Joe Mama, I hope you posting now means you will return to posting to the forum on a regular basis like the good ol days.
Exactly what I said. Joe Mama?
hey guys, yeah it was fun yesterday. I lurk around occasionally during the summer and the draft, but I know I can't just post once or twice and leave it alone. Unfortunately I fear I may have started a bunch of fighting here, especially when I start off with what I understand is pretty inflammatory criticism of the #1 draft pick and hopeful Savior of the franchise. I see we also have quite a few people here still can't follow an argument objectively. Newsflash guys. I can be critical of a player and his development level without you guys acting like I just called your mom a fat pig. Oh yeah, and then I walked myself right into the whole Bender thing.
I'll address that in another message.
Yeah he got some numbers but it was very unimpressive.
He doesn’t know how to post up, he doesn’t block out to rebound, he does not play help defense well, he can’t seem to effectively run the pick and roll.
Not to say he can’t learn all that, it’s just disappointing he needs to learn all of that.
I am expecting he will improve a lot.
All I am saying is 90% of playground bigs know how to box out, and get post position, yet he seems to be terrible at both. I just don't understand how a 7 footer doesn't know how to do these things. I get his athleticism lets him get away with not playing fundamentally, but I think it speaks either very badly of U of A's coaching, or Deandre's willingness to learn that he still does not seem how to know how to do either properly.
I think I found my new best friend on the forum. Thank you for summing up my thoughts especially you Proximo. Of course I probably didn't help you by comparing him to Marquise Chriss (again without the poor body language) and using words like "clueless" instead of "raw". Like my new friend Proximo said, "it's just disappointing he needs to learn all of that." And I'll add it's disappointing he needs to learn all that when he is the #1 pick. The first several possessions of the first game I watched he just walked himself right up straight under the basket. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Nobody even had to push him… And by the way he got pushed around a lot more than I would have expected also.
I'm no expert but he looked a bit lost out there to me. I think we are going to spend the next season dreaming about a top flight PG.
Of course, once he's on the floor with Booker things will change and if he can put up 20 and 12 while lost that has to be a good sign.
yes said it yesterday. The best thing the organization could do right now if they want to help this team is find some veteran point guard who can effectively run the offense and keep defenses at least a little bit honest himself. Again, NOT Brandon Knight!
Yea not sure what your watching buddy. Its ridiculous the criticism Ayton is getting on here. This board is pretty bad at evaluating talent as a whole. Im sorry im gonna get a ton of heat for this but its just true. Half the time just go against what the majority of this boards opinion is and you will find the better players. Everyone loved Bender and some still do and he is straight garbage. People poo pooed the bridges trade but he will be a key piece to this team. When Ayton is ROTY and leads us to the playoffs i will serve the crow up fresh and hot.
does anybody really love Bender? No, I won't do this again. Different chat. I just wanted to make you an example of somebody who can't follow an objective argument., And if he is rookie of the year and actually helps us get to the playoffs there won't be any crow to serve up. Because there is no way the guy that we saw yesterday and the day before is going to do that. If we get anywhere near those lofty goals it will be because he and the coaching staff and his teammates have done an amazing job. The guy we saw the last couple days might put up some decent numbers. He might even get numbers on this Phoenix Suns team big enough to make him rookie of the year. He isn't going to get us sniffing the playoffs. Later
SUMMER LEAGUE.
Crazy how many people want him to be David Robinson from minute 1.
Hey chap. Hope you are doing well. I kind of expected a message like this from you and you delivered right on cue. I know what a jerk I am for saying that, and I'm sorry. At the same time I really do miss how fun that was at first when Mike O was going to the games and the Phoenix Suns message board first started. I'm trying to remember who all was there at first.
I also lurk occasionally on the TV message board and love what you and Cheese have to say there. I'm excited to check out his TV show. Oh yeah, I didn't expect David Robinson and you know that. Expected David Robinson's junior high fundamentals or at least hoped for them.
I make it a point to discuss the posts, not the poster. And this post is one of the most out-of-touch I have ever read.
Ayton's NBA experience consists of two Summer League games with no NBA veterans playing alongside him.
You find it disappointing that he needs to learn how to compete in the greatest basketball league in the world? After having played in college? And out of position?
Do you really think think that, as an amateur, he comes into the NBA as a polished, professional NBA Center?
I hope you are not an algebra teacher. "Hello, class, and welcome to Algebra I. It is disappointing that I have to teach you all of it." Don't let your Department Head hear you.
Jeez!
BC, you disappoint me. As soon as you start talking about his NBA experience, 2 Summer league games, Bob Loblaw (AD anybody?) You are missing the point. I didn't expect him to be so raw.
You bring up the math analogy, which is a good one.
It's not "hello class and welcome to algebra. It is disappointing that I have to teach you all of it.".
It's "hello Will Hunting (Ayton's physical attributes are that great) that I just took with the number one draft pick. Welcome to let's say, linear algebra. It's disappointing that I have to teach you algebra."
And what I'm hoping here is that the dude is incredibly driven and a real sponge learning this stuff. I've heard and read that is the case. I'm hoping he's a guy who is not satisfied putting up 20-12 in a summer league game. I hope to high hell he watches that broadcast and all of the things PJ Carlesimo was pointing out. Where's that quote regarding that…
It doesn't help that the entire broadcast was filled with an announcer that wanted to do nothing, but point out every negative thing that Ayton was doing on the court. I would be willing to bet a good amount of money that a lot less people would be pointing out negative things if that announcer wasn't spending so much time on that stuff.
