Kingsbury, The World’s Only 17 Point Offensive Genius

[football karma]

Kirk makes a catch on a perfect ball, and Zane hits a 45 yard field goal, and its a 27 point "bad game"

 

[sdscard4]

Kirk makes a catch on a perfect ball, and Zane hits a 45 yard field goal, and its a 27 point "bad game"

Post of the day!

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Post of the day!

Exactly, he was also held on that play with no flag thrown.

 

[daves]

Kyler Murray had 4 as a freshman at Texas A&M, then a 3 year gap, and then 14 starts as a Sr at Oklahoma.

2 year gap. Murray was drafted after his junior year.

...dave

 

[Chopper0080]

Probably a case of two things being true.
"Mahomes scouting report"

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article224076765.html

I've said before that I think if Kliff had a vet QB his offense would flow better. I think Kliff is a great play design, good play caller, but to be decided if he's a good QB developer. Mahomes didnt look much different between his SO and JR years imo.

Now do I think if Kliff was just an OC the offense would be better and QB would be better fundamentally? Absolutely. Same if he was just a HC and didnt have the responsibility as a play caller. This team would have far less penalties and be more disciplined. He's carrying a heavy duty that not even some of the brightest minds in the NFL handle in terms of being a HC/playcaller.

As far as college starts there is some truth to that. However, despite the starts Kyler was still more fundamentally sound that Mahomes imo. And if he started more games that would have been true as well. The real advantage Mahomes had in terms of his college experience was it was more difficult for him than Kyler.

Mahomes was use to a lesser talent on the outside, a young coach calling plays, not a great OLine, etc. So when he gets Andy Reid and the Chiefs weapons its like heaven. Meanwhile Kyler never really had to throw in a muddy pocket, force to throw without a running threat, etc etc.

You could argue he only had to do that at A&M because even in HS Kyler was at a powerhouse with a few NFL players on and Mahomes wasnt.

This is why imo Keim needed to be very offensive geared in the draft FA the past couple of years. I'd rather have ONE thing great about this team then it be inconsistent on both sides. You take the best WR available at the top of round 2 or draft an Olineman (2019 class).

Simmons has been GREAT lately, but I still wanted Oline or maybe another WR.

Kyler and Kliff have their issues, but I'd rather they worked it out with a full deck imo. Not explosive enough as a team imo outside of Kyler making big runs.

Now we have we what we have and thats fine. I'd just be of the mindset going forward about lets make sure offense is stacked next year to really find out about Kliff and Kyler.

Every game I watch Wirfs, I get a little bummed. Not because I don't like Simmons, I just feel like Wirfs would have really helped Kyler and this offense.

 

[Chopper0080]

2 year gap. Murray was drafted after his junior year.

...dave

Murray was a Jr.

True freshman at A&M.
Transfer year.
Year behind Mayfield, no starts.
Started his Jr year.

Still three year gap but I did forget that his transfer year did not count to his year of eligibility.

 

[SoonerLou]

Every game I watch Wirfs, I get a little bummed. Not because I don't like Simmons, I just feel like Wirfs would have really helped Kyler and this offense.

Yep.
DJ/Pugh?/Cole/Murray/Wirfs is a darn good Oline now and into the future.

In this division you need nasty Olineman. Wirfs is already a strong run blocker. These short yardage plays we struggle on get converted on his side.

Now if Vance or whoever uses Simmons right then you cant be too mad about it though.

 

[GatorAZ]

Murray was a Jr.

True freshman at A&M.
Transfer year.
Year behind Mayfield, no starts.
Started his Jr year.

Still three year gap but I did forget that his transfer year did not count to his year of eligibility.

Two year gap of not starting. Kinda crazy to think he had another year of eligibility left.

 

[BritCard]

Ok...so when implementing a system you always scheme to your players strengths and comforts to give that player the best chance for success. As players grow and develop their strengths and comfort levels in areas grow as well. They can do more and are more comfortable doing those things.

Here is what you are proposing that I think goes against the above...

-putting a young QB who has never really played from under C and playing with his back to the defense.

-putting a young player who struggles with mechanics and accuracy at times on the run to throw.

-asking a young QB who teams are scheming to keeping in the pocket to roll out into that outside contain technique.


Here is what you are proposing which I think is already being done...

-pre snap motion. We do this even if it is not at the frequency of other teams in the NFL. We did it more at the end of last year and have decreased our usage of it. I can't say for sure why, but I am sure there is a reason.

-designed RB pass plays. Designed RB pass plays take time to develop and Kyler tries to get the ball out of his hands very quickly. Also, the Cardinals use their RBs as blitz pickups so that also limits using them in the passing game.

-Passing game that uses the middle of the field. Deep crossing routes take time which requires a QB to sit in the picket and let develop. Kyler does not like to do this which is why those throws are not being attempted at a higher rate.

-TE work the middle of the field. Kyler struggles in the middle of the field. They are also not normally a primary read unless you have a top level TE on your roster. We don't.

