Keim with an eye on 2015

[RugbyMuffin]

Sorry you misunderstood. I should have made it more clear that I was referring to posts on ASFN. I should have written "a roster devoid of talent last year".

Ah, yes, well then there is much that won't make sense in my responses.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You missed my point a bit. It isn't that they let Horton go (reports state he wanted out after not getting the job), it is that they then proceeded to blow up the entire staff and scheme on defense. They had an established system that had proven to be effective and they had staff in place who could continue teaching that system. Maybe it would have not been as effective but the drop off would have been minimal.

In regards to the defensive personnel, again it was the unnecessary moves that were made which cost resources that could have been used on the offense. We paid 3 mil to sign Alexander and sign Schofield. We spent 3 mil to sign Brinkley and then used a top 60 draft pick to draft Minter. We cut Wilson to sign the older Bell. Do you really need to cut Gay to sign Cason when you are signing Powers to be the #2 CB anyway? Again, it isn't that we didn't have areas to upgrade on defense, it is we tried to switch up the entire defense in the same offseason we decided to switch the system. Now, not only do players have to learn new language, scheme and responsibilities, they also have to learn about what the player next to them can do as well.

What the Bears did on defense is the [erfect example. The Bears brought in a defensive coach who decided to learn the Bears terminology, use it while blending in his own, and gradually tweek the scheme to his liking acknowledging the Bears had an asset in the defense we was inheriting.

All good points.

The one thing I would 100% speculate is that without Horton, you cannot have his scheme.

Horton was EXTREMELY outside the box with his thinking, to the point where I don't think many coaches in the NFL have the balls to call, and put on the field what he did.

Thus with Horton, goes the scheme in my opinion. I cannot prove that tho, just speculation.

 

[Duckjake]

Wow. If it weren't for Free Agency and Sal Cap issues this could be our starting Defense right now using a 4-3 alignment.

Antonio Smith
Darnell Dockett
Dan Williams
Calais Campbell

Daryl Washington
Jasper Brinckley
Karlos Dansby

DRC
Patrick Peterson
Antrel Rolle
Adrian Wilson

Talk about a veteran lineup.

Note this is based on using players drafted by the Cards who are still starting in the NFL plus ADub. Had to use Brinckley because we really haven't had any luck drafting ILBs since Hayes in '03. The surprising thing is that 6 of those guys are still in Arizona.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Wow. If it weren't for Free Agency and Sal Cap issues this could be our starting Defense right now using a 4-3 alignment.

Antonio Smith
Darnell Dockett
Dan Williams
Calais Campbell

Daryl Washington
Jasper Brinckley
Karlos Dansby

DRC
Patrick Peterson
Antrel Rolle
Adrian Wilson

Talk about a veteran lineup.

Note this is based on using players drafted by the Cards who are still starting in the NFL plus ADub. Had to use Brinckley because we really haven't had any luck drafting ILBs since Hayes in '03. The surprising thing is that 6 of those guys are still in Arizona.

I'll take it. Even though DRC is a very questionable player, IMO. All the physical talent in the world, the mind of a dog that has been hit by too many cars.

But, point made, that would be a great defense, IMO.

 

[Mulli]

I'll take it. Even though DRC is a very questionable player, IMO. All the physical talent in the world, the mind of a dog that has been hit by too many cars.

But, point made, that would be a great defense, IMO.

I question the pass rush on that team for some reason. Can't support it, just feels iffy. And AW is on IR for some unknown reason, so we need a replacement.

 

[Duckjake]

Ah, yes, well then there is much that won't make sense in my responses.

Yeah I thought that was the case. What I was referring to was how during the season last year if anyone said something negative about the team the answer was always "all we need is better QB play and we'd be competitive." Then as soon as Arians comes in and starts making wholesale changes and someone questions it the answer became "He needed to clean up the mess left by Whisenhunt. A roster devoid of talent." All in less than 12 months.

I'll give Arians until the mid point of the season. Whisenhunt had things turned around by then. They finished the 2007 season 5-3 and went to the SB the next season.

Of course CKW inherited a veteran roster so maybe 10 games.

 

[Mulli]

Yeah I thought that was the case. What I was referring to was how during the season last year if anyone said something negative about the team the answer was always "all we need is better QB play and we'd be competitive." Then as soon as Arians comes in and starts making wholesale changes and someone questions it the answer became "He needed to clean up the mess left by Whisenhunt. A roster devoid of talent." All in less than 12 months.

I'll give Arians until the mid point of the season. Whisenhunt had things turned around by then. They finished the 2007 season 5-3 and went to the SB the next season.

