Kolb Will Be Fine

Russ Smith

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So we gave up a 2nd round pick and DRC to not lose as badly as we are right now? Great deal!

The teams that we're playing this year aren't as good as the ones we played last year. We haven't played a team as good as the Chargers or Falcons were last season. We got blown out by a team that was 0-4 last week! Our luck might have been slightly better last season (missed field goals, Breaston chasing down the St. Louis defender at the goal line), but it's that, not quarterback play, that is the result of the difference in record. We'd be 0-5 right now if the Panthers had decided to let Olindo Mare kick some longish field goals indoors instead of punting from our 38.

One positive from last week is that the defense didn't give up once it was clear that the offense had nothing going on. The D gave up 28 points in the first quarter, and like 6 points the rest of the game. Part of that is Minnesota going into preseason mode the rest of the game, but a larger point is the defense still playing hard.


yes that was precisely my point, I don't want to win I want to just be better than last year.

My problem with your claim about this years opponents is it's too early in the season to know.

After the first week we all thought our secondary was the worst in NFL history over 400 yards to Newton. We thought Carolina was terrible. It turns out Newton is quite good and Carolina is better than anybody thought, their pass defense actually isn't as bad as we all thought, Rodgers, Kolb and Brees have all gone over 300 but 2 of those guys are top 5 NFL QB's. Carolina as a young team is losing close games but they're not as bad as we all thought they were.

Wash is 3-1, Seattle is not great not horrible, the Giants are 3-2.

I'd much rather be 5-0 or 4-1 but the team has been in games until Sun. If the last game is the start of a trend I'll be right there with you but
so far I think we're clearly better than we were last year.
 

kerouac9

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yes that was precisely my point, I don't want to win I want to just be better than last year.

My problem with your claim about this years opponents is it's too early in the season to know.

After the first week we all thought our secondary was the worst in NFL history over 400 yards to Newton. We thought Carolina was terrible. It turns out Newton is quite good and Carolina is better than anybody thought, their pass defense actually isn't as bad as we all thought, Rodgers, Kolb and Brees have all gone over 300 but 2 of those guys are top 5 NFL QB's. Carolina as a young team is losing close games but they're not as bad as we all thought they were.

Wash is 3-1, Seattle is not great not horrible, the Giants are 3-2.

I'd much rather be 5-0 or 4-1 but the team has been in games until Sun. If the last game is the start of a trend I'll be right there with you but
so far I think we're clearly better than we were last year.

I don't know. You can only play who's on your schedule. Because Carolina beat Jacksonville in a monsoon does that make them good? Because Washington's beat New York at home in the season opener as well as St. Louis and us; are they good? The Giants beat us, a 1-4 Philly team, and the Rams; are they good?

I think that the Giants are a good bad team who will be about 8-8, and the Skins might win the NFC East at 9-7. We're five weeks into the season; the wheat has largely separated itself from the chaff. Are we as bad as we looked in Minnesota? I don't think that's going to be par for the course. But things are getting progressively worse in-house, and the offense--lead by Kevin Kolb who we were told was ready to win now--is the problem.

Duckjake said it best: our defense with it's inferior personnel are 16th in scoring. Kolb is the guy we paid a ton for in terms of salary and compensation. He's the weak link on the offense that is 24th in points per game, and it's not the pressure so much as his stupid decisions when it matters most that has kept us from being at least 2-3 and kind of alive in our division.

If Kolb were just holding serve or getting moderately better every week, I think that the outlook would be better. But he's getting demonstrably worse week after week after week. Hard to look at that and say, "Hey, everything's going to be fine."

Reminds me what happened with #7 his rookie year. Three close losses in a row and the bloom went off that rose and he never recovered.
 

Russ Smith

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McCarthy got hired away as the head coach as the Green Bay Packers, but if that's getting fired, then I certainly hope to get fired in that way.

Norv Turner improved Smith's play. I think he had like an 83 rating his season with Norv.

He was bad for years because he was getting yanked in and out of the lineup because he didn't get along with Nolan and no coach afterward had any investment in him to get better.

