Kevin Kolb = Alex Smith?

[Russ Smith]

Moot point, Alex Smith could NEVER play for Whiz. His own college coach said it takes him awhile to get comfortable in a system and until he does, he'll struggle. Whiz wouldn't have waited that long he would have decided this guy isn't mentally tough, and moved on.

Remember Whiz essentially did that with Kolb this year but Skelton got hurt and Kolb has now taken over. It only took Whiz one year to replace Kolb, no way Smith gets much longer than that if he were here.

 

[kerouac9]

Moot point, Alex Smith could NEVER play for Whiz. His own college coach said it takes him awhile to get comfortable in a system and until he does, he'll struggle. Whiz wouldn't have waited that long he would have decided this guy isn't mentally tough, and moved on.

Remember Whiz essentially did that with Kolb this year but Skelton got hurt and Kolb has now taken over. It only took Whiz one year to replace Kolb, no way Smith gets much longer than that if he were here.

Alex Smith didn't exactly struggle in Habaugh's system in his first year in it. That being said, even if Whis decides to turn the page on Smith after 8 games (and at this time last year the team thought the talent differential between Kolb and Skelton was great enough that Kolb wasn't competing for his job), the Cards are still ahead, because they're not guaranteeing Alex Smith $20 million.

So, if you say that the level of play on the field is equal, the Alex Smith is still a win because we don't have to give up draft pick compensation and we're saving a ton of money on the cap.

 

[Russ Smith]

Alex Smith didn't exactly struggle in Habaugh's system in his first year in it. That being said, even if Whis decides to turn the page on Smith after 8 games (and at this time last year the team thought the talent differential between Kolb and Skelton was great enough that Kolb wasn't competing for his job), the Cards are still ahead, because they're not guaranteeing Alex Smith $20 million.

So, if you say that the level of play on the field is equal, the Alex Smith is still a win because we don't have to give up draft pick compensation and we're saving a ton of money on the cap.

Harbaugh didn't ask Smith to do what Whiz asks his QB's to do. Remember Whiz had DA and Hall in the same basic system he had Warner in. Then he had Kolb in a very similar system and then Skelton. Only this year with a training camp for him to figure out how to use them differently did he change the system.

If Smith had somehow become a Card last year he would have had the same abbreviated camp and then been plopped into a new offense that asked him to do all sorts of things as opposed to being in a system Harbaugh basically built to hide Alex Smith's weaknesses. THe Cards don't have a great run game like SF did, they don't put the QB in the easy situations Alex was in last year.

I think Smith today is better than Kolb but I don't think he would be if he had taken over last year in the same situation Kolb did. I think he would have been fighting Skelton for the QB job this year and we'd have been talking about college Qb's here.

 

[kerouac9]

Harbaugh didn't ask Smith to do what Whiz asks his QB's to do. Remember Whiz had DA and Hall in the same basic system he had Warner in. Then he had Kolb in a very similar system and then Skelton. Only this year with a training camp for him to figure out how to use them differently did he change the system.

If Smith had somehow become a Card last year he would have had the same abbreviated camp and then been plopped into a new offense that asked him to do all sorts of things as opposed to being in a system Harbaugh basically built to hide Alex Smith's weaknesses. THe Cards don't have a great run game like SF did, they don't put the QB in the easy situations Alex was in last year.

I think Smith today is better than Kolb but I don't think he would be if he had taken over last year in the same situation Kolb did. I think he would have been fighting Skelton for the QB job this year and we'd have been talking about college Qb's here.

Fine. But would Smith have been worse, in your opinion, both last year and this year? That's my argument. I don't think that Kolb has any special skill set that Smith lacks. I honestly think that Smith would've been better able to assimilate the Warner offense because he'd seen a lot of it with Martz, and a lot of spread concepts after Jimmy Raye got ousted.

So, again, if Kolb and Alex Smith play at exactly the same level as Arizona Cardinals last year, Smith is still the better option, because he costs 1/3 less money and 0 trade compensation. If he gets benched after being in a QB battle, then we're back where we are right now.

Right?

 

[Russ Smith]

Fine. But would Smith have been worse, in your opinion, both last year and this year? That's my argument. I don't think that Kolb has any special skill set that Smith lacks. I honestly think that Smith would've been better able to assimilate the Warner offense because he'd seen a lot of it with Martz, and a lot of spread concepts after Jimmy Raye got ousted.

So, again, if Kolb and Alex Smith play at exactly the same level as Arizona Cardinals last year, Smith is still the better option, because he costs 1/3 less money and 0 trade compensation. If he gets benched after being in a QB battle, then we're back where we are right now.

