Knicks coming apart

[elindholm]

"Spilling his protein shake" has definite euphemism potential.

 

[Yuma]

We havent had one since we lost the coin flip for Kareem. Anyone want to take me up on the Top 5 bet?

What's the top 5 bet?

 

[Errntknght]

A few posts back AF predicted that the Suns would 'right the ship' during our easy December schedule and end up the year in the top 5 in the WC. I'd take him up on it but I'd never remember I did it. Besides my idea of righting the ship has little to do with our regular season record. In my view of the game, if you're not making progress putting together a team that has a prayer of competing in playoffs, you're should look for another line of work. Crap, we might as well have D'Antoni running things. At least he had an excuse for not understanding how you win it all in the NBA, since he made his mark in a totally different world, but Gentry has no excuse.

 

[mojorizen7]

Righting the ship in the name of pure entertainment is enough for some fans......and with that mentality, criticism and objectivity is a four-letter word.

Hey AZ's Finest Homer....here i am! I'm back where ya told me to go....
Be careful what you wish for.
*********************
IMO Gentry is simply doing what he's told. There's no way that he'd willingly destroy his once outstanding bench in favor of running Nash/Hill into the ground,while leaning on small forwards to mix it up inside week after week to no avail.

 

[Trifecta]

A few posts back AF predicted that the Suns would 'right the ship' during our easy December schedule and end up the year in the top 5 in the WC. I'd take him up on it but I'd never remember I did it. Besides my idea of righting the ship has little to do with our regular season record. In my view of the game, if you're not making progress putting together a team that has a prayer of competing in playoffs, you're should look for another line of work. Crap, we might as well have D'Antoni running things. At least he had an excuse for not understanding how you win it all in the NBA, since he made his mark in a totally different world, but Gentry has no excuse.

I don't really get why you seem to blame Gentry for everything. It wasn't his call to go into this season with 1 centre and no power forward. He's just doing what he can with the sh*t hand he's been dealt.

 

[Ronin]

Yeah and got booed off the floor. Plus Amare spilled his Protein Shake on his shoes

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=5856346

I blame Nash.

 

[Ronin]

Ugh, I just read the Amare article"I was never taught defense." How come Amare never has headlines like "I never put the effort on defense" or "I'm a poor defender".

Love his indirect shots at everybody else.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Righting the ship in the name of pure entertainment is enough for some fans......and with that mentality, criticism and objectivity is a four-letter word.

Hey AZ's Finest Homer....here i am! I'm back where ya told me to go....
Be careful what you wish for.
*********************
IMO Gentry is simply doing what he's told. There's no way that he'd willingly destroy his once outstanding bench in favor of running Nash/Hill into the ground,while leaning on small forwards to mix it up inside week after week to no avail.

You didn't understand the tenor of my post. I am not saying I am okay with the way the team has been constructed. In fact at this point Turkleglue looks like a big mistake, although I am willing to be patient about that.

My point was more a testament to Nash and the consistency of this team. ErrnKnight was lamenting the state of the team and how we were "falling apart" - my contention is merely that we will be the same team we always are by years end. 50+ wins and Top 5. Not thats good enough but I am not sure we could have pulled off the Durant/Lebron three way trade I had been hoping for to make us champs this season

I just don't think things are as bad as they seem even at 8-8 (9-8 now)

And Mojo good to have you here. You ALMOST give off a semblance of knowing what your talking about on this forum. Almost

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ahh perspective is a funny thing. I just looked at the schedule this upcoming month. Expect the Suns to have "righted the ship" and be in the Top 5 in the West at the end of December. And then everyone will be singing the same old plaudits and really not much will have changed.

Our biggest problem has been a) completely new team playing and getting adjusted b) rough and tumble schedule to begin.

Same ol story time and time again. We will win 50+ games and lose in the second round. The only difference is that its Nov 27th.

And for anyone still wondering, Steve Nash is an absolute god. Does this guy make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S--- better then anyone else or what?

I'd be absolutely stunned if either of those things happened. IMO, our difficult schedule ends at the 33rd game mark and I don't see us being above .500 at that point. One of my concerns about this start is that Nash's competitive drive would lead to overuse. The guy cannot continue to play 35 minutes per game and continue to play at his current level, IMO.

