Knicks coming apart

Chaplin

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The Knicks can't outright sign Carmelo without giving up most of their good young players. The league just doesn't work like that. And by the time they will have rebuilt enough to provide a supporting cast, Amare's knees will be gone and it will all be for nothing.
 

AfroSuns

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The Knicks can't outright sign Carmelo without giving up most of their good young players. The league just doesn't work like that. And by the time they will have rebuilt enough to provide a supporting cast, Amare's knees will be gone and it will all be for nothing.

Like the Lakers lost good players to get Gasol? look at where they are now. 3 finals appearance 2 championships.
Nothing is impossible, still praying and hoping the Suns will hit a windfall like that too someday. :)
 

Bufalay

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The Knicks can't outright sign Carmelo without giving up most of their good young players.

Why not? He can be a free agent at the end of the season and the Knicks only have only 42 million in salaries next season. Seems like that puts them in a pretty good position to sign him.
 

Ronin

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Sooooo How much credit does D'antoni get for turning around the knicks?
 

cly2tw

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It's not about that Amare gets his stats, it's about how he gets it. He has been steadily improveing on defense and also willing passer avg. over 2 asst per game. All signs hint to his becoming another franchise player who greatly improve their game after separation from Nash, after Dirk and JJ.

As to Knicks's PO potential, it depends for one on how Felton continues his improvement of PG skills. For two, on whether they get another adequate bigman of the caliber of Robin Lopez to reduce defensive pressure on Amare. Defense will be DA's teams' weak link. Amare is currently NYK's weaklink on defense after he gets into foul troulbe, which always happens as long as he starts at the C.
 

Budden

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I thought he'd still get his stats, but it would be harder for him. I also thought the team would suck overall and he'd be a malcontent by mid-season (still bet that'll happen). D'Antoni is pretty good at designing offensive plays though (especially inbounds plays) so it looks like he's found ways to get Amare the ball.

Still, the NY Knicks have had the easiest schedule in the league according to Hollinger's SOS stat. Let's see what happens to their record & team chemistry once they face a few tough opponents. Amare's already spoken out once about not being used to losing & that was while they were facing weak competition.

There's not a lot of comments/recurring themes on this message board that make me angry, but the idea of Amar'e being a malcontent is definitely one of them. I think the reason it irks me so much is that it's an argument that can only take place if you throw out logic and ignore all evidence. Amar'e was extremely impressive last season in the way he handled the incessant trade rumors. He had a couple subpar games, but it wasn't because of a lack of effort, it was because it's a lot of emotional pressure to be under going to bed at night knowing that you very well might be on a different team when you wake up. Even still, the team went on a road trip and he was back to playing at top form. And no matter how he was producing on the basketball court, he acted with incredible professionalism and his commitment to this team never wavered for as long as he was a Phoenix Sun. He didn't run his mouth in the press about being under-appreciated, despite being constantly goaded by the media to do so.

And if you want to talk about the comment that he made about being in a losing situation in New York, his comments were correct. The Knicks as an organization have had a culture where losing isn't so bad. Coming from a perrenial 50+ win Suns team, he said that he didn't feel there was that sense of disappointment and urgency in the lockerroom following a loss. He wasn't blaming anybody specifically - D'Antoni said Amar'e had the right idea, although he thought that Amar'e still should've used the word "we" rather than "guys" - he was saying that he recognized the need to change the culture of the organization that has developed over the last decade of mediocrity. D'Antoni has said that Amar'e has been a phenomenal leader, putting his arm around guys when they get down, being vocal, and also being willing to follow the other team leaders like Ray Felton when they have stuff to say.

So if you want to call Amar'e a malcontent, that's your perogative. Just know that when people respond by saying you're an idiot (like me: I'm saying you're either woefully misinformed, ignorant, or just a flat out imbecile), they at least can point to your stated opinions as evidence.
 

SunsTzu

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Why not? He can be a free agent at the end of the season and the Knicks only have only 42 million in salaries next season. Seems like that puts them in a pretty good position to sign him.

Yeah the only decent player they'll lose by letting contracts expire is Azubuike and he's been injured most this season anyway so I doubt they'd miss him if it meant they got Melo.
 