###

Some of this is also choosing what players you want on the field. Do you want Fitz/Kirk or Dan Arnold? Isabella or Arnold? Maxx or Arnold? You only get 11 at a time and 5 are OL, 1 QB, 1 RB, and Hopkins. That makes 8 and you have to decide who you want for those other 3.

Ok lets tackle some of these,

-putting a young QB who has never really played from under C and playing with his back to the defense.

So every college QB? What college QB plays under center nowadays? Kyler has had 2 years to work on it. Plus we do do it rarely, so he can do it, we just need to do it more.

-putting a young player who struggles with mechanics and accuracy at times on the run to throw.

I'm not saying he should throw on the run, but as a mobile QB he damn well should be able too. I'm saying there should be more plays where he moves out of the pocket, resets and throws to open up areas of the field he struggles with. Rams do a tonne with Goff via bootlegs.

-asking a young QB who teams are scheming to keeping in the pocket to roll out into that outside contain technique.

I mean, we know whats coming. If Kliff can't design the play to protect Kyler out of the pocket then he shouldn't be a HC.

I'm not saying they should be doing this 20 plays a game. But it should be something in the locker to keep defenses on their toes.

 

[SoonerLou]

@TaylorSwift @BritCard Tyreke on Hill on Mahomes...

“I thought he was trash,” Hill said, “I ain’t gonna cap. I ain’t gonna cap. I ain’t even gonna cap, man. When he first got there I was like, this is who y’all drafted right here? This is who y’all drafted? Hey but look, he proved me into a whole complete, I don’t know. That second year, like his quarterback mechanics were different. It was like he was spending more time with his quarterback coach, spending more time with Coach Reid, like learning the offense. Dude was like different.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...on-of-patrick-mahomes-i-thought-he-was-trash/

 

[TaylorSwift]

@TaylorSwift @BritCard Tyreke on Hill on Mahomes...

“I thought he was trash,” Hill said, “I ain’t gonna cap. I ain’t gonna cap. I ain’t even gonna cap, man. When he first got there I was like, this is who y’all drafted right here? This is who y’all drafted? Hey but look, he proved me into a whole complete, I don’t know. That second year, like his quarterback mechanics were different. It was like he was spending more time with his quarterback coach, spending more time with Coach Reid, like learning the offense. Dude was like different.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...on-of-patrick-mahomes-i-thought-he-was-trash/

The type of quote that makes you uneasy about Kliff.

I wont say much about him until the end of the season but thats a damning quote.

I dont know if he is a qb development coach or just a play creator coach

I feel that he is more a creator than developer.


Goes to your point about how this offense would have been better with a Vet


I am starting to believe that too.

Would have been nice to have an Alex Smith type vet qb for Kyler to learn and glean knowledge and refine mechanical work with.

 

[Chopper0080]

Ok lets tackle some of these,

-putting a young QB who has never really played from under C and playing with his back to the defense.

So every college QB? What college QB plays under center nowadays? Kyler has had 2 years to work on it. Plus we do do it rarely, so he can do it, we just need to do it more.

-putting a young player who struggles with mechanics and accuracy at times on the run to throw.

I'm not saying he should throw on the run, but as a mobile QB he damn well should be able too. I'm saying there should be more plays where he moves out of the pocket, resets and throws to open up areas of the field he struggles with. Rams do a tonne with Goff via bootlegs.

-asking a young QB who teams are scheming to keeping in the pocket to roll out into that outside contain technique.

I mean, we know whats coming. If Kliff can't design the play to protect Kyler out of the pocket then he shouldn't be a HC.

I'm not saying they should be doing this 20 plays a game. But it should be something in the locker to keep defenses on their toes.

There is not a way to design a roll out to avoid a defensive player who is preventing your QB from getting outside the pocket. That is the entire point.

Also, I don't feel like you appreciate how much time and effort it takes to learn to play QB dropping from under C vs from the gun. This is the entire reason you see teams adapt their schemes to more gun sets. Guys in high school and college are not getting taught how to play with their backs to the defense. It is something that takes a significant amount of time and dedication to learn and is not something you can throw in the middle of a season. If you are trying to speed up Kyler's development, I don't see how adding something foreign and unfamiliar helps with that.

 

[Chopper0080]

The type of quote that makes you uneasy about Kliff.

I wont say much about him until the end of the season but thats a damning quote.

I dont know if he is a qb development coach or just a play creator coach

I feel that he is more a creator than developer.


Goes to your point about how this offense would have been better with a Vet


I am starting to believe that too.

Would have been nice to have an Alex Smith type vet qb for Kyler to learn and glean knowledge and refine mechanical work with.

This could be a very valid critique of Kliff. Hopefully if Kliff isn't seeing the progress he wants from Kyler, he will look to bring in additional coaching personnel to assist in his development.

Some of Mahomes development wasn't that he had Andy, but that he had Andy Reid, Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy all on the same staff.

 

[Russ Smith]

Exactly, he was also held on that play with no flag thrown.

That becomes a rabbit hole though. I can't remember which but either the LG or RG IMO jumped on the play where Cam ran for the first down and then Simmons got the roughing call. I was surprised they let the play go so even after he got the first down and I saw the flag on Simmons I was thinking it's going to be offsetting penalties all I was worried about was does a late hit penalty supersede a false start, but they didn't call the false start..

