Knowing what you know now....

[mojorizen7]

Looking back the only thing i would have done differently was move Nash/Bell/Barbosa soon after D'Antoni left. I'm too lazy to look it up but i'm sure i have a few posts over the summer to back this up. The SUNS moved the system out of town but the fallout remains in the form of DA's boys. The losing & chemistry issues started the moment Nash/Bell's bitching about playing too slow started...and it seems that Porter has fallen for it.
Turnovers & execution have been a problem all year(all 20 games) & that falls squarely on the coach IMO but in order to move on, their gonna have to overhaul the backcourt.

 

[mojorizen7]

This would only qualify as an I told you so thread if your premise is that the team would be better off but still without a championship. It's a pretty empty I told you so if the premise is that we would have a few more wins, get bounced form the playoffs in the 1st round and not make any progress from the last 2 years.

Honestly...memories seem to be short here. This team has progressively gotten worse under D'Antoni the last 2 seasons. We have 3 starters who are getting older each season and whose numbers are declining.

If a title is our end game....we 100% would not be better off with D'Antoni this year. However, if playing more exciting basketball, getting bounced from the playoffs and again going home without a title is the crux of your "I told you so".....let me be the first to say congratulations.

Well said Steel. I probably would've sounded bitter trying to explain that. Nice job

 

[cly2tw]

DA is a SURE thing I can't live with as a Suns fan. Porter or any other new coach is at least hope.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mike D'Antoni was an immensely successful coach with the Suns. The record speaks for itself. There is no spinning around that.

so, was Paul Westphaul a good coach? His record speaks for itself and there's no spinning around that, huh?

D'Antoni brought the Suns seemingly easy success which made some fans think the players were better than the coaching. Well it turns D'Antoni maximized the players talents.

he maximized SOME players talents - Nash, Barbosa and Diaw but he did nothing but stunt Marion's growth (he was a 20 and 10 guy before DA and once DA got here he NEVER had to continue growing his game because all he had to do was sit in a corner and shoot threes or run), he had nothing to do with maximizing JJ (who's an All-Star) and Amare had already won rookie of the year and improved by leaps and bounds in his second year.

While it's true his system made Nash special, he didn't maximize Amare, Marion's or JJ talent. All those guys produced with and without him.

Well the naysayers got what they wanted and now D'Antoni got pushed out of town.

this is such BS and black and white garbage. "Naysayers" wanted DA gone, because they wanted BETTER than DA. We got worse (and some of the naysayers thought so at the time. Stop making this out to be a black and white issue. I know it's easier to make people look stupid when you paint them in extremes but it really devalues the level of conversation and healthy debate.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Looking back the only thing i would have done differently was move Nash/Bell/Barbosa soon after D'Antoni left. I'm too lazy to look it up but i'm sure i have a few posts over the summer to back this up. The SUNS moved the system out of town but the fallout remains in the form of DA's boys. The losing & chemistry issues started the moment Nash/Bell's bitching about playing too slow started...and it seems that Porter has fallen for it.

we got our asses the kicked in the 2nd game of the season and then played a cup-cake schedule until we played 4 of 5 straight tough games and got the crap beat out of us again in 3 of those. that's when the chemistry issues started... because it was apparent that against anyone with a pulse, we were dogmeat. And it's continued not because of "chemistry issues" (what's been said lately isn't much different than what's been said all year), the losses have continued because the schedule has continued to be tougher.

 

[mojorizen7]

we got our asses the kicked in the 2nd game of the season and then played a cup-cake schedule until we played 4 of 5 straight tough games and got the crap beat out of us again in 3 of those. that's when the chemistry issues started... because it was apparent that against anyone with a pulse, we were dogmeat. And it's continued not because of "chemistry issues" (what's been said lately isn't much different than what's been said all year), the losses have continued because the schedule has continued to be tougher.

True, chemistry has been an issue all year but the effort & intensity has dropped off big time since DA's cronies started complaining despite the opposition.

 

[Mainstreet]

This would only qualify as an I told you so thread if your premise is that the team would be better off but still without a championship. It's a pretty empty I told you so if the premise is that we would have a few more wins, get bounced form the playoffs in the 1st round and not make any progress from the last 2 years.