Of course CKW inherited a veteran roster so maybe 10 games.

Weird Cardinal football:

Cardinals' average roster age is 4th oldest in the league...

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/108043/2013-nfl-age-rankings-at-reduction-to-53

 

[Duckjake]

I question the pass rush on that team for some reason. Can't support it, just feels iffy. And AW is on IR for some unknown reason, so we need a replacement.

Honey Badger of course.

As for the pass rush Smith and CC combined for 13.5 sacks last year and having DWash and Karlos coming off the edge who knows?

 

[Mulli]

Honey Badger of course.

As for the pass rush Smith and CC combined for 13.5 sacks last year and having DWash and Karlos coming off the edge who knows?

Dwash rushing from OLB and not ILB spot? Has he done that an NFL level?

 

[Duckjake]

Dwash rushing from OLB and not ILB spot? Has he done that an NFL level?

No but I doubt he'd have any problem with it. He's talented enough. He's at least as good as Karlos was when he came into the league and KD had 17 sacks combined his first 3 seasons as OLB in a 4-3.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I question the pass rush on that team for some reason. Can't support it, just feels iffy. And AW is on IR for some unknown reason, so we need a replacement.

Yeremiah Bell.

Sent from RM's Super phone!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

No but I doubt he'd have any problem with it. He's talented enough. He's at least as good as Karlos was when he came into the league and KD had 17 sacks combined his first 3 seasons as OLB in a 4-3.

I would love to see what Campbell could do as a 4-3 DE

Sent from RM's Super phone!

 

[Catfish]

Very true.

The firing of Horton has never sat well with me, but it is the past. I put it behind me a couple months after he was fired, that and I was tired of endlessly debating how good Horton's defense and his scheme was, and how we would really miss his mind within the organization. I was a madman on this board for a while for that perspective on Horton's defense......seems now people are changing their tune, but that is neither here nor there. Horton is not coming back, and Arians cleaned house.

There were absolutely no chance this defense was not going to take step back. I actually am surprised at how well they have done so far, and marginally surprised at how bad the offense has looked, I stress marginally because people were fooling themselves that this offensive line was going to be able to do anything this year.

Yet, I still scratch me head about letting Adrian Wilson go, but he is in fact not playing anywhere right now, and the other head scratcher, Kerry Rhodes, is not playing anywhere either.

Outside of that on defense, who did we lose ? William Gay ? O'Brien "LT" Schofield ? Paris Lenon ?

Kevin Minter, Tyrann Matheui, Patrick Peterson is a pretty good start to bringing in some quality young talent.

Not to mention our biggest acquisition in Jonathan Cooper is on IR, and he was playing really well for this team as a rookie.

I dunno. There are definite concerns about Bruce Arians and company, but it is 3 weeks into their first season.

Whiz was given an obscene amount of time per the failure he produce, I think Arians deserves at least two seasons worth of time.

:

Muffin-----I am in agreement with you on almost all of this. Horton was a very good DC. He did think outside the box, and most of all, he studied his roster and put each player into the best possible position to take advantage of his strengths while not exposing his weaknesses, but once he lost the HC position, he wanted out.

I do not lament the loss of Wilson and Rhodes. Neither are even playing this year. I agree with Keim-----(better to cut a year early than a year late)-----and he seems to have seen the writing on the wall. I only hope he keeps it up in the future.

Injuries have devastated what looked to be a decent roster this year. Cooper was bad enough, but to follow that with three consecutive OLB's is almost overwhelming. This will almost certainly force the whole scheme to look more 4-3 than 3-4. While those losses are for the season, it bodes well for next year, especially if Swope can regain his concussion health, and un-retire next year, (which is possible, while not probable).

All in all, if it had to happen, this year was a better one in which to absorb injuries without hurting expectations so much. No one should have been expecting really good W/L results this year.

The alternative apparently would have been yet another year of Whiz running the offense. I would hate to see how our QB situation would have survived his continued failure to help with pass protection. Throughout his history as our HC, he appeared to care less that his QB's were being beaten mercilessly, including Warner. At least Arians has provided some help to via using RB's capable of blocking, and at least using TE's occasionally to help against speed rushers. I believe we will see more of that as we go on, (or else he will need to go to a more mobile QB in Stanton). He simply cannot continue to expose Palmer to pressure like he has had to endure thus far.

Still we are but three games into this season. This staff and FO deserve the opportunity to continue what they have started. Let us see what transpires in 2013, 2014, and 2015 before we start calling for heads.

 

[jf-08]

Mods please fix the title, thanks!

Got it.