It's insanity to me that you can say over and over that bad coaching wasn't a problem for Smith, but now that he has good coaching he's somehow a good quarterback. What's changed for Smith, besides getting good coaching?

Is tape of Smith playing in Mike Martz's offense really the difference between Alex Smith in 2010 and Kevin Kolb? Are you for real?!

Yes, good coaches tailor their offenses to their personnel. That's what Harbaugh's doing. That's what Whisenhunt isn't doing. I'm certain that #7 could be just as productive as Smith is right now if we'd run a system that played to his strengths, instead of Whis's system which plays to no one's strengths.

part of the problem is you jump around so much. yes McCarthy wasn't fired, but he also clearly wasn't a bad coach, if he was GB wouldn't have hired him and they wouldn't be the defending SB champs 5-0 this year would they? But you just ignore that part of it and jump on the mistake about fired.

He had a good coach as a rookie and played horribly. He had a good second year coach and played passably. Hostler was supposed to be a happy medium but Smith couldn't do what he wanted and then had the injury.

By my count the guys he had as OC's have a combined 4 Super Bowl wins and I think 5 Superbowl appearances. Man what a horrible group of OC's.

yes changing OC's every season is tough, it's insanity to me that you can keep saying changing OC's hurt Alex Smith and then in the next sentence dismiss anybody saying Kolb is learning a new system as just making excuses. I'm just a bit more polite when I point it out usually.

He was getting yanked for years because he was terrible and his teammates had no confidence in him. You don't go from #1 overall pick to losing your job to Shaun Hill just because of bad coaching, it was quite simple and well documented in the Bay Area, the team believed in Hill so they made the switch. There was debate as to whether Smith was undermined or not, but the team wanted Hill, that was very clear.

Smith is playing quite well right now but he's also being asked to do very little, he averages less than 200 YPC passing. NFL.com doesn't have the detailed splits yet but I would bet he plays with multiple TE's more than most NFL Qb's do, it's a staple of the Harbaugh system because you force teams to play their run package to stop Gore, and then get mismatches with your TE's against their LB's. it's great coaching yes but it's also a way to minimize what they ask Smith to do.

It'll be interesting to see when they get Edwards back if they open it up or not, my guess is they probably won't.

I don't know if you can win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, they have a good defense and great RB and teams have certainly won SB's without good QB's before, but it's tough.

But it's a lot easier to play QB with SF's defense than it is with Arizona's, you don't go into the game thinking I gotta put up a lot of points to win.

I'd still take Kolb over Smith any day of the week, I've seen Smith play too much, at some point they're going to have to ask him to do some things to win some games and we'll see then if he's really improved or not.

A big thing for Smith is he's played so much more than Kolb he's had time to get through the stuff Kolb is going through now. It's not Kolb's fault he didn't play more in Philly and I certainly don't want to wait as long for Kolb as SF had to wait for Smith, but I think 5 games is a bit short to write him off.

Smith spent the lockout leading workouts with the SF offense, Kolb spent the lockout in limbo waiting for a trade to happen, who do you think had the advantage?
 
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DoTheDew

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I think Kolb is an OK QB, but he seems to lack the "it" factor. He doesn't seem to have the ability to will a team to victory the way Warner or any other elite QB does. I think he can be very good in the right system and with a good overall cast around him, but I don't think he'll ever be the type that makes up for the shortcomings of his teammates.

That said, I don't think he's a good fit for the Cardinals because we've never been the type of team to solidify every position at once. We tend to let a lot of good guys walk after their rookie contracts and always have multiple glaring holes. We're going to need a guy like Warner who can make up for a piss-poor OL for example, if we're ever going to get back to the promised land.
 

Russ Smith

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I don't think he's lost his trust in the OL, he was rolling out of the pocket early the first game. I think that's what he has always done, and in Philly, who has a long history of mobile QB's, that wasn't something he was ever broken of.


Go Cards!!!

That's true, almost half his yards passing in the first game were as a result of getting out of the pocket and making a play.

He does tend to want to take off too quickly people were pointing it out in the preseason. But again the reason we saw it in the preseason was the same reason it is now, because there was always pressure there because our OL is so bad.