Right?

No idea, I've seen Alex at his worst without a great run game or a good OL and he was terrible, losing games singlehandedly bad.

Cheaper yes but I'm not sure at that time we bring him in instead of Kolb that's enough to convince Fitz to stay a Card?

That's the part I think you overlook, that Fitz played a role in us choosing Kolb. Yes we overpaid for him but there was a reason.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

uh... I'm pretty sure he won that playoff shootout against New Orleans last season.


seriously, i'm not an Alex Smith fan, but the idea that Kolb is better than him right now is ludicrous.

that win was more Vernon Davis than anything else. Plus the defense forced 5 TO's and gave SF a short field a few times. Smith played well that game but still only averaged 5.7 yards per pass play. Davis was unstoppable. He took a 10 yard completion 47 yards on the final drive.

Look at it this way Vernon Davis had 180 yards on 7 catches. Smith's 17 other completions went for a grand total on 119 yards. Also he averaged 18 yards per attempt to VD, 3.71 ypa to the rest of the team.

 

[john h]

Similarities:

• Both are game managers.
• Both can make good passes when the throws are there.
• Both can scramble for chunks of yardage.
• Both take advantage of short fields given by the Defense and ST's.
• Both have histories of bad play.
• Neither make big mistakes.
• Neither are 'elite' or ever will be.

Differences:

• Kolb doesn't have an elite running back behind him or an elite TE.
• Smith doesn't have an elite WR to throw to.
• Kolb has a history of injuries and concussions.
• Kolb only has 3-4 games where he shows what he can do with this defense.

Agree of disagree? Anything to add or take away? I believe the similarites are clear. KK and AS have the same identity and expectations at the QB position. Discuss.

I think Smith lacks good touch on the ball. I saw him fire some real bullets to receivers only 10 yds or so from him which were on target but so hard the receiver could not even get his hands up. Smith had a great year last year but I still wonder if he was a one year wonder or what. No doubt he has a great defense and an elite running back who was stopped by Green Bay yesterday. I am not so sure how he will hold up under a big pass rush like the Cards have. I am at a total loss about Kolb. I give him a B in the victory yesterday. He made no big mistakes but could have had two intercepts. He was mostly accurate and got the ball away in time. He also showed the ability to run the ball. He has now had three good games (not great). His game with the big drive was an A game the other two were B games. Our defense is still the strength of this team. Kolb may turn out to be really good but it will take more time to assess if he is our QB of the future. He certainly has been the QB of the last three games. Our defense is good enough to keep us in most games. If we can score 21-24 points a game we can make the playoffs IMHO baring any major injuries.

 

[john h]

You guys are overrating Kolb. He lost his job to Vick and look how bad he looked today.

Personally he is still a work in progress to me but has won 3 in a row which is what it is. I bet Kolb would have replaced Vick had he still been on the Eagles team in yesterdays game. I think Vick would be better off as a runner. He is just to small to be a QB and take the beatings he is taking game after game. Vick looked terrible yesterday and Kolb looked better than average with no fumbles and no mistakes. Teams have figured out how to keep Vick in the pocket so his running is not as important as it once was. Size does matter when it comes to QB's these days.

 

[kerouac9]

No idea, I've seen Alex at his worst without a great run game or a good OL and he was terrible, losing games singlehandedly bad.

Cheaper yes but I'm not sure at that time we bring him in instead of Kolb that's enough to convince Fitz to stay a Card?

That's the part I think you overlook, that Fitz played a role in us choosing Kolb. Yes we overpaid for him but there was a reason.

Kolb was losing games singlehandedly last year. So I don't get it.

I don't think that Fitz fails to sign that contract extension last year if we do something about the QB situation and it's not his best friend Kolb. No one was going to give him that much money to come around in 2011. Fitz was going to stay a Card regardless.

Where would Fitz have reasonably been able to go that gave him a better chance of winning? Minnesota?

OT - Has someone told DeSean Jackson that he got a new contract, and it's okay for him to start trying again?

 

[Russ Smith]

Kolb was losing games singlehandedly last year. So I don't get it.

I don't think that Fitz fails to sign that contract extension last year if we do something about the QB situation and it's not his best friend Kolb. No one was going to give him that much money to come around in 2011. Fitz was going to stay a Card regardless.

Where would Fitz have reasonably been able to go that gave him a better chance of winning? Minnesota?

OT - Has someone told DeSean Jackson that he got a new contract, and it's okay for him to start trying again?

