KT v Duncan and Suns v Spurs: An Analysis

[playstation]

i wanted to revisit that matchup last year. it's all well and good when robinson says KT did a great job, but that's not good enough for me. i also didn't want to look at averages, as that misses a lot of the story to me. this is what i came up with

we know the intangibles:

-KT did his defense mostly in a 1on1 context. eliminating double-coverage was a positive he provided.
-KT was excellent at denying position and working BEFORE Duncan got the ball

here's the stats:
Gm1: KT 13min, Duncan 33/16/1 on 50% 2 fouls, rest of spurs: 50%,Spurs win by 5

Gm2: KT 28min, Duncan 29/11/1 on 60% 4 fouls, rest of spurs: 37%,Suns win by 20

Gm3: KT 36min, Duncan 33/19/0 on 63% 4 fouls, rest of spurs: 38%,Spurs win by 7

Gm4: KT 26min, Duncan 21/11/2 on 64% 5 fouls, rest of spurs: 44%,Suns win by 6

Gm5: KT 36min, Duncan 21/12/2 on 50% 3 fouls, rest of spurs: 38%,Spurs win by 3

Gm6: KT 17min, Duncan 24/13/1 on 58% 3 fouls, rest of spurs: 46%,Spurs win by 8

Observations:
-Obviously, Game 1 is the doomsday scenario we are all fearing. No KT, Duncan kills us individually, but also we have to double and the rest of the team also kills us. Of course, even in that scenario it took a bloody nose to stop us.
-I look across the board, no where do i see Duncan stopped. In fact, no where do I even see him slowed down.
-Seems like KT's value was mainly in being able to guard 1on1 without fouling, but he still let Duncan do whatever he wanted. Sure TD had to work harder, but he still scored VERY efficiently.
-For all the good KT did, if this is the result, then you have to wonder about this strategy.
-Compared to the other playoff series, TD played his BEST in this one. While KT was decent, looking back at it I wouldn't call him good.

We must acknowledge at this point vs the Suns that Duncan is unstoppable. He's going to get his, and he's getting them efficiently. No more 'who's guarding Tim' questions. Nobody is stopping him. However, given what Duncan has done, the question is can what we do against the rest of his team, as well as our value offensively to trump that?

This is where it gets interesting. First of all, we have Skinner/Marks. These guys, while not excellent defenders, will fight him and you have 12 fouls there no matter how you slice it (18 with PJ). You also have a smarter Amare, who again will not be able to stop Duncan, but the hope is if he has to guard for a couple minutes he won't foul out (assuming Donahy isn't officiating lol). You also have Boris, who is an extremely smart defender, although lacks great talent.

So you have the meat. You also need a bit of intelligence. You're not outsmarting Duncan, but you can outsmart the rest of their team. Spend 30-40% of the time guarding him 1on1, but the rest of the time, bring the double. But don't do it the same way every time. sometimes strong side, sometimes weak side, sometimes exclusively off 1 player (their worst shooter). Keep the rest of the guys guessing. This takes DISCIPLINE, something that needs to be developed during this season.

And one more thing:
Suns v Spurs, Feb 1 2007.
Suns 103, Spurs 87. Duncan 20/18/4 on 33%...KT was a DNP injury. This was with James Jones getting 21 min, Raja playing only 10 cause of injury, and the Spurs having a fully health team (and Manu dropping 32).

My point is this can be done. It takes better coaching, it takes better defensive awareness, and it takes bodies to give fouls in the middle of the game. All of these things are do-able.

 

[mribnik]

-KT did his defense mostly in a 1on1 context. eliminating double-coverage was a positive he provided.
-KT was excellent at denying position and working BEFORE Duncan got the ball

The first is a moot point IMO. He didn't eliminate double-coverage. The Suns just chose not to double-dover Duncan when KT was on him. The result was Duncan killing the Suns. You could stick Sean Marks on Duncan, have Duncan go off on him but not double-cover Duncan, but would that mean Marks eliminated the need to double-cover Duncan?

The second point is true, but the end result was Duncan still killing the Suns. It also probably slowed the game down a bit.

I honestly don't think it takes a great defensive player on Duncan to beat the Spurs. In some ways the Spurs aren't at their best when they simply give Duncan the ball in the low post every play. The rest of their players get out of rhythm. I've heard Spurs fans complain about that a lot when Pop calls their "4 down" play on every possession.