We're doing slightly better at this stage than I expected but not enough to make me think top 5 is in our future. I thought we'd have 7 or 8 wins at this point and 15 or so wins after 33 games. If we haven't used Nash up by then I think we will get back in the playoff race but I think we'll be in a group of 3 or 4 teams fighting for that last spot.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I thought we'd have 7 or 8 wins at this point

I'm almost positive you predicted 5-13 on more than one occasion.

If we haven't used Nash up by then I think we will get back in the playoff race but I think we'll be in a group of 3 or 4 teams fighting for that last spot.

But if the last several years are any indication, those same 3 or 4 teams will also be fighting for the 7th, 6th, etc. spots. The bottom three seeds last season all had identical records.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm almost positive you predicted 5-13 on more than one occasion.

You're right, when I first took a look at this team and our schedule I thought we'd be somewhere around 5 - 13. We started much better than I thought so I revised my expectations. From the beginning, I expected to start out 1-3 or 0-4 so our 1-3 record didn't surprise me but I was pleasantly surprised by the way the team played. I also initially expected something along the lines of 9 or 10 wins through the first 33 games but now I think we'll do 6 - 8 games better.

I haven't changed my opinion about the way fans will react to our start and ultimately what our FO might do as a result of declining interest. Even on this board you can already see the mood darkening daily. I was halfway kidding when I claimed I'd be the last optimist standing in a month or two but it will be a small group.

But if the last several years are any indication, those same 3 or 4 teams will also be fighting for the 7th, 6th, etc. spots. The bottom three seeds last season all had identical records.

Sure, it could go down that way but it could easily be 4 teams fighting for the last spot until late in the season. It also probably depends on what point of the season we're talking about. It's not unusual for a team to be in the running and then once they drift a game or two away they collapse and finish 5 games out of the standings despite having been in the fight for much of the season.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Righting the ship in the name of pure entertainment is enough for some fans......and with that mentality, criticism and objectivity is a four-letter word.

Hey AZ's Finest Homer....here i am! I'm back where ya told me to go....
Be careful what you wish for.
*********************
IMO Gentry is simply doing what he's told. There's no way that he'd willingly destroy his once outstanding bench in favor of running Nash/Hill into the ground,while leaning on small forwards to mix it up inside week after week to no avail.

Sarver's fault AGAIN? Now you're implying that Sarver is actually coaching the team as well. Nice.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'd be absolutely stunned if either of those things happened. IMO, our difficult schedule ends at the 33rd game mark and I don't see us being above .500 at that point. One of my concerns about this start is that Nash's competitive drive would lead to overuse. The guy cannot continue to play 35 minutes per game and continue to play at his current level, IMO.

We're doing slightly better at this stage than I expected but not enough to make me think top 5 is in our future. I thought we'd have 7 or 8 wins at this point and 15 or so wins after 33 games. If we haven't used Nash up by then I think we will get back in the playoff race but I think we'll be in a group of 3 or 4 teams fighting for that last spot.

Steve

I've watched enough of the West to know that only Utah, LA, and the Spurs are definitely better then us. I think New Orleans falls apart later on, which gives me a 1 team cushion.

I'll take your avatar for a week if it is, and you get mine if its not.

Elindholm knows I am good for it

 

[AzStevenCal]

I've watched enough of the West to know that only Utah, LA, and the Spurs are definitely better then us. I think New Orleans falls apart later on, which gives me a 1 team cushion.

I'll take your avatar for a week if it is, and you get mine if its not.

Elindholm knows I am good for it

I'm fine with that but just so we're clear. Are we betting on the top 5 by end of December or the 50 win season? I'd take either bet so you can make the choice. If we go for top 5, two way tie (or more) is a wash.

By the way, I think Dallas, New Orleans, Portland and OKC are also better than us. At the low end, I think once the Clippers get back their 2 missing starters they'll be right there with us fighting for that last spot.

Steve

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'm fine with that but just so we're clear. Are we betting on the top 5 by end of December or the 50 win season? I'd take either bet so you can make the choice. If we go for top 5, two way tie (or more) is a wash.

