knicks/heat

[95pro]

poopy calls against the knicks so far in game 1.
lebron benefiting for the most part.

bull crap up in the nba.

 

[slinslin]

refs do not cause a 33 point blowout

 

[AzStevenCal]

refs do not cause a 33 point blowout

I didn't watch the game so I have no opinion about this matchup but sure they do. As a matter of fact, I think refs are more likely to cause a blowout than they are to decide a close game. Calling a questionable foul or two on a key player early in the game can have a dramatic impact on the rest of the game. Establishing the style of officiating early can also result in an blowout. If you have a finesse team playing a physical team and the refs start calling a lot of fouls or go the other way and allow a lot of contact and the game will often turn into a blowout.

Steve

 

[95pro]

refs do not cause a 33 point blowout

Who said they did??

 

[O]

Who cares?

 

[cly2tw]

Knicks lost because Woodson knows only one way to play offense, force-feeding Melo.

 

[dodie53]

heat is the better team. period.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Knicks were totally outclassed. They can blame a couple calls if they want but the vast majority of those offensive fouls were on the Knicks playing like morons and the Heat crashing the paint because the Knicks O is so predictable. The only way the Knicks dont get swept is if they get some white hot shooting nights out of Novak and JR Smith.

And Amare just looks sad out there. The Knicks are a MUCH better team without him. Their offensive spacing with Amare on the court is horrid (but thats not all on him) and his defense is as bad as ever.

 

[Proteus]

A bit off topic but wow...a 27 point comeback by the Clippers tonight.

 

[95pro]

Hey I'm not saying the Knicks were screwed. I made this thread before things got way out of control for the Knicks.
It's just sad when it's obvious some of these guys get special treatment, that's all I'm saying.

 

[95pro]

ouch, b davis went down with a knee injury and is done. tough guy to be smiling while being carted off.

 

[JCSunsfan]

All that money, free agents, max signings, and all they have to show for it is a first round sweep

oops, scratch that, one win in the first round.

The Knicks have pieces but those pieces got them no closer, really, than the Suns.

 

[TJ]

Wow. Had Wade not swallowed the ball for the last 10 seconds, the Heat could have won the game. I honestly think Spoelstra has no clue how to set up last second plays. Goes back to last season. Tyson Chandler is out, meaning the lane is virtually open for penetration. Bad possession.


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[95pro]

Wow. Had Wade not swallowed the ball for the last 10 seconds, the Heat could have won the game. I honestly think Spoelstra has no clue how to set up last second plays. Goes back to last season. Tyson Chandler is out, meaning the lane is virtually open for penetration. Bad possession.


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wouldn't even have come to that if melo didn't choke on the 3 free throws, went 1 of 3

 

[95pro]

the knicks play much better when the offense is ran through amare. its just that guards suck, no shooters penetration and passing from them.

 

[Suns_fan69]

the knicks play much better when the offense is ran through amare. its just that guards suck, no shooters penetration and passing from them.

No kidding; the best passes Amare received were from Tyson Chandler in yesterday's game.

 

[JustWinBaby]

No kidding; the best passes Amare received were from Tyson Chandler in yesterday's game.

Don't you know Amare looks done?

He also never plays defense.

I guess Wade decided to not got in for the lay up because he wanted to shoot an off balance three pointer to win it at the buzzer. He thougt it would have been far too easy to score on Amare. Not good for his reputation.

For a guy that can't see, has a bad back, bad knees and a bad hand Amare did pretty good on Sunday.

Imagine if he ever gets healthy and the Knicks figure out how to share the ball. His athleticism actually stills looks pretty good to me.

 

[Phrazbit]

... the guy needs to be given the ball 2 feet from the hoop with no defender in front of him to score. Hard to run your offense through a guy who has absolutely no hope of creating his own shot. Their offense was ran through Carmelo yesterday, and Carmelo was drawing so much attention on perimeter screens that virtually all of Amare's points came on wide open dunks.

And yes, Amare is still comically bad on defense, if you think Amare is anything but horrific on defense then there is no point in discussing his "talents". By every measure he is among the worst defenders in the NBA.

 

[JustWinBaby]

... the guy needs to be given the ball 2 feet from the hoop with no defender in front of him to score. Hard to run your offense through a guy who has absolutely no hope of creating his own shot. Their offense was ran through Carmelo yesterday, and Carmelo was drawing so much attention on perimeter screens that virtually all of Amare's points came on wide open dunks.

And yes, Amare is still comically bad on defense, if you think Amare is anything but horrific on defense then there is no point in discussing his "talents". By every measure he is among the worst defenders in the NBA.

There really is no point discussing Amare with you. You only see what you want to see.

