the Cards were leaning in favor of the SEC on draft day. I can tellyou how many times i was sure we'd take Melvin Ingram (only to get Michael Floyd) or Ryan Mallet (only to get Rob Housler).

 

[Cardsmasochist]

I'm not sold on Keim. There was an article a few years ago that really blasted Keim; too focused on the SEC, too willing to look past players at smaller schools, etc. I think Green had a bigger role to play than Keim when we went to the SB regarding the assembly of talent.

If Mike B wants control, then Mike B needs to be the GM. Otherwise, hire someone to do it and get out of they way.

How about Denny Green for GM?

 

[Hollywood]

How about Denny Green for GM?

He can't on account of his crazy.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

He can't on account of his crazy.

We drafted a lot of good players while he was our coach. I wonder how much say he had in the draft.

 

[Stout]

If it was your dollars at stake, would you be willing to do that? We don't know what input MB has in these decisions, but I'm sure anything that has to do with money runs through him and rightly so. You can't run a business by remote control. As a manager, you need to be involved in all major decisions and hiring multi-million dollar players is a major decision.

Except you really can't do that in the NFL and be very successful. Granted, if we're talking about a major splash, 80 million dollar free agent, of course he's going to be involved. Other than that, his involvement needs to be in getting the right football guys in place and letting them do their jobs without looking over their shoulder and breathing down their necks. Acting as an owner of a football team is far, far different than running a regular business.

 

[thirty-two]

Yes, Keim was part of an overall bad front office the past few years. By the same token, though, Fitz was part of one of the most inept offenses we've ever seen.

Good point!

 

[JeffGollin]

Before we get into the issue of Keim or not Keim-

- How does MB view the function of GM? Strictly a superscout? Or a traditional COO with broad responsibility for marketing, community relations, bottom-line profits etc?

- When you go 5 & 11 and can't fix the offense, it's essential that every aspect of player evaluation, acquisition and development be scrutinized and challenged.

- Which teams are considered best at judging and picking up good talent? How do they go about this? How are we similar or different? What mistakes have we been making? What changes, if any, do we need to make to avoid those kinds of mistakes and be as good or better than the best?

- Is Keim the right guy who can get us there? Or do we need a different kind of guy and, if so, who?

- Given our injury history this past season, do we need new or different talent in our medical/training staff? Are there different durability criteria we should be considering when seeking out or evaluating new players?

- Ditto mental and intellectual make-up. I think of our RB's running the wrong way, missing blocks or carrying the ball in the wrong hand and it makes me wondering whether we draft too many stupid guys. Do we need more advanced criteria and should we place higher priorities on mental alertness, mental toughness and overall smarts?

Some of these issues should be sorted out in advance. Other aspects should be part of the interview/hiring process. My main point - Never again should fundamental methods go unchallenged (the way we did when we assumed Russ Grimm must be some sort of offensive line coach god). As Mitch pointed out on another thread, the Great Belicheck made the trek to Oregon to check out what Chip Kelly was doing. Nothing is sacred. Ignore this truism and you're likely to wake up one day to find that you're dead.

The search for a new regime must be more than just about new people; it must be about the way the whole organization does things.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Obviously, you aren't a businessman.

And just as obviously, you are mistaken. Well, I WAS a businessman, I'm now retired. Yes, when it's your tail on the line (financially), you don't just turn them all loose but if you can't hire the right people then you deserve to work 20 hours a day for the rest of your life. You hire the right people and give them the direction and the tools necessary to succeed and then you get out of their way. That doesn't mean you don't ever overrule them but if you're there making the calls then why in the world are you paying them for that same task?

Steve

 

[JeffGollin]

And just as obviously, you are mistaken. Well, I WAS a businessman, I'm now retired. Yes, when it's your tail on the line (financially), you don't just turn them all loose but if you can't hire the right people then you deserve to work 20 hours a day for the rest of your life. You hire the right people and give them the direction and the tools necessary to succeed and then you get out of their way. That doesn't mean you don't ever overrule them but if you're there making the calls then why in the world are you paying them for that same task?

Steve

Agree (with 2 slight additions):

1. While you should (must) delegate, you owe it to your organization to "know" everything that's going on. (A clear, honest and realistic feedback mechanism must be in place).