Chaplin

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What I find funny is how much more people here like the Knicks than they like the Suns.

They still have poor personnel outside of Amare and to a lesser extent Felton and Chandler. Anthony Randolph has an outside chance of being good for them, but he's nowhere near a game-changer. And Galinari has regressed.
 

ASUCHRIS

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What I find funny is how much more people here like the Knicks than they like the Suns.

They still have poor personnel outside of Amare and to a lesser extent Felton and Chandler. Anthony Randolph has an outside chance of being good for them, but he's nowhere near a game-changer. And Galinari has regressed.

Wouldn't you trade their roster for ours? In case you hadn't noticed, this team without Nash is garbage, and a perennial lottery team.
 

elindholm

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Wouldn't you trade their roster for ours? In case you hadn't noticed, this team without Nash is garbage, and a perennial lottery team.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Knicks without Stoudemire are garbage, and may be a lottery team even with him.

The main strength to the Knicks' roster right now is that they have only one long-term contract, so they're in a good free-agent position. But they were in a great free-agent position last summer too, and came up nearly empty. Good players aren't going to go there until they see some real signs of hope, and beating up on weaklings isn't it. The Knicks have only two wins against Sagarin's top 16 so far this season, which places them in the league's bottom ten in that category. (The Suns have five and even the Clippers -- the Clippers! -- have three.)

So no, I wouldn't trade the Suns' roster for the Knicks'. Neither is all that appealing, frankly, but the Suns have more talent, even though they are paying more for it.
 

carrrnuttt

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Wow, really? $100 million for four years on the court and sniffing the playoffs?

Considering they've been profitable as a business, even while overpaying for players that never worked out and being in the bottom of the league for the past decade, 100 million for someone that even remotely makes them relevant, and is actually helping them win is worth at least that for them, methinks.
 

ASUCHRIS

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In case you hadn't noticed, the Knicks without Stoudemire are garbage, and may be a lottery team even with him.

The main strength to the Knicks' roster right now is that they have only one long-term contract, so they're in a good free-agent position. But they were in a great free-agent position last summer too, and came up nearly empty. Good players aren't going to go there until they see some real signs of hope, and beating up on weaklings isn't it. The Knicks have only two wins against Sagarin's top 16 so far this season, which places them in the league's bottom ten in that category. (The Suns have five and even the Clippers -- the Clippers! -- have three.)

So no, I wouldn't trade the Suns' roster for the Knicks'. Neither is all that appealing, frankly, but the Suns have more talent, even though they are paying more for it.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My argument is not that the Knicks are a better team than the Suns right now. It's that you take away Nash, and the Suns have nothing but a bunch of average players with some questionable contracts and no flexibility. The Knicks at least have a star to build around, and some interesting young pieces, as well as flexibility.

I'm sure you've watched the Suns play without Nash. It's not pretty. Sure you can couch that by saying, they're unfamiliar without him, Goran isn't used to starting, etc, but the bottom line is that there are going to be some major growing pains when Nash leaves and the aftermath is not a very appetizing roster.
 

AzStevenCal

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In case you hadn't noticed, the Knicks without Stoudemire are garbage, and may be a lottery team even with him.

The main strength to the Knicks' roster right now is that they have only one long-term contract, so they're in a good free-agent position. But they were in a great free-agent position last summer too, and came up nearly empty. Good players aren't going to go there until they see some real signs of hope, and beating up on weaklings isn't it. The Knicks have only two wins against Sagarin's top 16 so far this season, which places them in the league's bottom ten in that category. (The Suns have five and even the Clippers -- the Clippers! -- have three.)

So no, I wouldn't trade the Suns' roster for the Knicks'. Neither is all that appealing, frankly, but the Suns have more talent, even though they are paying more for it.

I'd swap rosters even if the 2 big names (Nash and Stat) were missing from the deal. Their roster isn't saddled long-term with Hedo and out of all the players, I think Fields has the best future. I don't know which star-less team would win in a head-to-head matchup today but long term, I'd definitely take the Knicks. But, as you said, neither is all that appealing.

