Knicks coming apart

[elindholm]

but in the end, we aren't winning a championship with him in the forward or center position because defense wins championships

The Suns won't win a championship for at least the next ten years, which will be after Stoudemire has retired, so that's not a useful yardstick. I think a lot of this board is in denial about how far the Suns are from being relevant again. It's not enough to say "blow it up and rebuild"; it takes time even to acquire the assets to rebuild.

Getting a top-3 pick, for example, hardly helps. Let's look at the last 12 years of those picks:

1999: Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles
2000: Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis
2001: Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol
2002: Yao Ming, Jay Williams, Mike Dunleavy
2003: LeBron James, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony
2004: Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon
2005: Andrew Bogut, Marvin Williams, Deron Williams
2006: Andrea Bargnani, LaMarcus Aldridge, Adam Morrison
2007: Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Al Horford
2008: Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, O. J. Mayo
2009: Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, James Harden
2010: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors

Of the 36 players on that list, only three -- three! -- have won titles: Gasol, Milicic, and Morrison. Milicic and Morrison were bench-warmers, so they don't count. That means it's really just Gasol, and of course even he would be nowhere had he not been gifted to the Lakers.

The other 33 have a few deep playoff runs between them, but that's it. And furthermore, none of the teams who drafted any of those players -- not a single one -- has won a title since making that pick, whether or not the player is still on the team. (Edit: Oops, Detroit won after taking Milicic. That's one.) And in almost every instance where the player has left the team since being drafted, the team is no better off than they were when the player was there.

Some of them may still get their chance, of course. But the point is, having a high lottery pick has, at least for the last twelve years, been terrible at getting a team to championship-caliber. You can make a bunch of excuses about supporting cast this or bad management that, but should we really expect the Suns to be any more fortunate?

Now, of course, if we go back to 1997, we find Duncan. But even if you expand to the top-5 picks (instead of top-3), you find only one other case, Dwayne Wade at #5 in 2003.

Conclusion: Building a championship team through the lottery is a myth. Almost any other strategy has a better chance of working.

 

[AfroSuns]

That sounds like me lol. I'd take Amare back in a heartbeat if we could send Frye packing hehehe. I don't want Amare for a max deal for that many years. He did what is right for him, time to move on. Yea our defense sucks, Amare won't help that. He may get a few more boards than the rest of this front line but in the end, we aren't winning a championship with him in the forward or center position because defense wins championships unless you can sustain a seriously high offensive output for an entire series. It's hard to do in the playoffs.

I agree we are not championship team with him but we can be if the right pieces are brought to complement him and Nash. I also support not paying him that much if the team is not pursuing a championship again in the Nash era. Projecting his knee would for sure give way in 3 years is a a little presumptuous, we don't really know in this day and age when medicine is advancing rapidly.
If anyone told the Magic Hill will still be playing at this level and over 3 yrs without injury, they will probably laugh at you.
When they traded Amare, they probably should gone to rebuilding mode or go all out to get another good PF to replace him. not halfway getting a bunch of SF, quantity dont mean quality. Talk about a ******** adoption of penny wise pound foolish ideology.

 

[Superbone]

Conclusion: Building a championship team through the lottery is a myth. Almost any other strategy has a better chance of working.

Nice post. So it seems that trades and free agents is the way to go?

It got us the closest. Gar Heard, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash.

 

[jagu]

I agree we are not championship team with him but we can be if the right pieces are brought to complement him and Nash. I also support not paying him that much if the team is not pursuing a championship again in the Nash era. Projecting his knee would for sure give way in 3 years is a a little presumptuous, we don't really know in this day and age when medicine is advancing rapidly.
If anyone told the Magic Hill will still be playing at this level and over 3 yrs without injury, they will probably laugh at you.
When they traded Amare, they probably should gone to rebuilding mode or go all out to get another good PF to replace him. not halfway getting a bunch of SF, quantity dont mean quality. Talk about a ******** adoption of penny wise pound foolish ideology.

Yea, I think the crew of SF's that came in screwed us over for this season as well. I wonder if the Suns should look to dump these guys for salary relief post-lockout.