The key for the Suns is having someone other than Amare guard Duncan, but that player has to fit the Suns system. Marks looked pretty agile last night and it looks like his shot is pretty decent too. In fact, I'm almost positive Kerr is snickering at all those who accused him of fluffing Marks and saying "MARKS IS WHO I THOUGHT HE WAS!" It's only fair. Duncan does not guard Amare and he stays out of foul trouble. Duncan will destroy anyone the Suns put on him, so it makes sense to have someone guard him who isn't as valuable as Amare. Let Duncan go off, but keep Amare on the court and have him draw fouls on the other end. Contain Parker and Ginoboli and the Spurs can be beat.

Obviously it helps to have a defensive-minded shot-blocking center guarding Duncan, but there aren't any out there and it's not a good idea to change the Suns style to hold Duncan to 26 ppg on 57% shooting. A lot of people on this board hated D'Antoni for his stubbornness on this matter, but I actually agree with him.

 

[Sunsman44]

Sorry.

Interesting topic. But talked and analyzed about it too much in the past.

Just get this season started and hope Suns don't choke on the Spurs and/or keep their butts on the bench when somebody swings at Nash.

 

[elindholm]

So, let's see.

In the four games in which Thomas played at least 20 minutes, the Spurs other than Duncan cracked 40% shooting only once. That looks pretty significant to me.

You also left out two other important statistics, rebounds and free-throw attempts:

Game 1: Rebounds 49-35 Spurs, FTA 33-27 Spurs
Game 2: Rebounds 40-39 Spurs, FTA 19-16 Suns
Game 3: Rebounds 47-39 Spurs, FTA 36-27 Spurs
Game 4: Rebounds 42-32 Suns, FTA 29-14 Suns
Game 5: Rebounds 42-39 Suns, FTA 28-17 Spurs
Game 6: Rebounds 43-43, FTA 30-24 Spurs

So in Games 1 and 6, the Suns got killed on the boards once and were even once, whereas in the other four games, they outrebounded the Spurs overall (!) and got significantly outrebounded only in Game 3.

The team that shot more free throws won every game, but at least the Suns got their turn to benefit from the calls when Thomas played big minutes.

Saying "Duncan will get his" is too simplistic. Yes, he will, but what else is going on in the meantime? How much are the Suns scrambling just to "hold" him to 55% or 60% shooting. Does anyone doubt that he would score even more efficiently if defended straight up by any current Sun, with the possible exception of Skinner? Giving up 60%+ shooting to the league's best player is pretty bad, but better that than 75% with a dozen free throws and putting half the rotation in foul trouble. Gimmick defenses can take you only so far.

The regular-season win looks nice, but it doesn't mean much. Officials call things differently in the playoffs, and the Suns won't get the calls (or, as the case may be, the non-calls) that they've grown used to in the regular season.

 

[arwillan]

im surprised i'm the first to say this:

if the suns put someone 1-on-1 with duncan (other than pj), why would the spurs not feed him the ball each and every time down the court? it only makes sense to me... you could say that would be boring, but that hasnt stopped the spurs yet. you can shut down parker and ginobili all you want, but you have to be able to somewhat control duncan too

 

[azirish]

I think some of the problem the Suns have with the small defense is that the Spurs are better than anyone at getting the ball into the post against denail defense. I wish I had access to the videos because it seemed like they had no trouble getting Duncan the ball without relying on Parker to make the passes. I think there is something the Suns should learn to use.

The second problem was that Suns rarely rotated effectively when doubled Duncan. The key to double teaming is for the other three defenders to deny outlet lanes for the guy with the ball. The Suns seem to try to simply steal the ball from the man which doesn't work since Duncan passes so quickly. But that's partly because they are leaving someone close enough to make for an easy outlet.

The next big issue will be if Skinner can do some of what KT did. Skinner is just as tall as KT and is pretty strong. He's not the shooter KT is, but the issue is whether he can do something on the defensive end. One advantage Skinner might have over KT is that he's athletic enough to play denial as well as straight post defense. It is something to watch for.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

This is why I respected this scenario last week at Media Day

Reporter: So Shawn, who is going to guard Duncan this year?