Kolb is either going to sink or swim at it I don't see the OL getting better so he'll have to learn to stand in there. Lots of QB's go through this in the NFL, some make it out the other end ok, some don't.
 

Russ Smith

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AzStevenCal

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Top 5 QBs so far this season. not week 5. THIS SEASON.

1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. A. Smith
5. Stafford

This isn't coming from me. It's Kurt Warner's list.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d82312a78/Warner-s-top-5-QBs

Think I'll take Warner's word over yours Mr. Russ Smith.

You said that as if you consider Kurt to be infallible. Out of curiosity, what would you be saying if Warner had Smith rated in the low 30's? It's nice to have an opinion and it's nice to have an expert on your side but throwing it out there like that and then coating it with condescension is a crappy way to discuss something.

Steve
 
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Diamondback Jay

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You mean you don't want Derek Anderson back??? Or not on the "Suck For Luck" bandwagon??? :p :mulli:

In all seriousness; let the record show: I was NEVER in favor of Kolb being brought in, certainly not at the price tag or trade chips they gave up to get him.

That being said, it's been FIVE games. Yes, he's been in the NFL a period of time now and yes he's sooner or later got to turn the corner. Yet, this is his first extended period of time as a starter and he's going to go through the growing pains every starter experiences. Compounding issues, he gets very little protection on the offensive line and faces the same "double team Fitzgerald" defensive scheme that the Three Headed Monster faced last year.

I'd like to see how he progresses as the season goes on before throwing him under the bus.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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They're running the TCU offense with the Bengals? Which is the same system Dalton learned in high school?

It's remarkable that Cam Newton didn't have to learn a new system for Carolina, because that certainly looks different from what Auburn ran last year. I'm surprised the Tigers didn't use him more as a pocket passer since they had all those plays in their system.

It's definitely an excuse. BTW, are you still down on Alex Smith? He certainly looks like an inferior player to Kevin Kolb right now. That "Getting better every week" sure highlights all his weaknesses. It's not like having the worst coaching staff in football for his entire career might have shackled his development.
how many PRO offenses have they learned? That's what I'm talking about. They have been in the same consistent, system from day 1, which is easier than forgetting being taught one way and learning another on the go. However, I say it's not an excuse because Kolb should be able to handle it.
And yes, Alex Smith does still stink. It's going to take more than a good game, or two, to change my mind. Especially when one of them was against the worst defense in the NFL, in Philly.
 

Russ Smith

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I'd take Russ Smith's word over Warner's any day of the week and twice on Sundays, but that's just me.

I'm not claiming to know more than Warner I'm just saying the list Warner gave was the Qb's who have played best the first 5 weeks.

Stafford has a history of injuries so many NFL teams would be leery of him. Smith has a history of mediocrity. So if Warner says these are the 5 best Qb's this year only I have no huge issue.

I just think most NFL people would tell you a guy that you have to take things away from to keep him from losing games, isn't a top 5 QB, and that's what Harbaugh has done with Alex Smith.
 

john h

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Kolb Will Be Fine

I am not kidding.

Not much of an off-season. An entirely new team and playbook. Crappy OL and predictable play calling from the sidelines. Three of the first five games on the road.

Kolb's postgame comments in Minnesota point to players not being united and giving their all (off the field).

"It starts with meetings, showing up to work on time, getting in early, getting your work done, and all the stuff a professional is supposed to do. Maybe it takes a game like this to figure that out."

Not sure who he was calling out, but maybe his message will find its intended targets.

All excuses, I know, but we're still only a few points from being 4-1.

The offense needs to be more creative and figure out how to protect Kolb longer or get the ball out quicker.

By the end of the year I predict most people will feel comfortable with Kolb as the QB of the near future.

Don't burn your #4 jerseys just yet.

Just my opinion.

An "optimistic" Dark Sider... :jedi:


I thought as a new guy on the team and one who has not produced himself he would be better off not commenting at all until he proves himself. Some of our real stars who has been through the wars with the Cards may resent criticism what so ever from the new guy on the block. He certainly is not the team leader. Walk lightly Mr. Kolb and keep quiet until you think your comments will help and you have proven yourself. Just like with any new job in business or anywhere else the new guy on the block needs to see how the locker room functions and what the pecking order is before giving advice or saying what is wrong with the team.
 