 

[jagu]

People toss that phrase around as if it means something. Defense loses championships is much more accurate. In the end, outscoring your opponents is the only thing that matters. It's a lot easier, especially in the postseason, to outscore your opponent if you can play decent defense but it's just one facet of a winning team.

Really bad defensive teams do not win championships. Really bad offensive teams do not win championships. We're a decent offensive team and a bad defensive team and we're not going to win anything. Adding Amare to our current squad would make us a very good offensive team and a slightly below average defensive team and that's probably not going to win anything either. BUT, we'd be a lot more fun to watch.

Steve

Other than the defensive woes of the Suns, they are still pretty fun to watch.

 

[BC867]

Other than the defensive woes of the Suns, they are still pretty fun to watch.

If the Suns were a football team, they'd be fun to watch when the offense was on the field. Hopefully, it would be a decent unit on the field the other half of the game.

The fun of watching the Suns on the court half of each segment (offense) is offset by their league-dragging performances the rest of time on defense . . . and especially when defensive rebounds turn into one offensive rebound after another for the opposition.

That just ain't fun!

 

[Michael]

Yes, but Kevin Love plays for the T-Wolves and Blake Griffin plays for the Clippers, both in the Western Conference. Amare won it for the Eastern Conference. Funny thing is, Russell Westbrook won it for the West.

Ah sure. For whatever reason I pictures Love to play for the Kings and thought that two big man had monster games against the Knicks over the last week.

 

[BirdMan21]

If the Suns were a football team, they'd be fun to watch when the offense was on the field. Hopefully, it would be a decent unit on the field the other half of the game.

The fun of watching the Suns on the court half of each segment (offense) is offset by their league-dragging performances the rest of time on defense . . . and especially when defensive rebounds turn into one offensive rebound after another for the opposition.

That just ain't fun!

They would be the San Diego Chargers. Amazing offensive team, put up huge win totals in the regular season, might win a game/series or two in the playoffs.....but can't win a title for anything.

 

[cly2tw]

I agree we are not championship team with him but we can be if the right pieces are brought to complement him and Nash. I also support not paying him that much if the team is not pursuing a championship again in the Nash era. Projecting his knee would for sure give way in 3 years is a a little presumptuous, we don't really know in this day and age when medicine is advancing rapidly.
If anyone told the Magic Hill will still be playing at this level and over 3 yrs without injury, they will probably laugh at you.
When they traded Amare, they probably should gone to rebuilding mode or go all out to get another good PF to replace him. not halfway getting a bunch of SF, quantity dont mean quality. Talk about a ******** adoption of penny wise pound foolish ideology.

I disagree. Suppose we have Amare for the contract of Knicks. We let Frye and Lou go. Get Childress and a good C/F or two for LB's contract + MLE. We'd be better than last year and as good of a contender as anybody in the league but Lakers.

Gentry had the team with Amare and JRich on the same page with Nash and Hill, while Lopez/Dragic/Dudley formed an excellent bench unit. If you watched NYK at times, you'd notice that Amare has been improving his defense along the line Gentry got him into: His rotation and boxing out has been better, though not the best yet. And he has shown to be a willing passer. So, we'd be at least contenders for 2 more seasons as long as Gentry manages Nash's minutes wisely. In a stretch of 3-4 games before the injury, Nash played like a MVP candidate. We just needed to reserve his energy for the playoffs, say by resting him 10-15 games before playoffs or so.

Other than that, yeah, giving up Amare meant rebuilding. Other signings we've made just don't make basketball or business sense at all.

 

[Trifecta]

We let Frye and Lou go. Get Childress and a good C/F or two for LB's contract + MLE. We'd be better than last year and as good of a contender as anybody in the league but Lakers.

It's that easy? You realise bigs like Darko Milicic, Drew Gooden and Amir Johnson were getting MLE contracts last offseason right? And I doubt Barbosa would fetch anything better either. I don't see how having any of them as our starting C would help much.

 

[cly2tw]

It's that easy? You realise bigs like Darko Milicic, Drew Gooden and Amir Johnson were getting MLE contracts last offseason right? And I doubt Barbosa would fetch anything better either. I don't see how having any of them as our starting C would help much.