Honestly...memories seem to be short here. This team has progressively gotten worse under D'Antoni the last 2 seasons. We have 3 starters who are getting older each season and whose numbers are declining.

If a title is our end game....we 100% would not be better off with D'Antoni this year. However, if playing more exciting basketball, getting bounced from the playoffs and again going home without a title is the crux of your "I told you so".....let me be the first to say congratulations.

So you think the Suns are closer to a Championship now?

My memory is not short. Remember how D'Antoni turned the Suns from a losing team into a winner after only a partial season with the Suns? Now look at D'Antoni's success over the previous four seasons. I think D'Antoni spoiled the fans with his success.

I think if you want to win a Championship you have to make it to the playoffs first.

 

[Forrestham]

DA made the team better than it was before he got there. We did have exciting basketball but got bounced out in the end. With the way the Suns are going its easy to see DA strong points and how his system could beat the bad teams but they could not beat teams that played straight up fundamental basketball. Since he was unwilling to coach defense or make adjustments it was time for hime to go. Now that he is in NY, both him and Kerr probably wish they would have made adjustment and make it work but DA was too stubborn.

As far as Porter I think it was a situation where it appeared he was the right guy. I was excited with his hiring but it just has not worked out. if this goes on another 3-4 games, do we give th job to Gentry or look at Van Gundy, Avery Johnson or Flip Saunders? All are being paid by previosu employers. I think the players like Gentry and he was kept on after the coaching change

 

[Mainstreet]

As far as Porter I think it was a situation where it appeared he was the right guy. I was excited with his hiring but it just has not worked out. if this goes on another 3-4 games, do we give th job to Gentry or look at Van Gundy, Avery Johnson or Flip Saunders? All are being paid by previosu employers. I think the players like Gentry and he was kept on after the coaching change

I think giving Gentry a shot is a reasonable idea. However, I really wish the Suns would have considered Eddie Johnson. Although I'm not sure if he can coach, I think he has very good grasp of the game and the players. I think Eddie would coach much like DA but I guess that is a bad thing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True, chemistry has been an issue all year but the effort & intensity has dropped off big time since DA's cronies started complaining despite the opposition.

again, they were "effortless" in the 2nd game of the season. It's not effortless. They're just not very good and it shows whenever they play someone who is. If you saw ANY intensity in that 2nd game of the season, or against the Bulls or against the Rockets (all of this before the "cronies started complaining") then we were watching different teams.

 

[mojorizen7]

again, they were "effortless" in the 2nd game of the season. It's not effortless. They're just not very good and it shows whenever they play someone who is. If you saw ANY intensity in that 2nd game of the season, or against the Bulls or against the Rockets (all of this before the "cronies started complaining") then we were watching different teams.

Fair enough,i missed the 2nd game of the season. I did see the ROCKETS game & many others....probably 12 out of 20 i'd guess & I maintain that the intensity has taken a nose dive in the last 5 or 6 games. The way that the defense(or lack thereof) has looked alot like DA's teams all of a sudden is not coincidence IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

So you think the Suns are closer to a Championship now?

Where did I say that exactly?

My memory is not short. Remember how D'Antoni turned the Suns from a losing team into a winner after only a partial season with the Suns? Now look at D'Antoni's success over the previous four seasons. I think D'Antoni spoiled the fans with his success.

I think if you want to win a Championship you have to make it to the playoffs first.

Remember how things got stale? Remember how teams starting dismantling D'Antoni's offense in the playoffs? Remember how we had to outscore teams because we couldn't defend the paint? Remember how D'Antoni started to get a bad rep around the league for not playing his bench?

By the way, I consider what Phil Jackson did in Chicago spoiling the fans. I consider what Phil did with the Lakers spoiling the fans. I consider what POP has done in San Antonio...spoiling the fans. I consider what D'Antoni did was the ultimate tease. He made this team the most entertaining in basketball. If that was the ultimate measuring stick then he was great. However, it's not the ultimate measuring stick. Titles are. Again, love that he made the Suns more exciting but this team has been regressing for 2 seasons and getting further away from a title not closer.

It's true you can't win a title without getting the playoffs. However, getting to the playoffs isn't enough. There are NBA teams who consistently get to the playoffs but never win. Sorry, that's not enough.