Steve
 

jbeecham

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So if you want to call Amar'e a malcontent, that's your perogative. Just know that when people respond by saying you're an idiot (like me: I'm saying you're either woefully misinformed, ignorant, or just a flat out imbecile), they at least can point to your stated opinions as evidence.

1st of all, no need for a personal attack. Secondly, my opinion is that Amare is going to regret his decision to go to the Knicks... especially once they play tougher competition (still the easiest schedule in the league) and start losing. Amare has a very high opinion of himself and he's not going to like losing & missing the playoffs. I know that he handled himself pretty well here, but he was in the playoffs almost every year he was in Phx. Handling trade rumors is different that handling constant losing on a sub-par team when you're used to winning.

There is a chance he'll turn that team around and help them become a better team... they should have a chance at the playoffs in the weak east (only 4 strong teams). Still, i think that once times gets tough then Amare & the NY Knicks are going to tailspin. I've got nothing against Amare... I wish he was still on the Suns.
 

AfroSuns

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1st of all, no need for a personal attack. Secondly, my opinion is that Amare is going to regret his decision to go to the Knicks... especially once they play tougher competition (still the easiest schedule in the league) and start losing. Amare has a very high opinion of himself and he's not going to like losing & missing the playoffs. I know that he handled himself pretty well here, but he was in the playoffs almost every year he was in Phx. Handling trade rumors is different that handling constant losing on a sub-par team when you're used to winning.

There is a chance he'll turn that team around and help them become a better team... they should have a chance at the playoffs in the weak east (only 4 strong teams). Still, i think that once times gets tough then Amare & the NY Knicks are going to tailspin. I've got nothing against Amare... I wish he was still on the Suns.

You also have to argue that they will get better as the season progress. His winning mentality might just rub off on his team mates. Amare makes those around him better, definetly not as much as Nash, but the way the other team guards him leaves other players open.
Knicks main problem was what has plagued the Suns; blowing leads, something the Suns also do against weak teams. They have the personnel to put up points; 3rd in Offense in the league. They are guarding this weak teams better than we were. I still think they make the east playoffs, which is huge for their franchise.
 

elindholm

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It's that you take away Nash, and the Suns have nothing but a bunch of average players with some questionable contracts and no flexibility.

They have plenty of flexibility. If Nash is gone and Richardson isn't retained, the Suns' payroll is only in the mid-$30Ms.

The Knicks at least have a star to build around, and some interesting young pieces

The young pieces are "interesting" only because we haven't had as much time to see their weaknesses. If an unknown team were trotting out Dragic or a healthy Lopez for a handful of minutes each game, we'd consider those players "interesting" too. And heck, we might consider Frye downright appealing.

I'm sure you've watched the Suns play without Nash. It's not pretty.

That's because they're playing with no PG at all. Dragic is, at best, a combo guard who is probably better suited as a poor man's Ginobili rather than as a creator. So yes, once Nash is gone, the Suns will need a competent PG. No argument there.

but the bottom line is that there are going to be some major growing pains when Nash leaves and the aftermath is not a very appetizing roster.

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't see the Knicks' situation as any better. Would you really want to sit through their "growing pains" a couple of years from now while Stoudemire is on the shelf for another season?
 

elindholm

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Felton and Stoudemire seem like pretty good players.

Felton is a career 41% shooter who is enjoying a brief run of lighting up bad defensive teams. If he can sustain his current numbers through the All-Star break, we'll talk.
 

Bufalay

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Felton is a career 41% shooter who is enjoying a brief run of lighting up bad defensive teams. If he can sustain his current numbers through the All-Star break, we'll talk.

We'll talk about how the Knicks signed two All-Stars this summer.
 

jagu

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I'm sure you've watched the Suns play without Nash. It's not pretty. Sure you can couch that by saying, they're unfamiliar without him, Goran isn't used to starting, etc, but the bottom line is that there are going to be some major growing pains when Nash leaves and the aftermath is not a very appetizing roster.


That's pretty unfair to Dragic. It's not like Gentry has designed a system for Dragic to play as a starter. Dragic excelled in one game in a starting role this year with 17 points and 10 assists. Yea he wasn't looking great in the other starts but this guy has serious talent and he is playing pretty good now. I don't mind growing pains with Dragic. I think he can be a starter in this league.
 

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