Even just status quo without Frye of last year's team would be a contender, considering Amare was rehabbing half of the season and Nash was already totally worn down by the time of playoffs. Yet, we still managed to go 6 games with evtl champion the Lakers in WCF. Get a Dampier for the vet. min. Trade Clark/LB for Garcia/Thompson or something. These kind of deals are a lot easy to do than finding a dominant 4.

Here is the Amare block on Jackson, the "Suns are easy to get triple-double against" guy, that saved the game for Knicks last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM62oypMzIA

 

[cly2tw]

Here is a recent remark by Amare how he appreciates Gentry's trying to make him a better defensive player last season.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/taking_lead_kslem4jis3EuU0yn8NB1bJ?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

 

[Errntknght]

An ill timed thread on this board since our team is falling apart more than the Knicks now. Gentry is getting completely away from what powered the Suns down the stretch last year - the second unit no longer exists as an entity and our bench is not contributing much at all as a result. Its even worse than I feared it might be with Nash's minutes skyrocketing of late. It's very reminiscent of the late part of the season a couple of years ago when Gentry abandoned the bench and our opponents ran past us in the fourth quarters, game after game.

Its painful to watch, especially since he's doing nothing about developing any of our young bigs. Its ridiculous playing with one legitimate big getting any minutes at all - pardon me for calling Frye a legit big. None of Clark, Siler or Lawal might ever achieve that status but it's far more likely one of them will than whoever he's sticking out there on the floor in those slots now. And this is just the reg. season where its a whole lot easier to get away with playing undersized than in the playoffs. Nauseating coaching...

 

[BC867]

Its painful to watch, especially since he's doing nothing about developing any of our young bigs.

I wonder if Alvin Gentry is trying to save face for our Front Office's huge contracts to a size-unbalanced team on his own or if he is being instructed to by the here-today-gone-tomorrow FO.

He spoke out yesterday about the team-leading minutes that the two ol' guys -- Nash and Hill -- got in the Bulls game (compared to the rest), but he is the one who decides who gets playing time . . . or is he?

I have a feeling Alvin Gentry is a puppet to an irrational management team and is probably churning up inside.

 

[Chaplin]

Its painful to watch, especially since he's doing nothing about developing any of our young bigs. Its ridiculous playing with one legitimate big getting any minutes at all - pardon me for calling Frye a legit big. None of Clark, Siler or Lawal might ever achieve that status but it's far more likely one of them will than whoever he's sticking out there on the floor in those slots now. And this is just the reg. season where its a whole lot easier to get away with playing undersized than in the playoffs. Nauseating coaching...

Which young bigs are you referring to? The one who he DID give a chance to develop but is now injured, or the one center who's lucky to even be in the NBA?

I don't like the way Gentry is coaching this season and he's made many mistakes, but not playing Siler is NOT one of them.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't like the way Gentry is coaching this season and he's made many mistakes, but not playing Siler is NOT one of them.

Yeah, 33 minutes of PT is plenty of opportunity for a guy to get comfortable in his role... what was I thinking.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah, 33 minutes of PT is plenty of opportunity for a guy to get comfortable in his role... what was I thinking.

There is no "role" for Siler. I know you have an obsession with big men, but you just can't put ANYBODY there. Sorry to say, there is some talent and athleticism needed for the position. Sucks, I know.

 

[jbeecham]

Anyone know what's going on with Anthony Randolph on the Knicks? He only played 2 minutes in the last 5 games and is only averaging 11 minutes in the 8 games he has played... has he been injured or is he just in the D'Antoni doghouse? I though he looked like a pretty good prospect with GS... wonder if he's available... the only problem is that they've already got 2 decent SFs in Gallinari & Wilson Chandler.

 

[Chaplin]

Anyone know what's going on with Anthony Randolph on the Knicks? He only played 2 minutes in the last 5 games and is only averaging 11 minutes in the 8 games he has played... has he been injured or is he just in the D'Antoni doghouse? I though he looked like a pretty good prospect with GS... wonder if he's available... the only problem is that they've already got 2 decent SFs in Gallinari & Wilson Chandler.

I think he's been injured, but not sure.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

An ill timed thread on this board since our team is falling apart more than the Knicks now. Gentry is getting completely away from what powered the Suns down the stretch last year - the second unit no longer exists as an entity and our bench is not contributing much at all as a result. Its even worse than I feared it might be with Nash's minutes skyrocketing of late. It's very reminiscent of the late part of the season a couple of years ago when Gentry abandoned the bench and our opponents ran past us in the fourth quarters, game after game.