 

[Mainstreet]

Where did I say that exactly?

Quote: If a title is our end game....we 100% would not be better off with D'Antoni this year.

Remember how things got stale? Remember how teams starting dismantling D'Antoni's offense in the playoffs? Remember how we had to outscore teams because we couldn't defend the paint? Remember how D'Antoni started to get a bad rep around the league for not playing his bench?

Remember Kerr riding D'Antoni's back the latter half of the season from the GM chair? Remember D'Antoni playing in his fourth straight season in the playoffs in the tough Western Conference? It seems the Suns went to the WCFs twice. Remember how the Suns didn't have the personnel to play defense? Remember that DA didn't have much of a bench to play, especially no backup PG? Remember how exciting the Suns were the past four seasons? Just how did you reach the conclusion DA could not win a Championship in Phoenix after just four highly successful seasons? One just slightly off season with a first round playoff exit does not mean the coach is finished. Are you now happy with the Suns even if they don't make the playoffs? I mean Kerr's vision of how a team should play in theory does not make it a reality.

I just don't see how the Suns could have been any worse by allowing DA to coach the Suns at least until 2010. At least I wouldn't have to watch boring and losing basketball in the interim.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Where did I say that exactly?



Remember how things got stale? Remember how teams starting dismantling D'Antoni's offense in the playoffs? Remember how we had to outscore teams because we couldn't defend the paint? Remember how D'Antoni started to get a bad rep around the league for not playing his bench?

By the way, I consider what Phil Jackson did in Chicago spoiling the fans. I consider what Phil did with the Lakers spoiling the fans. I consider what POP has done in San Antonio...spoiling the fans. I consider what D'Antoni did was the ultimate tease. He made this team the most entertaining in basketball. If that was the ultimate measuring stick then he was great. However, it's not the ultimate measuring stick. Titles are. Again, love that he made the Suns more exciting but this team has been regressing for 2 seasons and getting further away from a title not closer.

It's true you can't win a title without getting the playoffs. However, getting to the playoffs isn't enough. There are NBA teams who consistently get to the playoffs but never win. Sorry, that's not enough.

To quote a wise man:

"Phil Jackson, Gregg Poppovich, and Red Auerbach are not walking through that door"

I think your expectation level maybe a tad bit insane. As nice as it would be to think we are championship or bust every year the reality says something quite different. Unless you have Jordan, Kobe, Bill Russell, or Tim Duncan (aka trancendental players - and even then its no guarantee i.e Doug Collins and Del Harris) all you can ask for is to maximize the players you have and get some breaks along the way.

That's the way its done unless you are one of the three coaches I named above. For gods sake Larry Brown is considered to be one of the better coaches of all time and he has one ring. And that was after his team caught some breaks and after decades + coaching. On the flip side DOC FREAKING RIVERS just won a title. No one is confusing him with Red Auerbach - thats for damn sure.

It's a players league and the best coaches put the players in the best possible position to win.

D'Antoni did that.

No offense suns fans but what kind of delusions are we under here? What title banners are you looking up at that we can demand not just 60 win seasons and conference championship series but multiple championships??

Everyone wants to blame DA and say we were tailing off last year. I don't disagree.

My difference is I would have replaced the nucleus and/or some of the players. Not the coach.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I bet they don't do the daily video montage for the players anymore. that was a staple with the previous regime - they put together a montage of the previous game highlights and showed it to the players to get them pumped up.

how could they even do this any longer? there ARE NO "previous game highlights" to use . . . i guess they could montage the last 4 years or something . . . ?

 

[dodie53]

imo,
Mike was already on the way out when the suns got shaq

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Phil Jackson, Gregg Poppovich, and Red Auerbach are not walking through that door"

look, we were NOT going to win a championship this year, regardless of who coached. what we had learned was with really good talent (for some years many league pundits thought we had the best talent) Dantoni wasn't winning a title. so i was fine getting rid of him.

now did i expect the new coach to be phil, pop, or red? no, i already KNEW that dantoni wasn't gonna be them. so i hoped whomever was picked MIGHT be the next in the line. porter was picked. he seemingly is not next in line. so we're in the same place as we were before, only more boring.

unfortunately this forum is now more entertaining than watching the suns. i can't even watch 'em anymore. and if you ask cheese, that's something to marvel at considering i'll watch friggin' high school football.