I don't think he was the defense was terrible at the beginning of the year last year. I think we could have won games with Kolb last year just like we did Skelton but it took longe rfor the D to get good and by then, Kolb was injured.

He was bad but not Alex Smith bad. To be fair he had been in the league longer than Alex but the first 3 years Alex was 31 INT 21 TD and 21 fumbles(don't know if that's lost or total ESPN doesn't say). that's in roughly 800 passing attempts. Kolb in his career has still only had about 650 attempts. He didn't have to play alot early on when he was new to the league like Smith did, but he also didn't get all the reps and early experience that Smith did.

I don't know what the deal with jackson is he's on a pace to catch close to 80 balls but he hasn't scored yet and with Vick as the QB he's supposed to be more dangerous because of the big arm. I actually wonder if them taking away punt returns from him is an issue. The big downside to DeSean is he's a very emotional kid, very immature. I'm sure they said if we pay you, you're a WR we don't want to risk you on punt returns but he just doesn't seem to be the same guy.

Still very dangerous but not sure, to be fair it's tough to play with Vick if you're a WR, he runs less now but he's so atypical that you're often going to be open and not get the ball because of the way Vick plays.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think he was the defense was terrible at the beginning of the year last year. I think we could have won games with Kolb last year just like we did Skelton but it took longe rfor the D to get good and by then, Kolb was injured.

He was bad but not Alex Smith bad. To be fair he had been in the league longer than Alex but the first 3 years Alex was 31 INT 21 TD and 21 fumbles(don't know if that's lost or total ESPN doesn't say). that's in roughly 800 passing attempts. Kolb in his career has still only had about 650 attempts. He didn't have to play alot early on when he was new to the league like Smith did, but he also didn't get all the reps and early experience that Smith did.

I don't know what the deal with jackson is he's on a pace to catch close to 80 balls but he hasn't scored yet and with Vick as the QB he's supposed to be more dangerous because of the big arm. I actually wonder if them taking away punt returns from him is an issue. The big downside to DeSean is he's a very emotional kid, very immature. I'm sure they said if we pay you, you're a WR we don't want to risk you on punt returns but he just doesn't seem to be the same guy.

Still very dangerous but not sure, to be fair it's tough to play with Vick if you're a WR, he runs less now but he's so atypical that you're often going to be open and not get the ball because of the way Vick plays.

No. Kolb was awful during the Seattle game last year. He was awful against Minnesota--a game where the D kept playing into the fourth quarter. He was terrible against Washington in that he was given a lead by the D and was able to do nothing with the ball for the next three quarters. I've debunked this myth multiple times. MAYBE you can lay the New York Giants game at the defense's feet alone, but if Kolb had been able to do anything at all in the 2nd and 3rd quarters of any of his starts, we'd look a lot more like this year's team than we did last year's.

I took Desean on my fantasy team. I'm stuck with him and Wes Welker (among other guys). It's horrible owning either.

 

[Russ Smith]

No. Kolb was awful during the Seattle game last year. He was awful against Minnesota--a game where the D kept playing into the fourth quarter. He was terrible against Washington in that he was given a lead by the D and was able to do nothing with the ball for the next three quarters. I've debunked this myth multiple times. MAYBE you can lay the New York Giants game at the defense's feet alone, but if Kolb had been able to do anything at all in the 2nd and 3rd quarters of any of his starts, we'd look a lot more like this year's team than we did last year's.

I took Desean on my fantasy team. I'm stuck with him and Wes Welker (among other guys). It's horrible owning either.

So the D was as good when Kolb was the starter as it was when Skelton was?

If you really say yes we may as well give up we're not going to agree on that.

The D was dramatically better the 2nd half of the season last season.

 

[kerouac9]

So the D was as good when Kolb was the starter as it was when Skelton was?

If you really say yes we may as well give up we're not going to agree on that.

The D was dramatically better the 2nd half of the season last season.

Go back and look at the play sheets. Kolb was completely impotent in the second and third quarters. Including the Baltimore game, where the D gave him a lead and he couldn't do anything to help churn clock.

I was firmly in the "Kolb didn't get any help from the defense" camp, until I actually looked into it. The D held Seattle to 17 points in their house. Was it their fault that they couldn't hold 'em to 10? Point to me the games where Kolb was productive for 4 quarters and the D let him down throughout the game.

Yes, the D was dramatically better the 2nd half of the year last year, but they weren't garbage as a scoring D in the first half, either. Lots of yards and some big plays in the passing game, for sure. But Kolb did his part to contribute to the losses.