2. While you may need to take your hands completely off the reins, you have every right (in fact obligation) to ask questions and to keep asking them until you're sure your guy checks out OK and you have the info you feel you need.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Agree (with 2 slight additions):

1. While you should (must) delegate, you owe it to your organization to "know" everything that's going on. (A clear, honest and realistic feedback mechanism must be in place).

2. While you may need to take your hands completely off the reins, you have every right (in fact obligation) to ask questions and to keep asking them until you're sure your guy checks out OK and you have the info you feel you need.

I agree with your additions but I'd also add that the level of involvement and oversight is also determined by the nature of the business. If you're an electrician and you eventually start your own business, it's reasonable to be involved to a greater degree than if you are running an NFL team where the single greatest aspect you've brought to the situation is the money.

Steve

 

[40yearfan]

Not saying he should. But his comments come off more like micromanaging to me. You and I both know that there's a big difference between the two.

It depends on your management style. Some people can relinquish power and some can't. Not knowing MB very well, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to his management style. I do know his heart is in the right place and he does want to win.

 

[Cardiac]

I'm not sold on Keim. There was an article a few years ago that really blasted Keim; too focused on the SEC, too willing to look past players at smaller schools, etc. I think Green had a bigger role to play than Keim when we went to the SB regarding the assembly of talent.

If Mike B wants control, then Mike B needs to be the GM. Otherwise, hire someone to do it and get out of they way.

I'm going off my not so great memory here but DG drafted almost no small college players.

During the Whiz regime the Cards have drafted several small college players. I'm thinking that the rap on Keim is unwarranted.

DG had one fantastic draft and the rest were crap.

 

[40yearfan]

Except you really can't do that in the NFL and be very successful. Granted, if we're talking about a major splash, 80 million dollar free agent, of course he's going to be involved. Other than that, his involvement needs to be in getting the right football guys in place and letting them do their jobs without looking over their shoulder and breathing down their necks. Acting as an owner of a football team is far, far different than running a regular business.

How many of the other NFL owners operate like that? All owners take an active part in managing their teams. It's their dollars involved and they aren't going to allow others to spend those dollars without their knowledge. And no, it isn't that different running an NFL team. It's still a business and you still have your invested dollars at stake. You are looking at it from a fan's perspective with no direct stake in the team so you are more willing to take chances involving hugh sums of money. An owner doesn't have that luxury unless he has limitless dollars available and doesn't care if he makes a profit or not. We all know that does not apply to MB.

 

[Cardiac]

Yes, Keim was part of an overall bad front office the past few years. By the same token, though, Fitz was part of one of the most inept offenses we've ever seen.

Good post.

I have recently read on ASFN that Keim wanted AP over Levi and another example ICR. I'm sure MB has been present during draft & FA conversations and remembers what players Keim wanted and how that has turned out so far.

If Keim does get promoted I will be very happy about the decision. If he isn't then I'm good with that as well.

 

[40yearfan]

And just as obviously, you are mistaken. Well, I WAS a businessman, I'm now retired. Yes, when it's your tail on the line (financially), you don't just turn them all loose but if you can't hire the right people then you deserve to work 20 hours a day for the rest of your life. You hire the right people and give them the direction and the tools necessary to succeed and then you get out of their way. That doesn't mean you don't ever overrule them but if you're there making the calls then why in the world are you paying them for that same task?

Steve

Because it's your ass if they fail. You can't "get out of the way" if you plan on having your job for very long. Managers are important, but you don't want them making the major decisions without your input and direct involvement. When high stakes dollars are involved (such as hiring multi-million dollar players), the person with the dollars at stake better be involved if he values his investment.

 

[gamebird98]

so, who are the eligible african american GM's for the interviews?

 

[40yearfan]

so, who are the eligible african american GM's for the interviews?

I understand Rod Graves is available.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Good post.

I have recently read on ASFN that Keim wanted AP over Levi and another example ICR. I'm sure MB has been present during draft & FA conversations and remembers what players Keim wanted and how that has turned out so far.

If Keim does get promoted I will be very happy about the decision. If he isn't then I'm good with that as well.