 

[az1965]

D'Antoni had to go.

Porter has not shown me anything yet to perfer him.

There should have been other options like "neither" or "other"...

 

[Errntknght]

At this point I have to say that Porter is a worse coach than D'Antoni on the offensive end and not a whole lot better on the defensive end. He stepped into a bad situation for an inexperienced coach - mostly veteran players, assembled for an offbeat system, and high expectations - but, as far as I'm concerned, his lack of knowledge of the game is what is hurting the team the most.

I voted for him over D'Antoni for the same reasons Cheese gave - essentially, its easy to see we need to get rid of Porter and rebuild... with any luck he can take Kerr down with him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I just don't see how the Suns could have been any worse by allowing DA to coach the Suns at least until 2010. At least I wouldn't have to watch boring and losing basketball in the interim.

this strategy would have made us the 2003-probably forever version of the Sacramento Kings. No thanks. When you're time's up, your time's up and the sooner you admit that to yourself, the sooner you can move on the next era. DA would have been able to snow enough people that our time wasn't up with "exciting basketball", a 50 win one and done season and then probably a 45 win season the next year and we would have been stuck in basketball purgatory forever. Not good enough to win a title, not bad enough to get the help we really need in the draft.

Now, that may be fine with you, but after 20 years of watching the Suns it ain't for me. Let them completely rot in hell for a couple years, reap the benefits of doing so (at least this year when we actually have our draft pick) and start the rebuilding process. That's what smart teams do when 4/5 of their starting lineup is over 31 and their two of their "Big 3" are over 35. They don't hang on for more. Like I said, that's a recipe to stay in basketball Purgatory forever.

 

[DeAnna]

Personally, I don't believe that a good defensive coach can turn a bad defensive team into a good one. So far, Porter has done nothing to change my mind. I think D'Antoni realized the limitations of this team and orchestrated a system that tried to capitalize on the team's strengths while hiding their weaknesses. Porter seems to be doing quite the opposite.

Well, YEAH. Why do you think they hired D'Antoni in the first place? He essentially put lipstick on a defensive pig.

 

[Mainstreet]

this strategy would have made us the 2003-probably forever version of the Sacramento Kings. No thanks. When you're time's up, your time's up and the sooner you admit that to yourself, the sooner you can move on the next era. DA would have been able to snow enough people that our time wasn't up with "exciting basketball", a 50 win one and done season and then probably a 45 win season the next year and we would have been stuck in basketball purgatory forever. Not good enough to win a title, not bad enough to get the help we really need in the draft.

Now, that may be fine with you, but after 20 years of watching the Suns it ain't for me. Let them completely rot in hell for a couple years, reap the benefits of doing so (at least this year when we actually have our draft pick) and start the rebuilding process. That's what smart teams do when 4/5 of their starting lineup is over 31 and their two of their "Big 3" are over 35. They don't hang on for more. Like I said, that's a recipe to stay in basketball Purgatory forever.

That's a huge unvalidated assumption. I do not support DA blindly but rather I think it was the GM's job to provide him the players to improve his system. For example, if the Suns got DA Kevin Garnett last season the fans would all be singing his praises. The idea the Suns would get a player out of the lottery that would turn the Suns around is a reach, especially short term. The lottery is too much of a crap shoot to be reliable solution unless you see the Suns as a lottery team long term. But then again, the Suns don't even have their 2010 first round pick.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's a huge unvalidated assumption. I do not support DA blindly but rather I think it was the GM's job to provide him the players to improve his system.

that's the biggest problem though. DA needed ALL-STARS across the board pretty much for his system to work. His system needs the highest skilled offensive players at their respective positions (or at least most of them) in order to ultimately succeed and it was STILL based on offense. That's an impossible task to give to a GM.

For example, if the Suns got DA Kevin Garnett last season the fans would all be singing his praises. The idea the Suns would get a player out of the lottery that would turn the Suns around is a reach, especially short term.

uh, who's talking about "short term". Rebuilding doesn't happen overnight. Look at the Lakers as proof of that. They had to wallow in the mud for 3 years after they were dismantled, but they were able to hit on that one lotto pick while building a little at time each year and then last year exploded, even before the Pau trade. Delaying that so we can see us be the 2004 Kings or 2000/1/2 Jazz serves no purpose except to milk money from the fans.

