Kings at Suns 2-13-2011

[Covert Rain]

What trade value do you see the other guys as having? Assuming there isn't a lockout, who wants to pay Frye and/or Warrick what we're paying them?

We're so good at saying "trade everybody!" but most of the time people don't understand that it takes two to tango. Right now, I'll be happy if only Carter is moved, he's dead weight right now. But he's also an expiring. An expiring benefits us just as much as it does another team, which is why the front office won't be too sad if they aren't able to trade him. Who even knows how much effort they are putting in to actually trade him anyway?

Childress would be a good trade asset, but since he gets no time, we're stuck with him. He even makes too much money to use as a throw-in.

You know as well as I do, there is almost always someone out there willing to take a shot at a player because they think you are using him wrong or because they think they can coach better. There are teams willing to take a bullet to get a 3 way trade made or because they want to make a deal work.

What is the alternative? Let these guys play out their contracts and continue the Suns futility in getting a title?

That's not the answer either.

The team is going to have to do a combination of trading and drafting to retool this franchise. Sitting on their hands with this roster and signing aging vets and mid tier players isn't going to get it done. The end game is a title. It's not being just good enough to make the playoffs.

 

[desertdawg]

I will enjoy it when we make it to the playoffs this year, but that's just how I roll.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns look better. I think with Gortat coming into his own and the team being a little more coheasive they look better. No doubt.

The problem is that "bettter" doesn't equal going anywhere. This team still has some glaring holes to fill. We still need a more consitant PF and "rent a Carter" is not working. Meaning that after this season we now have to fill both the PF and SG spots. Not to mention if we keep Nash he will be that much closer to the brick wall.

The reality is that this team as built has no shot at a title. Maybe they can get in on a trade after the offseason to bring in a piece. However, short of getting a star at the PF spot or SG spot this team doesn't even have a shot then.

My guess is this team is blown apart in the offseason.

Keep Gortat, Dudley, Pietrus and maybe Grant for some veteran leadership. Dowdell has even shown some positives and could be a good bench player. Everybody else is fair game for trade bait as far as I am concerned. You can't just build through the draft. To rebuild this team your going to have to trade. Either that or become the next Clippers.

The Suns have proven being good is not that hard to do. They got lucky when Amare dropped in the draft and the Suns signed Nash as a FA. Also the Suns got JJ after trading a couple of journeymen players. It just takes a good FO to put it together with a plan.

 

[Chaplin]

You know as well as I do, there is almost always someone out there willing to take a shot at a player because they think you are using him wrong or because they think they can coach better. There are teams willing to take a bullet to get a 3 way trade made or because they want to make a deal work.

What is the alternative? Let these guys play out their contracts and continue the Suns futility in getting a title?

That's not the answer either.

The team is going to have to do a combination of trading and drafting to retool this franchise. Sitting on their hands with this roster and signing aging vets and mid tier players isn't going to get it done. The end game is a title. It's not being just good enough to make the playoffs.

Again, it takes two to tango. And just getting rid of a player is half of it. We need to get assets in return. In most cases, what we'd get back is a bad contract--none of our guys (except maybe Nash) will help contending teams--the only way teams like that would trade for guys like Frye or Childress is if they have a very bad contract in return, and that would make things worse for us.

Trading with a perennial loser would probably garner us a better return, but then you have to ask why a team like Minnesota would want a guy like Childress, because they are trying to do the same thing we are--saving money and getting viable future assets back.

We can't just depend on another GM being a complete idiot. It doesn't work like that anymore.

 

[Mainstreet]

I will enjoy it when we make it to the playoffs this year, but that's just how I roll.

Will you keep rolling if they don't?

 

[slinslin]

We should use Carters contract to pick up a bad contract or two and take some unprotected draft picks for it like Oklahoma did to us..

Ofc not going to happen, we rather let the contract expire and maybe use some of the money so sign more mediocre role players to keep us at .500 forever.

3 bad years -> Using the Draft to rebuild and take on contracts in the first 2 years in exchange for picks that expire just before the rookies need to be paid that is the best strategy to use because after 3 years you have a talented young team PLUS capspace for proven stars that would be attracted to play with the up and comming talent we have in Phoenix.