 

[daves]

Some of Mahomes development wasn't that he had Andy, but that he had Andy Reid, Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy all on the same staff.

Pederson was with the Eagles already when Mahomes was drafted, and Nagy left after Mahomes' rookie year.

...dave

 

[BritCard]

There is not a way to design a roll out to avoid a defensive player who is preventing your QB from getting outside the pocket. That is the entire point.

Also, I don't feel like you appreciate how much time and effort it takes to learn to play QB dropping from under C vs from the gun. This is the entire reason you see teams adapt their schemes to more gun sets. Guys in high school and college are not getting taught how to play with their backs to the defense. It is something that takes a significant amount of time and dedication to learn and is not something you can throw in the middle of a season. If you are trying to speed up Kyler's development, I don't see how adding something foreign and unfamiliar helps with that.

No, I don't. Considering Justin Herbert is 40% under center in year 1 after a pure shotgun offence at Oregon. Actually 9% more than under Rivers in 2019.

I'm not saying he should suddenly start learning it. I'm saying he should have been learning it for the last 2 years. In fact we don't know he hasn't. If coaches haven't been working with him under center too then they aren't very good coaches.

 

[Chopper0080]

Pederson was with the Eagles already when Mahomes was drafted, and Nagy left after Mahomes' rookie year.

...dave

My bad. This is the 2nd thing I have had my head up my butt about. Thanks Dave.

 

[Buckybird]

Add on top of that the connection between Kliff & Kyler. Is Kliff critical enough or too close in the relationship between the two too Coach Kyler hard enough? Does Kliff tell Kyler the truth of what his strengths & weaknesses are, or does he let Kyler get away with small things because of their past? Is Kliff or Clements teaching & trying to coach the mechanical issues out of Murray’s game?

Who is Kylers confidant in his game? His father Kevin or his coach Kliff? Hmmmm
There are pros & cons to KK being #1s HC

The type of quote that makes you uneasy about Kliff.

I wont say much about him until the end of the season but thats a damning quote.

I dont know if he is a qb development coach or just a play creator coach

I feel that he is more a creator than developer.


Goes to your point about how this offense would have been better with a Vet


I am starting to believe that too.

Would have been nice to have an Alex Smith type vet qb for Kyler to learn and glean knowledge and refine mechanical work with.

 

[TheCardFan]

No, I don't. Considering Justin Herbert is 40% under center in year 1 after a pure shotgun offence at Oregon. Actually 9% more than under Rivers in 2019.

Justin Herbert is 6-6.

Should 5-10 QB's take snaps under center?

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

That becomes a rabbit hole though. I can't remember which but either the LG or RG IMO jumped on the play where Cam ran for the first down and then Simmons got the roughing call. I was surprised they let the play go so even after he got the first down and I saw the flag on Simmons I was thinking it's going to be offsetting penalties all I was worried about was does a late hit penalty supersede a false start, but they didn't call the false start..

You're exactly right. One of their linemen moved early, I forgot about that until you mentioned it. Also, the "Shehawks" got away with multiple false starts that weren't called the week before. Just brutal officiating at times.

 

[Solar7]

Justin Herbert is 6-6.

Should 5-10 QB's take snaps under center?

I thought this was about records, and got so confused.

But, yes, if you are a starting QB in the NFL, you should be expected to do all things your job entails. Obviously, that does not mean that I think you should have Murray under center frequently, but you have to be capable.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Add on top of that the connection between Kliff & Kyler. Is Kliff critical enough or too close in the relationship between the two too Coach Kyler hard enough? Does Kliff tell Kyler the truth of what his strengths & weaknesses are, or does he let Kyler get away with small things because of their past? Is Kliff or Clements teaching & trying to coach the mechanical issues out of Murray’s game?

Who is Kylers confidant in his game? His father Kevin or his coach Kliff? Hmmmm
There are pros & cons to KK being #1s HC

This is a major concern as it allows bad habits to develop.

I can only hope Clements is working the same sort of work that he did with Rodgers

 

[Russ Smith]

You're exactly right. One of their linemen moved early, I forgot about that until you mentioned it. Also, the "Shehawks" got away with multiple false starts that weren't called the week before. Just brutal officiating at times.

I just checked it was the LG, he leaned back a bit and then flinched forward.

Also of interest, Cam said it was a penalty but then admitted "I was going to flop anyways" and said he slowed up hoping Simmons would hit him and draw the flag.

I couldn't tell if he was claiming he went down that hard because he flopped, I believe he slowed up trying to draw a flag, I don't believe he was flopping I think he got hit by a heat seeking missile.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not sure how false starts are on the coaching...

Do you really believe that being the most penalized team in the league is not a reflection on the head coach?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kirk makes a catch on a perfect ball, and Zane hits a 45 yard field goal, and its a 27 point "bad game"

And if my aunt had balls he’d be my uncle.
Those contributed to the loss just like Kliff’s balls shrivling over and over again was a contributing factor. And Kliff keeps doing the same thing. Over and over and over. He’s not learning. That’s the worst part.