Maybe if Carmelo would have allowed Amare to get involved prior to game four they would have won a couple more games and Amare would not have punched the fire extinguisher.

We are sooooooooo much better since he is gone. I am so glad your are happy with our current product without him on the roster. We are so much closer to a Championship without his lousy defense on this team.

 

[Phrazbit]

There really is no point discussing Amare with you. You only see what you want to see.

Maybe if Carmelo would have allowed Amare to get involved prior to game four they would have won a couple more games and Amare would not have punched the fire extinguisher.

We are sooooooooo much better since he is gone. I am so glad your are happy with our current product without him on the roster. We are so much closer to a Championship without his lousy defense on this team.

If you honestly think Amare is not only worth his joke of a contract AND that with Amare as our top player we would be anything but lotto trash then I dont know what to say. A "superstar" who cant create his own shot, is among the worst defenders in the league and stinks on the glass. And they are only 2 years deep in his disastrous reign and his decline has only begun.

That you honeslty would want to have him right now when his contract is unanimously agreed to be the worst in the NBA then you shouldnt accuse anyone of "only seeing what they want to see".

Seriously... you show up after the once in every 10 games when Amare is not a complete disaster, point to that one game as evidence of his worth, ignore the rest... and then claim I "only see what I want to." Well, I see the guy suck 9 out of 10 games, and then in the 10th game he doesnt exactly blow anyones doors off when he puts up numbers that he should AVERAGE, not be his high water mark.

I am sure we will bring up this debate 20 games deep into next season after Amare has his first decent showing and you will point to his 21 point 10 rebound game and say the other 19 games of 16 and 6 on 45% shooting were all flukes.

 

[Budden]

If you honestly think Amare is not only worth his joke of a contract AND that with Amare as our top player we would be anything but lotto trash then I dont know what to say. A "superstar" who cant create his own shot, is among the worst defenders in the league and stinks on the glass. And they are only 2 years deep in his disastrous reign and his decline has only begun.

That you honeslty would want to have him right now when his contract is unanimously agreed to be the worst in the NBA then you shouldnt accuse anyone of "only seeing what they want to see".

Seriously... you show up after the once in every 10 games when Amare is not a complete disaster, point to that one game as evidence of his worth, ignore the rest... and then claim I "only see what I want to." Well, I see the guy suck 9 out of 10 games, and then in the 10th game he doesnt exactly blow anyones doors off when he puts up numbers that he should AVERAGE, not be his high water mark.

I am sure we will bring up this debate 20 games deep into next season after Amare has his first decent showing and you will point to his 21 point 10 rebound game and say the other 19 games of 16 and 6 on 45% shooting were all flukes.

Amar'e created his own shots plenty when he was here and the first half of the season he was in New York. He was became a great player again after recovering from his knee and eye surgeries - and in fact, without Nash spoon feeding him the ball right at the basket whenever he wanted, Amar'e was able to improve his game as a little bit of a "playmaker" in New York.

The current question is whether or not Amar'e Stoudemire has become Penny Hardaway faster than Penny became Penny (which was pretty fast). Did Amar'e go from being an elite NBA player to being a bench player in 7 months? That is the current argument. I happen to believe that Amar'e wasn't in shape when the season started, because he had to go without playing basketball for the longest time in his NBA career (including microfracture/re-attachment of retina surgery), he also tried to gain muscle around his lower half and midsection to inoculate himself from re-injury, and every time he started to get back to his former self, something derailed his progress. He was looking pretty good before his brother died. The Knicks showed glimpses of offensive cohesion before D'Antoni was fired. He was getting back into the groove before he hurt his back. And in a season that featured new faces at virtually every important position every 3 weeks, he became more and more marginalized as Carmello Anthony took over more and more of the team's offense. Then he got in a fight with a fire extinguisher and unfortunately came out on the losing end (I'm being sarcastic about that one. That was dumb, but not as dumb as we once thought right after David Aldridge reported it, because he didn't punch it, he just hit it with his palm and had no intention of breaking anything).

The question is relatively simple: Did Amar'e go from being one of the most dominant scorers in New York Knicks history (his record of consecutive 30pt scoring games puts him into that category) to being a stiff in one unusually long off-season? If you can't agree on that part, there's no reason to move on to other peripheral issues.

 

[Phrazbit]

Amar'e created his own shots plenty when he was here and the first half of the season he was in New York. He was became a great player again after recovering from his knee and eye surgeries - and in fact, without Nash spoon feeding him the ball right at the basket whenever he wanted, Amar'e was able to improve his game as a little bit of a "playmaker" in New York.