 

[Chaplin]

Will you keep rolling if they don't?

From today's Coro blog:

Nash clarifies

Suns guard Steve Nash said he did not speak to his agent, Bill Duffy, to lead to Duffy's comments in an espn.com article that "We would expect that they (the Suns) may entertain moving him during the summer" and that he and Nash are "ready" for that.

"Sometimes, what's said is in the context of something else," Nash said. "I haven't spoken to him about it. I expect to be here (in Phoenix). I'm happy here. I expect to be here even next year.

"I don't even think about it. I'm just happy to try to make the playoffs."

Suns management often has stated an intent to not trade Nash.

 

[Chaplin]

We should use Carters contract to pick up a bad contract or two and take some unprotected draft picks for it like Oklahoma did to us..

Ofc not going to happen, we rather let the contract expire and maybe use some of the money so sign more mediocre role players to keep us at .500 forever.

3 bad years -> Using the Draft to rebuild and take on contracts in the first 2 years in exchange for picks that expire just before the rookies need to be paid that is the best strategy to use because after 3 years you have a talented young team PLUS capspace for proven stars that would be attracted to play with the up and comming talent we have in Phoenix.

Your first paragraph isn't going to happen. The 2nd option is more likely what IS going to happen.

I did read somewhere, and this is pure rumor and does not have any basis in fact, that we are looking to use Vince Carter to try to acquire Andre Igoudala.

 

[chickenhead]

A player not being traded does not = that the FO has no interest in doing so for the right return.

Nash still has incredibly tangible value to ownership right now. He's the face of the franchise and the main cog in a team that is over .500 at home even this season--and ownership needs fans in the seats on any given night. The team can't afford to trade him for any old pick. Even if they trade him for one that makes posters here happy, a lot of the fans are simply going to see it as their favorite Sun being traded for a draft pick, that will in turn probably be sold. And attendance will suffer.

I am not defending the above as a way to win a playoff round, let alone a championship. But there are pretty realistic reasons why ownership won't just blow it up.

 

[desertdawg]

Will you keep rolling if they don't?

I think we take the 6th or 7th spot in the west, but that is because I don't freak out after every bad game.
We have been beating the good clubs, on a pretty good roll right now. Don't like who we lost to but teams let up on scrub teams, it happens. But we are not the scrub team, and we are getting really good. Bad night last night, by everybody but Gortat and Nash, and he could have played better defense too. Nash made me laugh shooting that last 3 from almost halfcourt, but I will roll with him anyday.

 

[BC867]

He needs to be encased in glass with a sign that says "for emergency use only, in case of high profile game".

Funny stuff. But our game at Utah was pretty high profile and it didn't motivate Carter.

 

[Covert Rain]

Again, it takes two to tango. And just getting rid of a player is half of it. We need to get assets in return. In most cases, what we'd get back is a bad contract--none of our guys (except maybe Nash) will help contending teams--the only way teams like that would trade for guys like Frye or Childress is if they have a very bad contract in return, and that would make things worse for us.

Trading with a perennial loser would probably garner us a better return, but then you have to ask why a team like Minnesota would want a guy like Childress, because they are trying to do the same thing we are--saving money and getting viable future assets back.

We can't just depend on another GM being a complete idiot. It doesn't work like that anymore.

We see stupid trades every single year. We also see teams trying to move pieces so they might take on something they would not normally do so that it gives them a piece for another move. It's not all about being stupid on a GM's part. So, yes it does work like that still. I also agree we can't completely depend on that. That is why I said we also need to retool through the draft. You can't depend on one or the other.

You say we can't do it through the draft alone (which I agree), you say we can't do it through trades (which I don't completely agree). So, the only other option is to go with what we have. That isn't going to get it done either.

So I guess what your saying is we should just throw up our hands and hope for the best?

 

[Chaplin]

We see stupid trades every single year. We also see teams trying to move pieces so they might take on something they would not normally do so that it gives them a piece for another move. It's not all about being stupid on a GM's part. So, yes it does work like that still. I also agree we can't completely depend on that. That is why I said we also need to retool through the draft. You can't depend on one or the other.