Can you point to the games where Kolb was let down by the defense?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I took Desean on my fantasy team. I'm stuck with him and Wes Welker (among other guys). It's horrible owning either.

Or you could be like me and watch my fantasy team get beat while I have Fitz and Jamaal Charles sitting on the bench . I decided Colston and Michael Bush were better options .

 

[Russ Smith]

Go back and look at the play sheets. Kolb was completely impotent in the second and third quarters. Including the Baltimore game, where the D gave him a lead and he couldn't do anything to help churn clock.

I was firmly in the "Kolb didn't get any help from the defense" camp, until I actually looked into it. The D held Seattle to 17 points in their house. Was it their fault that they couldn't hold 'em to 10? Point to me the games where Kolb was productive for 4 quarters and the D let him down throughout the game.

Yes, the D was dramatically better the 2nd half of the year last year, but they weren't garbage as a scoring D in the first half, either. Lots of yards and some big plays in the passing game, for sure. But Kolb did his part to contribute to the losses.

Can you point to the games where Kolb was let down by the defense?

I didn't say he was let down I said the D was much better.

the team actually scored more PPG with Kolb at QB than with Skelton but the records were dramatically in Skelton's favor. That's because the D was better.

It's also why Kolb is 2-0 right now, he's not winning the games, but he's good enough for us to win with this defense, and so far the 2 games are better than Skelton because he's not turning it over.

He's not a turnover machine and never has been. Alex Smith earlier in his career was a turnover machine.
THat's what we need right now. Hopefully he'll grow into the position and start hitting more plays and the offense will get better. Hopefully the run game will get better but right now we can win games by just not turning the ball over because our D is that good.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Go back and look at the play sheets. Kolb was completely impotent in the second and third quarters. Including the Baltimore game, where the D gave him a lead and he couldn't do anything to help churn clock.

I was firmly in the "Kolb didn't get any help from the defense" camp, until I actually looked into it. The D held Seattle to 17 points in their house. Was it their fault that they couldn't hold 'em to 10? Point to me the games where Kolb was productive for 4 quarters and the D let him down throughout the game.

Yes, the D was dramatically better the 2nd half of the year last year, but they weren't garbage as a scoring D in the first half, either. Lots of yards and some big plays in the passing game, for sure. But Kolb did his part to contribute to the losses.

Can you point to the games where Kolb was let down by the defense?

Skelton put the D in bad positions more than Kolb did. Point that I'm making is that it is unlikely we would have fared any better with Skelton in those first 7 games than with Kolb.

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't say he was let down I said the D was much better.

the team actually scored more PPG with Kolb at QB than with Skelton but the records were dramatically in Skelton's favor. That's because the D was better.

It's also why Kolb is 2-0 right now, he's not winning the games, but he's good enough for us to win with this defense, and so far the 2 games are better than Skelton because he's not turning it over.

He's not a turnover machine and never has been. Alex Smith earlier in his career was a turnover machine.
THat's what we need right now. Hopefully he'll grow into the position and start hitting more plays and the offense will get better. Hopefully the run game will get better but right now we can win games by just not turning the ball over because our D is that good.

I wouldn't sign Alex Smith in 2007 to a free-agent contract to start for the Arizona Cardinals, either. Thankfully, we didn't have that choice. We could've signed Alex Smith in 2011 to a free-agent contract, who also wasn't a turnover machine. So what's your argument here?

I'm not sure what your contra-factual is on Kolb. If the defense were better early in the season (and they were good), would we not have lost by as much? Would Kolb have been limited in having to throw dumb INTs and fumbles that lost games? Yes, we scored more PPG with Kolb, but what's the difference if Kolb cost us more PPG? Do we still have more PPG if we take out PP's return TDs and the TDs from short fields that the defense produced against Washington and Baltimore? I don't know.

Skelton put the D in bad positions more than Kolb did. Point that I'm making is that it is unlikely we would have fared any better with Skelton in those first 7 games than with Kolb.

Who knows? Kolb actively was losing games in the first half of last season. He's been basically playing slightly better now than he did in the Dallas game last year--which was still pretty bad for the first 4 quarters. I just don't get the argument that we wouldn't have been 1-6 last season if Kolb had some support from the defense. That doesn't align with the facts of the case.

 

[52brandon]

Kolb has the 3rd highest passer rating this season. 4 above Smith
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortab...e=passing&stat=passRate&dir=descending&state=

FYI

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Kolb has the 3rd highest passer rating this season. 4 above Smith
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortab...e=passing&stat=passRate&dir=descending&state=

FYI

19th in total QBR which is a more complete stat, but he doesn't really need to be any better than that.