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How are people blaming this all on the line? Are you even watching games? On the VAST majority of passing plays Kolb is given plenty of time to throw, and he either holds onto the ball far too long or stupidly rolls out to the right and then puts himself into a situation where he has no blockers and is going to get smeared.

I would say at least 80% of the hits he has taken have come because he lacks pocket awareness and leaves the pocket far too often.
 

john h

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Well, if a poor OL is in fact a big contributor and I believe it is. How do we fix that this year?

It is not all offensive line. He fails to stay in the pocket and give the OL a chance protect him. So far he was on the run to the outside by the time the ball was snapped. Our offensive scheme was built around a pocket passer. I read he is running to the outside because that is the way his former team operated. He is nimble but sure no Michael Vick. I just hope it is not a courage factor. He has 11 games to show he can be a future NFL starting QB. We cannot afford to spend two years waiting for him to become something he may never be. If he does not get the job done this year then hope we get a shot at Luck or some other emerging QB. That will be hard to do since we gave up so much for him including money, a very good starter, #2 draft pick and contract length that was to long for an unproven QB. A lot of other players and coaches future rest on his shoulders. He has been in the NFL for 5 years and started only 4-5 games. That is reason enough to worry. How many people thought he was the best QB in FA startled me. He was way over hyped in my mind and it worked. Could one of our present backup QBs have a worse record than 1-4?. I am not so sure one of them might not have won two games rather than one game. I think Peterson will work out in the long run but he has not performed like a #5 pick so far. Our #2 pick is injured and will not play this year. A couple of lineman seem to be emerging as real keepers. Just hope we keep them.

Newton to my surprise is even better than advertised. He has presence on the field, is accurate, a big arm, accurate and look like he has been in the NFL for 5 years. He is by no means a dummy with a big body. I think he is a future all pro and the Panthers have a good future ahead of them.
 
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john h

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Well, if a poor OL is in fact a big contributor and I believe it is. How do we fix that this year?

Fact is we cannot do anything other than change schemes which may be better or worse.
 

john h

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I do not know. How do the good teams build a line and keep it good? :shrug:

We have always had OL problems, IMHO.

When was the last time we had a QB who felt completely safe behind our line?

Some teams have very workable philosophies of getting rid of players who are nearing the end of their careers but still have value and still playing well. They have backup in the wings ready to take over. We are the team that often picks up these high priced good players but have a short playing career left. Do not keep players, no matter how good, beyond a certain point. A QB might be an exception to this and Warner was a prime example. He and Fitz and Boldin almost won us a super bowl. Emmitt Smith was still a good player when we got him but his career lasted only two more years. We have a couple of past all pros who we got from teams that do not keep even good players to long. We are more a reactive team than a proactive team. By all means keep on drafting QB's until you find a QB of the future. Some coaches say you always take a top flight QB in the draft if he is available even if you do not have an immediate need. You cannot have to many good QB's. A team starts and ends with the QB. He is by far the most important player on the team. The Colts broke a cardnal rule for success. They had no backup plan for the loss of Manning and as a result there record speaks for itself. From 1st to last in one instant.
 
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AzStevenCal

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How are people blaming this all on the line? Are you even watching games? On the VAST majority of passing plays Kolb is given plenty of time to throw, and he either holds onto the ball far too long or stupidly rolls out to the right and then puts himself into a situation where he has no blockers and is going to get smeared.

I would say at least 80% of the hits he has taken have come because he lacks pocket awareness and leaves the pocket far too often.

I don't know about your percentages but I think there's many of us here that agree with this (at least to some extent). Kolb puts a tremendous amount of pressure on his O-Line but we've also seen far too many missed blocks by our tackles.

Steve
 

john h

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Ok. Then how will we be comfortable with Kolb by the end of this season if we can't protect him?

I am well aware we have no talent.