 

[kerouac9]

Kevin Minter, Tyrann Matheui, Patrick Peterson is a pretty good start to bringing in some quality young talent.

Substantiate this claim beyond him being a 2nd round pick. Can't get off the bench, injured right now, has played 0 defensive snaps and 30 special teams snaps this year (the special teams snaps is 4 fewer than Jasper Brinkley).

 

[Chopper0080]

Substantiate this claim beyond him being a 2nd round pick. Can't get off the bench, injured right now, has played 0 defensive snaps and 30 special teams snaps this year (the special teams snaps is 4 fewer than Jasper Brinkley).

You beat me to this one. I think Minter can be a decent pro player, but I have seen nothing to validate that claim to date.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Substantiate this claim beyond him being a 2nd round pick. Can't get off the bench, injured right now, has played 0 defensive snaps and 30 special teams snaps this year (the special teams snaps is 4 fewer than Jasper Brinkley).

Yeah, I guess one should say "potentially quality young talent" ..... we are only 3 weeks into the season after all.

Sent from my intergalactic transmorgapher

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, I guess one should say "potentially quality young talent" ..... we are only 3 weeks into the season after all.

Sent from my intergalactic transmorgapher

Only 3 weeks into the season and our new GM is already talking about building to 2015.

 

[SECTION 11]

Superscout superscout superscout!

 

[Mulli]

Superscout superscout superscout!

Ooooooh! Now you have done it.

 

[Duckjake]

Superscout superscout superscout!

Isn't that a Rick James song?

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The beginning of 2013 might have spelled the start of a promising era for the Browns’ defense, which has been outstanding in the first three weeks of the season. Entering Week Four, only the Jets are allowing fewer yards per play than Cleveland. Moreover, the Browns’ pass rush has been strong, notching 12 sacks thus far.

Link

Horton's D sounds like they are starting out on the right foot. They have given up 64 points.

 

[Duckjake]

Link

Horton's D sounds like they are starting out on the right foot. They have given up 64 points.

They are 7th in yards and 12th in points. A lot better than what we're doing. Cards are 19th in yards and 23rd in points. They held Adrian Peterson to 3.5 yards per carry and their run defense is #2 at 2.8 ypc. That last number is surprising.

 

[az240zz]

:

Muffin-----I am in agreement with you on almost all of this. Horton was a very good DC. He did think outside the box, and most of all, he studied his roster and put each player into the best possible position to take advantage of his strengths while not exposing his weaknesses, but once he lost the HC position, he wanted out.

I do not lament the loss of Wilson and Rhodes. Neither are even playing this year. I agree with Keim-----(better to cut a year early than a year late)-----and he seems to have seen the writing on the wall. I only hope he keeps it up in the future.

Injuries have devastated what looked to be a decent roster this year. Cooper was bad enough, but to follow that with three consecutive OLB's is almost overwhelming. This will almost certainly force the whole scheme to look more 4-3 than 3-4. While those losses are for the season, it bodes well for next year, especially if Swope can regain his concussion health, and un-retire next year, (which is possible, while not probable).

All in all, if it had to happen, this year was a better one in which to absorb injuries without hurting expectations so much. No one should have been expecting really good W/L results this year.

The alternative apparently would have been yet another year of Whiz running the offense. I would hate to see how our QB situation would have survived his continued failure to help with pass protection. Throughout his history as our HC, he appeared to care less that his QB's were being beaten mercilessly, including Warner. At least Arians has provided some help to via using RB's capable of blocking, and at least using TE's occasionally to help against speed rushers. I believe we will see more of that as we go on, (or else he will need to go to a more mobile QB in Stanton). He simply cannot continue to expose Palmer to pressure like he has had to endure thus far.

Still we are but three games into this season. This staff and FO deserve the opportunity to continue what they have started. Let us see what transpires in 2013, 2014, and 2015 before we start calling for heads.

Isn't the problem Ariens needs 5 receivers for his system to work. I'm wondering why we don't run more, use more play action, and run a few draws. This could slow down the pass rush, giving Palmer more time to throw and stay on his feet.

 

[waterboy]

I like all the optimism for the future and share most of it. What gives me pause is the failure to fix the No. 1 problem from previous years - the O line. Big talk from BA, extra coaches with an emphasis on the line, a first round draft pick (good choice) and still not much, if any, better than Grimm's tenure. We're gonna have to do much better with future players than these we have now.

I'm not sold that BA is a better talent developer than his predecessors. BA would have had instant credibility this year if the line was playing anywhere near better than last year. The season is young and if the O line play improves in the first half of the season I think that we'll all be more optimistic.