By the way, I think Dallas, New Orleans, Portland and OKC are also better than us. At the low end, I think once the Clippers get back their 2 missing starters they'll be right there with us fighting for that last spot.

Steve

I have been wanting to stop looking at that ugly azz avatar anayway. Lets say Top 5 end of season playoff finish.

 

[BC867]

Sarver's fault AGAIN? Now you're implying that Sarver is actually coaching the team as well. Nice.

Don't you think that the owner or GM who signs a particular player and overpays him for his contribution to the team lets his Head Coach know that he wants to see more playing time to justify his moves?

It has been the case forever, not just with the Suns. Just as in private industry, whoever is filling the HR function thinks about one thing more than what is best for the team. His own reputation. Thirty years in management taught me that. It's even more glaring with an obscene pay scale, such as athletes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have been wanting to stop looking at that ugly azz avatar anayway. Lets say Top 5 end of season playoff finish.

Aww, gee, you're avatar's not THAT ugly. Top 5 end of season finish, are we tossing out ties or do you mean top 5 seed?

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Don't you think that the owner or GM who signs a particular player and overpays him for his contribution to the team lets his Head Coach know that he wants to see more playing time to justify his moves?

It has been the case forever, not just with the Suns. Just as in private industry, whoever is filling the HR function thinks about one thing more than what is best for the team. His own reputation. Thirty years in management taught me that. It's even more glaring with an obscene pay scale, such as athletes.

Don't be fooled, Alvin Gentry has had input in every move we've made, including the Hedo trade. It's naive to think otherwise.

 

[mojorizen7]

Don't be fooled, Alvin Gentry has had input in every move we've made, including the Hedo trade. It's naive to think otherwise.

Input? Sure maybe a little,but it's not like Alvin has established a coaching M.O. at this point in his career....enough of an M.O. that when he was re-signed to coach here that Sarver said "Ok Alvin,its your team now. What direction do you think we should take going forward?"
Gentry coaches hustle & hardwork. I don't equate those attributes to guys like Hedo the Turk and Channing Frye.

D'Antoni had a vision and the ownership/front office trusted him and ran with it. Those were DA's teams make no mistake.....and D'Antoni's blueprint is still here. Sarver recognized it's dollar value.(Goodbye Kerr...)

This is NOT Alvin Gentry's roster for the most part, and i certainly don't believe that Gentry prefer's to coach a team that faces an uphill battle in the trenches every night. Who would?

Do you think that THESE are the players that Gentry wanted? Do you think that Gentry enjoys coaching a basketball team that routinely allows 110 ppg to his opponents?
If Gentry was hired by a GM(other than PHX) and that ficticious team was in a transitional phase,is THIS what Gentry would strive for?

I don't think so Chap....not for one minute.

Sarver deserves the praise,and the blame for the product on the court. Its his product....especially since the mysterious,untimely dissappearance of one Steve Kerr,who most definately had begun to put his stamp on this team since the day DA walked away.

Is Gentry being outcoached on a nightly basis? I think not.

 

[BC867]

Input? Sure maybe a little,but it's not like Alvin has established a coaching M.O. at this point in his career....enough of an M.O. that when he was resigned to coach here that Sarver/GM said "Ok Alvin,its your team now. What direction do you think we should take going forward?"
Gentry coaches hustle & hardwork,and thats something the prior regime lacked IMO. Although D'Antoni had a vision and the ownership/front office trusted him and ran with it. Those were DA's teams make no mistake. This is NOT Alvin Gentry's roster for the most part, and i certainly don't believe that Gentry prefer's to coach a team that faces an uphill battle in the trenches every night.

Do you think that THESE are the players that Gentry wanted? Do you think that Gentry enjoys coaching a basketball team that routinely allows 110 ppg to his opponents?
If Gentry was hired by a GM(other than PHX) and that ficticious team was in a transitional phase,is THIS what Gentry would strive for?

I don't think so Chap....not for one minute.

Sarver deserves the praise,and the blame for the product on the court. Its his product....especially since the mysterious,untimely dissappearance of one Steve Kerr, who most definately put his stamp on this team since the day DA walked away.

Is Gentry being outcoached on a nightly basis? I think not.