You say we can't do it through the draft alone (which I agree), you say we can't do it through trades (which I don't completely agree). So, the only other option is to go with what we have. That isn't going to get it done either.

So I guess what your saying is we should just throw up our hands and hope for the best?

No, you CAN do it through trades, but if -- and ONLY if -- you have the right combination of assets. And we don't have that right now. We'll see what happens after Friday because Saturday is the first day that Carter and Pietrus can be traded.

Thing is, a Carter trade MUST bring us back something tangible, because really, a bad contract probably isn't any more preferable than having that cap space freed up. Carter is a weird situation because he may actually make too much money, even as an expiring. There's even been some speculation that Carter's low minutes are in preparation for a trade. But I don't buy that. He just stinks.

 

[Covert Rain]

There's even been some speculation that Carter's low minutes are in preparation for a trade. But I don't buy that. He just stinks.

Carter just plain looks old. I was watching him run up and down the court and he just can't do it. Even on the break, an older Grant Hill was outrunning Carter to the other end. For Carter's sake, he needs to go to a team with a methodical offense that walks the ball up.

 

[carey]

We'll see what happens after Friday because Saturday is the first day that Carter and Pietrus can be traded.

Actually it's Wednesday. The 16th is 60 days after they were acquired. Unless it's 60 Days from when the trade was league approved. Anyhow, I think it's a day or two sooner than Saturday.

 

[Chaplin]

Actually it's Wednesday. The 16th is 60 days after they were acquired. Unless it's 60 Days from when the trade was league approved. Anyhow, I think it's a day or two sooner than Saturday.

Yeah you're right. My source said the 18th because that was "2 months" from Dec. 18th. They were obviously wrong.

 

[BC867]

Carter just plain looks old. I was watching him run up and down the court and he just can't do it. Even on the break, an older Grant Hill was outrunning Carter to the other end. For Carter's sake, he needs to go to a team with a methodical offense that walks the ball up.

That's do-able. I was wondering if Gentry just-about-banished Carter after he failed miserably as the go-to guy with the game on the line just recently.

Or if he is advertising that Carter has to go. "Step right up, folks. Get it while it's hot. Give us a call!"

 

[Evil Ash]

Yeah you're right. My source said the 18th because that was "2 months" from Dec. 18th. They were obviously wrong.

RealGM says the 18th as well but who knows. Likely a trade would happen during the AllStar break as its the easiest time to do one

 

[Chaplin]

To help put a little perspective on things, the Lakers are down 15 to the Charlotte Bobcats at the end of the 3rd.

 

[elindholm]

To help put a little perspective on things, the Lakers are down 15 to the Charlotte Bobcats at the end of the 3rd.

It must be because Kwame Brown is such a terrific interior defender. After all, that's what Laker fans told us for years until the instant he was traded.

 

[Mainstreet]

To help put a little perspective on things, the Lakers are down 15 to the Charlotte Bobcats at the end of the 3rd.

Exactly what are you saying? Are you saying the Suns are just like the Lakers.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly what are you saying? Are you saying the Suns are just like the Lakers.

It seems a reasonable comparison. Didn't the Kings beat them in LA just a few weeks ago?

Steve

 

[devilalum]

It seems a reasonable comparison. Didn't the Kings beat them in LA just a few weeks ago?

Steve

If the Suns moved to Seattle and kept their name then they'd be like the Lakers.

 

[Mainstreet]

It seems a reasonable comparison. Didn't the Kings beat them in LA just a few weeks ago?

Steve

Of course the Lakers are 20 games over .500 (where the Suns are now) and playing at half speed while waiting for the playoffs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Suns moved to Seattle and kept their name then they'd be like the Lakers.

Let's do that! Maybe the Magic will send us Howard for Childress and Dwight's little brother who's tearing it up in the YMCA league. Nah, even that wouldn't make us the Lakers. We'd still need the refs to cheat for us in the playoffs when we face the Kings.