The current question is whether or not Amar'e Stoudemire has become Penny Hardaway faster than Penny became Penny (which was pretty fast). Did Amar'e go from being an elite NBA player to being a bench player in 7 months? That is the current argument. I happen to believe that Amar'e wasn't in shape when the season started, because he had to go without playing basketball for the longest time in his NBA career (including microfracture/re-attachment of retina surgery), he also tried to gain muscle around his lower half and midsection to inoculate himself from re-injury, and every time he started to get back to his former self, something derailed his progress. He was looking pretty good before his brother died. The Knicks showed glimpses of offensive cohesion before D'Antoni was fired. He was getting back into the groove before he hurt his back. And in a season that featured new faces at virtually every important position every 3 weeks, he became more and more marginalized as Carmello Anthony took over more and more of the team's offense. Then he got in a fight with a fire extinguisher and unfortunately came out on the losing end (I'm being sarcastic about that one. That was dumb, but not as dumb as we once thought right after David Aldridge reported it, because he didn't punch it, he just hit it with his palm and had no intention of breaking anything).

The question is relatively simple: Did Amar'e go from being one of the most dominant scorers in New York Knicks history (his record of consecutive 30pt scoring games puts him into that category) to being a stiff in one unusually long off-season? If you can't agree on that part, there's no reason to move on to other peripheral issues.

I will make it simple. Amare was a scorer who stunk at all other aspects. He relied on his athleticism to score. His athleticism has declined dramatically, as it does for all players and especially guys with an injury history like his. His decline has made his defense and rebounding (which were already weaknesses) even worse and deprived him of a large portion of his ability to attack on a consistent basis on offense.

The Knicks and Amare's remaining fan boys are basically the only ones surprised by this development. This is a path that almost EVERY big man goes down but MOST big men are more fundamentally talented than Amare so they can make up for their loss of youth with guile. Amare has NEVER been a fundamentally sound, he does not have a low post game, a defensive game or anything to fall back on.

Not only do I not find his regression from the last 12 months surprising, I expect it to only get worse. This year was his worst season since his micro-fracture surgery, and next season will be worst still. And you can bet the Knicks will desperately shop him for the next 2 years and unless someone with an equally bad contract has their career fall apart, they will find no buyers.

 

[cly2tw]

The Knicks played two good offensive games in this series, Game 2 and 4. The reason for that is they involved Amare into the offense. In game 4, Melo actually tried to play point forward he didn't want to do for MDA, with teammates moving and cutting on his normally cleared-out path to basket.
In both games, Amare got a couple of chances to play one-on-one and scored and put a lot of pressure on Heat's defense this way. Also, he shows again that he is the game's best pass-catching big man. While Tyson Chandler finished well on PnRs in regular season, he is not getting the same easy path to dunk with Heat's defense to do anything with the pass or even get the pass.

 

[95pro]

The Knicks played two good offensive games in this series, Game 2 and 4. The reason for that is they involved Amare into the offense. In game 4, Melo actually tried to play point forward he didn't want to do for MDA, with teammates moving and cutting on his normally cleared-out path to basket.
In both games, Amare got a couple of chances to play one-on-one and scored and put a lot of pressure on Heat's defense this way. Also, he shows again that he is the game's best pass-catching big man. While Tyson Chandler finished well on PnRs in regular season, he is not getting the same easy path to dunk with Heat's defense to do anything with the pass or even get the pass.

agreed on that. when they made room for him to operate near the rim, the knicks offense flowed better. he may not have the athleticism he used to have, but he has a little fade that he hits. his touch is still good and gets some friendly rolls. his first step is still quick enough to get some points on the opposing teams bigs. he just needs the ball a bit more.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I will make it simple. Amare was a scorer who stunk at all other aspects. He relied on his athleticism to score. His athleticism has declined dramatically, as it does for all players and especially guys with an injury history like his. His decline has made his defense and rebounding (which were already weaknesses) even worse and deprived him of a large portion of his ability to attack on a consistent basis on offense.

The Knicks and Amare's remaining fan boys are basically the only ones surprised by this development. This is a path that almost EVERY big man goes down but MOST big men are more fundamentally talented than Amare so they can make up for their loss of youth with guile. Amare has NEVER been a fundamentally sound, he does not have a low post game, a defensive game or anything to fall back on.

Not only do I not find his regression from the last 12 months surprising, I expect it to only get worse. This year was his worst season since his micro-fracture surgery, and next season will be worst still. And you can bet the Knicks will desperately shop him for the next 2 years and unless someone with an equally bad contract has their career fall apart, they will find no buyers.

You make it out like he was a horrible rebounder and the facts just don't support you. With his athleticism he should have been one of the elite rebounders in the game and he wasn't, but, he was still a decent rebounder.

Steve