I appreciate your sharing my point of view, mojo. It's good to see your post discussing valid opinions, rather than seeing them brushed aside by calling them naive as in the post you responded to.

I hope that Warrick getting only 27 minutes in the game . . . and Barron getting only 9 1/2 of the available 18 minutes at Center with Frye in foul trouble isn't another example of Gentry having to cater to contracts rather than his best on-court options.

Warrick, Hill and Hedo each got about the same amount of playing time, with some of Warrick's coming at Center. Right now, Warrick should get the bulk of the time at PF and should not be playing Center at 220 lbs.

 

[Chaplin]

I appreciate your sharing my point of view, mojo. It's good to see your post discussing valid opinions, rather than seeing them brushed aside by calling them naive as in the post you responded to.

Nice one, BC. I expect nothing less from you.

I hope that Warrick getting only 27 minutes in the game . . . and Barron getting only 9 1/2 of the available 18 minutes at Center with Frye in foul trouble isn't another example of Gentry having to cater to contracts rather than his best on-court options.

Warrick, Hill and Hedo each got about the same amount of playing time, with some of Warrick's coming at Center. Right now, Warrick should get the bulk of the time at PF and should not be playing Center at 220 lbs.

You guys are crazy giving everyone EXCEPT Sarver a free pass. YES, Sarver is to blame for actually paying these guys this much money. No doubt about that. But to say that he's to blame for every single bad thing is naive. Yes, it is, even for old timers like you, BC. Sarver shares the blame for the bad things that happen just like he shares the success when good things happen.

Now, mojo (and apparently you, BC) are saying that Gentry has little or no input on acquisitions? That's so wrong, it's hard to know where to begin.

 

[mojorizen7]

Now, mojo (and apparently you, BC) are saying that Gentry has little or no input on acquisitions? That's so wrong, it's hard to know where to begin.

I'm saying little input,yes.
I think if you were to compare Gentry's input to a HC like D'Antoni had,which was alot.....even before and after he became interim GM, Alvins blueprint on this roster personnel-wise is relatively small.

READ: > IMO Sarver had relinquished much power to Kerr after DA's departure. Then when Kerr F'ed up the Porter hiring(along with the personnel needed to transition to life beyond D'Antoni), Sarver pushed for Gentry who he thought could produce similiar results and satisfy Kerr's push for a more balanced team offensively & defensively.

When it became obvious to Kerr that this team needed to continue to transition & rebuild Sarver baulked(after watching his team overachieve to the WCF) and decided that there was no business advantage to going that route,and probably felt that he himself(along with his new "Yes sir" front office)could just continue to put pieces around an old,but still exciting and very marketable Steve Nash for the next 3 years and keep the masses happy with the kind of basketball that put PHX back on the map in the first place 5 years earlier.

I think it's a solid,short term business plan, with no future in terms of basketball.
It sucks and i would LOVE to give a s*** again but it's very difficult for me to watch SUNS basketball these days.

Thank God for my football teams resurgence,or i'd probably have to start watching hockey again.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin,

Now, mojo (and apparently you, BC) are saying that Gentry has little or no input on acquisitions? That's so wrong, it's hard to know where to begin.

Chap, didn't you recently claim, when I was complaining about Gentry's handling of the team, that he just used the players the players the FO foisted on him and did the best he could? In fact, we, including you, don't know exactly how the decisions are arrived at... except that we are very happy with the outcome.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin,

Chap, didn't you recently claim, when I was complaining about Gentry's handling of the team, that he just used the players the players the FO foisted on him and did the best he could? In fact, we, including you, don't know exactly how the decisions are arrived at... except that we are very happy with the outcome.

Of course he's doing the best he could. But he had input on getting these guys. Perhaps he's not having as easy a time as he thought. I just dispute that every single bad thing that ever happens is solely on Sarver's head.

Get rid of Sarver now and we'd still be a mediocre team.

 

[Errntknght]

Ultimately, everything bad or good is on Sarver (and his as-far-as-we-know silent co-owners). He/they decide who to hire to help run the team and listen to them or not as they choose. So blaming Sarver for whatever you dislike about the Suns moves is hardly irrational.