 

[Mainstreet]

that's the biggest problem though. DA needed ALL-STARS across the board pretty much for his system to work. His system needs the highest skilled offensive players at their respective positions (or at least most of them) in order to ultimately succeed and it was STILL based on offense. That's an impossible task to give to a GM.

Just wow on DA needing All-Stars across the board to make his system work. Yes, DA needed skilled athletic players to implement his system that could shoot. This should have not been a tough job for a GM willing to pay more than the veteran minimum. How about passing on Pargo this season?

uh, who's talking about "short term". Rebuilding doesn't happen overnight. Look at the Lakers as proof of that. They had to wallow in the mud for 3 years after they were dismantled, but they were able to hit on that one lotto pick while building a little at time each year and then last year exploded, even before the Pau trade. Delaying that so we can see us be the 2004 Kings or 2000/1/2 Jazz serves no purpose except to milk money from the fans.

I believe DA could have rebuilt this team on the run employing his system if he received the help of a GM. Kerr getting rid of KT, JR plus two first round draft picks showed how much support he gave DA. I think a lot of fans bought into the faulty premise the Suns were going to be a better team after DA was pushed out... at least concerning the playoffs... now. So do you propose the duo of Kerr and Porter to lead the Suns out of the wilderness? I just do not see Kerr as a modern day Moses so maybe the Suns will have to wander another forty years to get back to where they were.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just wow on DA needing All-Stars across the board to make his system work. Yes, DA needed skilled athletic players to implement his system that could shoot.

those guys don't grow on trees... ESPECIALLY Cs. You're the one who brought up that DA needed Garnett in there. I'm just saying that if you need THREE ALL-NBA FIRST TEAMERS to make your system work, you're system is inherently flawed. ANYONE could win with that kind of talent. Hell, Doc Rivers proved that last year.

This should have not been a tough job for a GM willing to pay more than the veteran minimum. How about passing on Pargo this season?

it was a bad move, like most of our moves this off-season. You seem to think there can only be two camps. The DA camp and the Kerr/Porter camp. I'm in NEITHER. I think DA was a very good coach but ultimately not a championship level coach due to the fact that he couldn't handle pressure, make in game adjustments and allowed layups, valuing offense over defense even in the extreme. I also believe Kerr is a moron of the highest order and that Porter had never accomplished jack squat to be handed the keys to this team.

I believe DA could have rebuilt this team on the run employing his system if he received the help of a GM.

how? I know the DA loyalists want to blame all the first round draft pick trades solely on Sarver but I've just got to ask you if you think it's a complete and utter coincidence that the year DA's gone, we not only use our pick, but also use the second pick and pay first round money for it.

Kerr getting rid of KT, JR plus two first round draft picks showed how much support he gave DA.

Yup, he didn't do him any favors there. That being said, it wasn't Kerr who low-balled TT and then decided to give the keys to the castle to Marcus Banks. It wasn't Kerr who said "we're not in the business of developing talent" which was probably a factor in us selling off draft picks in DA's first couple years (because it's not like they didn't spend money... badly... during those off-seasons). It wasn't Kerr who wanted Grant Hill and then played him to death until his body broke down numerous times.

I think a lot of fans bought into the faulty premise the Suns were going to be a better team after DA was pushed out... at least concerning the playoffs... now.

that's nice. I wasn't one of them. I said after this season the team should have been blown up.

So do you propose the duo of Kerr and Porter to lead the Suns out of the wilderness?

how many times do I have to say this to you before you get it through your head. Kerr is a disaster and Porter was a bad hire. Good god man. You've never been this obtuse on this board. what gives?

I just do not see Kerr as a modern day Moses so maybe the Suns will have to wander another forty years to get back to where they were.

nor do i. I think we're screwed until Sarver sells the team but the sooner we get worse, and I mean AWFUL, the sooner that'll probably happen.

again, it seems like you were content with the more slow-death approach while I just wanted to pull the plug. we were dead either way. the way I look at it is that I just wanted to get through the mourning period immediately so we could move on while you wanted to watch and continue to hope that a terminally ill patient had a miracle recovery.