Many of Kolb's problems are created by Kolb and not the offensive line. He can also make a line look bad by not staying in the pocket and leaving the OL to guess where he will be. Announcers notice that. I think we all see it as it is hard to miss. The answer is clear. Kolb must learn to step into the pocket and not backwards. Of course, there will be times he has to retreat but for the most part he must give the OL a chance to do the best they can to protect him. They have done well opening up holes for Bennie Wells. No reason to blame everything on the Butler. He did not commit the crime IMHO. Kolb more than just shares in the blame for his performance. He seems to lack a good internal clock and it has been shown graphically as he is slow to release. How much of he field he is seeing I do not know. His accuracy has been marginal at best. He has thrown to many interceptions. He is still, in my mind, a 4 year rookie and it is showing. Lots of time to recover but it is in his hands. We should be seeing improvement each week but in fact we have gotten worse each week. Why is that? Blame the coach, blame the play calling, blame the offensive line but in the end it is Kolb who is making the mistakes. He may be the new sheriff in town but so far he has not been Marshal Matt Dillon. If he can quickly become what most thought he would be we could win 7 or 8 games. If he continues at his present pace we will win hopefully 2-3 games and be in the Andrew Luck race.
 

Dayman

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How are people blaming this all on the line? Are you even watching games? On the VAST majority of passing plays Kolb is given plenty of time to throw, and he either holds onto the ball far too long or stupidly rolls out to the right and then puts himself into a situation where he has no blockers and is going to get smeared.

I would say at least 80% of the hits he has taken have come because he lacks pocket awareness and leaves the pocket far too often.
I also think the O-line is fielding too much blame for Kolb's struggles. Our tackles are poor, and we've all been conditioned to rightfully blame the O-line every year, but they don't seem to be the main problem in this situation. To me, Kolb's lack of pocket presence and the system we're running are more pressing issues.

Kolb loves to run out of the pocket to escape pressure. The problem is that he's not very good at it. He isn't extending plays. Most of the time he's just running to the sidelines to throw the ball away, even though shorter routes appear to be open while he's in the pocket. He's also started to run backwards in the pocket like a 12 year old playing Madden and has a strange penchant for throwing off his back foot. This leads to problem two.

This offensive system that Whis insists works with any personnel seems to be predicated on the QB standing tall in the pocket for as long as possible and getting hit on nearly every play. It worked well with Warner because he was one of the rare QBs who didn't mind getting his head taken off if it resulted in a 20 yard gain. However, most QBs are not willing to subject themselves to that kind of punishment. Kolb has done it a few times, but his more common reaction seems to be avoiding a hit by any means necessary. Which then leads to problem three.

Whis could be a QB killer. He had success with a future Hall of Fame QB determined to revive his career, but I've seen little evidence that Whis can identify or develop young talent at the position. Big Ben rejoiced when Whis left town. Leinart had plenty of issues, but confidence wasn't one of them until Whis got a hold of him. Bartel (Brian St. Pierre part II) is still the backup even though Skelton is back to being healthy. That isn't a great sign for the future of Skelton. And now Kolb looks more or less shaken out there after 5 games. When you throw in the Max Hall and DA disasters, I don't know how anybody can feel confident that an inexperienced QB will be fine in this system, especially one who needs as much development as Kolb. The majority of the supporting evidence seems to suggest the opposite.
 

Russ Smith

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I don't know about your percentages but I think there's many of us here that agree with this (at least to some extent). Kolb puts a tremendous amount of pressure on his O-Line but we've also seen far too many missed blocks by our tackles.

Steve

Agreed I think 80% is pretty high but there is no question that Kolb is contributing to a lot of the problems the OL has by moving into pressure when he didn't have to move. That's the lost trust in the OL problem that Kolb has gotta fix.

If the protection is there stay in and deliver the ball. If it's not use your legs but stop running backwards so much and losing more yards.
 

Cheesebeef

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I don't know about your percentages but I think there's many of us here that agree with this (at least to some extent). Kolb puts a tremendous amount of pressure on his O-Line but we've also seen far too many missed blocks by our tackles.

Steve

agreed.
 
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