 

[JeffGollin]

Kolb was losing games singlehandedly last year. So I don't get it...

The QB situation isn't static - it's a dynamic containing many different moving parts.

For example, the O-line is a work in progress with individual linemen learning their own craft and also learning the system and how to mesh with one another.

Ditto Kolb, Skelton and perfecting techniques, learning the system and getting to know their receivers & their tendencies.

All of these things are taking place at dissimilar rates of speed and in different ways for each QB. It shouldn't be surprising, therefore, tha one guy will look sucky a year ago and suddenly blossom in one game a year later. (And everything could change still again).

One thing that excites me is that our QB's and O-linemen now have 3 games more NFL experience under their belts and the learning curve hasn't cost us any W's.

 

[52brandon]

19th in total QBR which is a more complete stat, but he doesn't really need to be any better than that.

interesting he's so low for a guy only sacked 4 times (3 against the Eagles VERY talented pass rush) this year, only gave up one fumble, and hasn't thrown a pick in his last 5 games. I can't see 18 QBs being able to say that. As long as he can continue to keep drives going, I am more than happy with him behind center

 

[Russ Smith]

I wouldn't sign Alex Smith in 2007 to a free-agent contract to start for the Arizona Cardinals, either. Thankfully, we didn't have that choice. We could've signed Alex Smith in 2011 to a free-agent contract, who also wasn't a turnover machine. So what's your argument here?

I'm not sure what your contra-factual is on Kolb. If the defense were better early in the season (and they were good), would we not have lost by as much? Would Kolb have been limited in having to throw dumb INTs and fumbles that lost games? Yes, we scored more PPG with Kolb, but what's the difference if Kolb cost us more PPG? Do we still have more PPG if we take out PP's return TDs and the TDs from short fields that the defense produced against Washington and Baltimore? I don't know.



Who knows? Kolb actively was losing games in the first half of last season. He's been basically playing slightly better now than he did in the Dallas game last year--which was still pretty bad for the first 4 quarters. I just don't get the argument that we wouldn't have been 1-6 last season if Kolb had some support from the defense. That doesn't align with the facts of the case.

NOw I'm confused. Your contention is that Alex Smith's 82.1 passer rating in 2010 when he missed games due to injury and most wanted him gone was significantly better than Kevin Kolb's 81.1 passer rating in 2011 when he missed games due to injury and most here wanted him gone?

I'm clearly biased by what I saw by Alex earlier in his career before his coaches figured out what he can't do, but you're clearly biased by what he did LAST season which was after we would have been signing him. I firmly believe he wouldn't have done that here because the system here asks him to do more. We have a weaker OL, weaker rungame but because we have Fitz, the coach wants his QB to make plays.

Smith in 2010 was marginally better than Kolb in 2011, but in an offense that wasn't asking him to do as much. Admittedly the coaching stunk in 2010 for SF but that offense wasn't asking Smith to do that much just don't lose the games.

Everytime in his career Smith was put into a new offense and asked to actually do something, he turned the ball over a ton.

The only edge the 09 and 10 Smith had over the 11 Kolb was completion % and he played in an offense that didn't ask him to throw high risk passes. When you complete 60% of your passes but are under 7 YPA that shows you're not throwing the ball downfield.

As bad as Kolb was last year he was well over 7YPA.

And yes Kolb took a lot of bad sacks, Alex Smith is famous for taking sacks, even last year he took 44 with a good run game and good OL and not being asked to throw downfield.

You're assuming the Smith who looked so good for SF last year would have done the same thing here, I highly doubt that based on what the offense would have asked him to do.

We had what 3 safeties last year against us? Have you watched what SF does in that situation, they run the ball they do everything they can to not put Alex in a bad situation. Whiz wouldn't do that because he expects his QB to be able to operate in difficult situations.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

interesting he's so low for a guy only sacked 4 times (3 against the Eagles VERY talented pass rush) this year, only gave up one fumble, and hasn't thrown a pick in his last 5 games. I can't see 18 QBs being able to say that. As long as he can continue to keep drives going, I am more than happy with him behind center

The point of total QBR is to measure the the degree to which a QB contributed to scoring points for the team. The reason that Kolb is so low is because he isn't making big plays or creating a lot of scores for the team. Although like I said earlier, that is all he needs to do for this team to win.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Why does this exchange between Russ, who I agree with, and K9 seem eerily familiar to me?

 

[Mulli]

Why does this exchange between Russ, who I agree with, and K9 seem eerily familiar to me?

is this the 4th or 5th episode of the k9/russsmith debate?