There we go. Yes, in fact it helps quite a bit. Don't take everything is some personal attack on your favorite team. He was pointing out all the places that Ayton can and should improve. A lot of this is very fundamental basketball. For the most part I love listening to the summer league broadcast. I could turn off the TV (in fact most of the time I'm not looking at it at all other than the Phoenix Suns) I think it's great. Doris Burke in particular is fantastic.
If I'm the Phoenix Suns coaches I'm making Ayton watch that broadcast over and over. And then I'm asking Joel Embid to tweet about it repeatedly.
I mean I could even go and start criticizing his effort on a lot of those plays but I can only imagine what a storm that would cause here. I'm hoping a lot of that just had to do with him feeling kind of lost.
Oh yeah, don’t get my comments about areas of improvement wrong, I LOVE me some Ayton. He’s good and going to be great (I hope), but that doesn’t mean he can’t improve. He’s under a microscope (understandably right now as the #1 pick) so this is going to happen. Doesn’t mean people are down on him.
See Ouchie this is kind of what I'm thinking except I don't even feel like I'm putting him under a microscope. To me it's glaring that he is extremely raw… Much more than I would've expected after 25-12 at U of A and a full season of coaching in a top program.
He was one on two or three in most rebounding situations, bodying up someone just leaves someone else to get it while he is glued to his man.
Furthermore... again, he's farther along even in these areas being nitpicked, than virtually anyone I've ever seen at the same age.
Okay, I was with you a little bit on your first sentence there later in the game 2. However the 2nd sentence I think is just super hyperbole. In fact I would argue the opposite. I would say he's way behind in most of these areas being nitpick then virtually anyone I've seen after one year of major college. That's why I compared him to Marquise Chriss. Physically, athletically they are practically prototypes. I guess you could always throw a few more inches onto the wingspan but at some point they have to walk around with those things. Yeah I just don't understand how we could have been watching the same games. Maybe I stopped watching closely enough after a while.
Side note on Bamba: as I mentioned yesterday he's the one other guys at the top of the draft whose physical potential really intrigued me. Apparently he's ridiculously smart also. You mentioned that he drifted around and seemed to play lazily at times. That would definitely concern me, and the big question there. Is he going to be staying interested and driven enough in basketball to reach that potential. Oh, and will he be able to pack on a few pounds as well? But I totally get what you are saying about bust potential.
21/12 and people want more from Ayton? Good.
He looks more polished than any teenage big I've ever seen.
I think he's already got the skills to average 20-10 and play average to slightly above D... and I think it's obvious.
Unless you expected an MVP out the gate, I don't see you you can be disappointed.
21-12 on 72% shooting despite AWFUL guard play... I just don't see the disappointment being slightly warranted. He also looked worlds better than Bagley.
That stat line really says everything. There has been quite a bit of complaining about the way he played and yet he could have had like 30/12 in 29 minutes with some decent entry passes.
Of course he isn't perfect, but I think that just shows how much of a microscope he has on him right now. God forbid he have a few sub par minutes in 29 minutes of play. I would be willing to bet if you put this type of microscope on pretty much any player you will find minutes like those.
no, the stat line does not say it all. And for those of you who are going to be satisfied with 20-10 and we keep losing and losing because our defense sucks balls… Well I don't know what to say.
The above 3 posts are pretty similar. I did not expect MVP out of the gate. 21/12 is nice. I would have rather seen him look a little less lost and put up 15/8 though. I think you could have given the same opportunity to an undrafted Alvin Williams straight out of college and he would have easily put in 25/15 with a few blocks. Does this mean I want to take somebody else #1 and re-sign Williams, or maybe declare this a disaster after 2 games and go roll myself into a canal? No, it means the coaching staff has a lot of work to do with him. If you can't see that you are wearing some seriously rose-colored glasses.
I cannot see why people would be disappointed with Ayton. He could have had 40 points in this game if he got consistent entry passes. The league is built on the three point shot these days, but if you can get 70% plus on twos, you will win without hitting one three. Ayton is also working on defense. He actually asked out so he could clarify his defensive role. That is fantastic! That is incredible self-awareness.
you bring up the guard play. I would say at least half the time from what I saw the problem was not the guards throwing the passes. It was his inability to seal a block and open himself up for the pass.
seriously JC. You are better than that. He definitely looked in better shape in college.
He does. Not nearly as lean as he was during the college season. It is extremely obvious. Now I'm not saying he is in terrible shape, but for him he doesn't look nearly as lean as he did just a few months ago.
I will be looking forward to preseason for him. Not just because I want to see where he has made improvements, but I believe he will be in tip top shape and I want to see how big of a difference that makes.
I think many people expect more out of him than the typical 19 year old because he was the #1 overall pick and heralded as the most NBA ready player of the draft.
Yes, yes what these 2 just said. I'm excited just to see what changes from one game of summer league to the next and even within the games themselves. I'm super excited to watch him play tomorrow. See if he had some basic skills he should be able to just beat the hell out of Bamba. I haven't looked at the schedule but I really hope they play Chicago and Wendell Carter Junior. If we were looking to win right away I would have wanted him or JJ Jr. (more so the former).
I mean let me say this loud and clear. We drafted a physical, athletic freak. From what little I've seen he has really soft hands. His shot looks a little flat, but it's nice and goes in the basket. He can move his feet like a guard. I mean if you are a player development coach you have wet dreams about player like that… Probably even in today's NBA.
Apologize for the long, often repetitive rambling message. Go Suns!
Have a great night everyone!
Joe