Its painful to watch, especially since he's doing nothing about developing any of our young bigs. Its ridiculous playing with one legitimate big getting any minutes at all - pardon me for calling Frye a legit big. None of Clark, Siler or Lawal might ever achieve that status but it's far more likely one of them will than whoever he's sticking out there on the floor in those slots now. And this is just the reg. season where its a whole lot easier to get away with playing undersized than in the playoffs. Nauseating coaching...

Ahh perspective is a funny thing. I just looked at the schedule this upcoming month. Expect the Suns to have "righted the ship" and be in the Top 5 in the West at the end of December. And then everyone will be singing the same old plaudits and really not much will have changed.

Our biggest problem has been a) completely new team playing and getting adjusted b) rough and tumble schedule to begin.

Same ol story time and time again. We will win 50+ games and lose in the second round. The only difference is that its Nov 27th.

And for anyone still wondering, Steve Nash is an absolute god. Does this guy make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S--- better then anyone else or what?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

The Suns won't win a championship for at least the next ten years, which will be after Stoudemire has retired, so that's not a useful yardstick. I think a lot of this board is in denial about how far the Suns are from being relevant again. It's not enough to say "blow it up and rebuild"; it takes time even to acquire the assets to rebuild.

Getting a top-3 pick, for example, hardly helps. Let's look at the last 12 years of those picks:

1999: Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles
2000: Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis
2001: Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol
2002: Yao Ming, Jay Williams, Mike Dunleavy
2003: LeBron James, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony
2004: Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon
2005: Andrew Bogut, Marvin Williams, Deron Williams
2006: Andrea Bargnani, LaMarcus Aldridge, Adam Morrison
2007: Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Al Horford
2008: Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, O. J. Mayo
2009: Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, James Harden
2010: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors

Of the 36 players on that list, only three -- three! -- have won titles: Gasol, Milicic, and Morrison. Milicic and Morrison were bench-warmers, so they don't count. That means it's really just Gasol, and of course even he would be nowhere had he not been gifted to the Lakers.

The other 33 have a few deep playoff runs between them, but that's it. And furthermore, none of the teams who drafted any of those players -- not a single one -- has won a title since making that pick, whether or not the player is still on the team. (Edit: Oops, Detroit won after taking Milicic. That's one.) And in almost every instance where the player has left the team since being drafted, the team is no better off than they were when the player was there.

Some of them may still get their chance, of course. But the point is, having a high lottery pick has, at least for the last twelve years, been terrible at getting a team to championship-caliber. You can make a bunch of excuses about supporting cast this or bad management that, but should we really expect the Suns to be any more fortunate?

Now, of course, if we go back to 1997, we find Duncan. But even if you expand to the top-5 picks (instead of top-3), you find only one other case, Dwayne Wade at #5 in 2003.

Conclusion: Building a championship team through the lottery is a myth. Almost any other strategy has a better chance of working.

Great post

 

[sunsfan88]

Ahh perspective is a funny thing. I just looked at the schedule this upcoming month. Expect the Suns to have "righted the ship" and be in the Top 5 in the West at the end of December. And then everyone will be singing the same old plaudits and really not much will have changed.

Our biggest problem has been a) completely new team playing and getting adjusted b) rough and tumble schedule to begin.

Same ol story time and time again. We will win 50+ games and lose in the second round. The only difference is that its Nov 27th.

And for anyone still wondering, Steve Nash is an absolute god. Does this guy make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S--- better then anyone else or what?

No our biggest problem is that we have no big men on our team. Warrick has the body of a SF and Frye is a wanna-be SG.

They need to trade for a PF or C.

 

[Ronin]

Knicks lost today.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

No our biggest problem is that we have no big men on our team. Warrick has the body of a SF and Frye is a wanna-be SG.

They need to trade for a PF or C.

We havent had one since we lost the coin flip for Kareem. Anyone want to take me up on the Top 5 bet?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Knicks lost today.

Yeah and got booed off the floor. Plus Amare spilled his Protein Shake on his shoes

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=5856346