It's my understanding that Kiem's promotion before this season put him in position to be final say in the draft process and he is thus responsible for the 2012 draft. It's still early, but that draft actually looks pretty good. Floyd showed some real promise late in the season, Flemming looked pretty solid early in the year, Massie stepped up big as the year went on, Bethel did some nice things on special teams, Kelemete is a freak (in a good way), Lindley not so much (but was likely thrown out there way too soon) and Potter in the 7th round looks like a great pick. Ultimately they got some pretty solid value at just about every pick and that doesn't always happen.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because it's your ass if they fail. You can't "get out of the way" if you plan on having your job for very long. Managers are important, but you don't want them making the major decisions without your input and direct involvement. When high stakes dollars are involved (such as hiring multi-million dollar players), the person with the dollars at stake better be involved if he values his investment.

Who is advocating no involvement? We're mostly arguing against the image that Jurecki and others have drawn. The suggestion that there are candidates that won't be considered because Bidwill wants a "yes man" has a lot to do with this conversation. It's simple really, the higher up in the chain of command, the less involvement in the little things. You still have a big picture involvement but you don't say, "Start Kolb, bench Adrian, run a draw play etc". If Mike is just involving himself the way most owners do, then fine, but if the picture that Jurecki paints is correct than we have a real problem.

Steve

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I understand Rod Graves is available.

I wish they had a clause in the Rooney rule where you only had to interview a minority candidate if you haven't had a minority person in that position withing a certain amount of years. Seems dumb to have to interview a minority candidate at GM when you just had a minority GM.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I wish they had a clause in the Rooney rule where you only had to interview a minority candidate if you haven't had a minority person in that position withing a certain amount of years. Seems dumb to have to interview a minority candidate at GM when you just had a minority GM.

I think it's time to put the Rooney rule to rest. The Commissioner should make it clear that reasonable hiring practices should be followed and then give the teams a chance to do the right thing. Hopefully, enough of the "good old boy" network has been dismantled and if there was ever a doubt that minority coaches can't succeed in this league it should surely have been put to rest by now. Make it clear to the owners that the league will monitor and, if necessary, reinstate the current provision (or something similar) if the numbers don't continue in the right direction.

Steve

 

[Cardiac]

It's my understanding that Kiem's promotion before this season put him in position to be final say in the draft process and he is thus responsible for the 2012 draft. It's still early, but that draft actually looks pretty good. Floyd showed some real promise late in the season, Flemming looked pretty solid early in the year, Massie stepped up big as the year went on, Bethel did some nice things on special teams, Kelemete is a freak (in a good way), Lindley not so much (but was likely thrown out there way too soon) and Potter in the 7th round looks like a great pick. Ultimately they got some pretty solid value at just about every pick and that doesn't always happen.

I think that Keim has earned a good if not great reputation in the Cards FO and you can see his influence grow during each draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bethel earns the MVP award for ST's play. Massie looks to be a great pick. I'm not sold on Floyd being worthy of the 13th pick of the draft but I am rather bullish on his future.

Really the only "bust" is Lindley and he still might surprise.

 

[40yearfan]

Who is advocating no involvement? We're mostly arguing against the image that Jurecki and others have drawn. The suggestion that there are candidates that won't be considered because Bidwill wants a "yes man" has a lot to do with this conversation. It's simple really, the higher up in the chain of command, the less involvement in the little things. You still have a big picture involvement but you don't say, "Start Kolb, bench Adrian, run a draw play etc". If Mike is just involving himself the way most owners do, then fine, but if the picture that Jurecki paints is correct than we have a real problem.

Steve

I think Jurecki is nuts. Whis would not allow MB to have that kind of input and I don't belive MB is that type of manager. As I have stated, the owner needs to be involved in any high dollar transactions. The actual nuts and bolts are handled by the field personnel.

 

[Jay Cardinal]

Good post.

I have recently read on ASFN that Keim wanted AP over Levi and another example ICR. I'm sure MB has been present during draft & FA conversations and remembers what players Keim wanted and how that has turned out so far.

If Keim does get promoted I will be very happy about the decision. If he isn't then I'm good with that as well.

This idea was kicked around on the 620AM yesterday. They were saying it doesn't make sense to say "Keim is part of the old guard" unless you were actually there in the room. What is Keim was arguing against the Kolb trade? If Keim wanted to pick AP over Levi? If Keim was the only one in the room the argued against some of the poorer decisions, then after firing the others, Keim is the logical direction to go. Not saying it is my opinion, but the radio pointed out this is at least a possibility.