Marion: We don't know.

Reporters: LOL!

Marion: It's not funny.


I think hack-a-tim may be a one of few possible options. He has a horrible FT shot (which makes me feel good) and his % isnt too impressive.

p.s. If we really want to be optimistic here, we can say the duncan issue is a moot point altogether, as the spurs have more of a problem with amare than we do with duncan. Focus on stopping the playoffs MVP and I think you have a much better chance. Im hoping to see banks/DJ play vs the spurs in the regular season, I think it would be a wise experimental move on dantino's part.

 

[azirish]

Im hoping to see banks/DJ play vs the spurs in the regular season, I think it would be a wise experimental move on dantino's part.

Having guys capable of dealing with Parker would huge. He is at least as important as Duncan.

BTW, in preparing Amare to play Duncan, his only job should be to stay low and not let Tim get around him. Tim is deadly as a shooter, but nothing like if he gets to the basket. It's very frustrating to watch him hit that jumper, but Amare needs to understand he cannot block it and should not try.

 

[HooverDam]

Sorry.

Interesting topic. But talked and analyzed about it too much in the past.

Just get this season started and hope Suns don't choke on the Spurs and/or keep their butts on the bench when somebody swings at Nash.

You're the worst poster ever.

Against SA, what I would do is, start the regular starting 5 for the Suns, and have the matchs up be:

Amare on Elson/Oberto
Nash on Bowen
Bell on Manu
Marion on Parker
Hill on Duncan

The reason I like this is because it means Duncan has to cover either Amare, Hill or Marion on defense. They are all way too quick for him. If he covers Amare especially, the Suns should just feed him the ball early (or really whoever Duncans guarding) and try to get TD into foul trouble. If you can bait Duncan into picking up a quick 2 fouls, thats a great way to go.

Futhermore, I don't think Hill will be any worse on Duncan than anyone else, and it gives D'Antoni his goal of having 5 offensive threats on the flour. If you start Skinner, it means Duncan gets to totally rest on the other end and stay out of foul trouble.

 

[Errntknght]

One reason I haven't been worrying much about getting a big that can defend TD is that most of them make life too easy on defense for him. From the Spurs point of view, Skinner is ideal - Tim will expend almost no energy on him and he'll be available to defend the paint in his large amount of spare time. That, in turn, allows their perimeter defenders to play tight to choke off 3pt threats - because TD is ready to help if their men drive. We saw last year that the Spurs were willing for Tim to leave KT to help and he is far more of a threat than Skinner. It was probably a mistake on the Suns part not to do everything they could to make KT more of threat and at times it seemed like they tried to a small extent.

I'm pretty sure D'Antoni thinks in those terms and with Hill on the team we might have a front court that will have no one that TD is comfortable guarding. If Diaw plays like he did against Dallas year before last, we might even have multiple FC combinations that will uncomfortable for Tim. The idea of course, is to make TD work hard, regardless of who he chooses to guard - whoever he guards should be involved in lots of P&R/P&P and we could try reversing that by setting lots of back picks on Tim. Also, whoever he guards should be sprinting the floor at every opportunity. Multiple FCs like that would be great because we could sub frequently for whoever he is guarding so he has to shirt gears a bit.

Then all D'Antoni has to do is play his bench heavily so we can push the tempo all game long - we just might have a team that Duncan doesn't enjoy playing against. Up until now I think he's looked forward to games with us with relish.

EDIT: GMTA, right Hoover?

 

[cly2tw]

here's the stats:
Gm1: KT 13min, Duncan 33/16/1 on 50% 2 fouls, rest of spurs: 50%,Spurs win by 5

Gm2: KT 28min, Duncan 29/11/1 on 60% 4 fouls, rest of spurs: 37%,Suns win by 20

Gm3: KT 36min, Duncan 33/19/0 on 63% 4 fouls, rest of spurs: 38%,Spurs win by 7

Gm4: KT 26min, Duncan 21/11/2 on 64% 5 fouls, rest of spurs: 44%,Suns win by 6

Gm5: KT 36min, Duncan 21/12/2 on 50% 3 fouls, rest of spurs: 38%,Spurs win by 3

Gm6: KT 17min, Duncan 24/13/1 on 58% 3 fouls, rest of spurs: 46%,Spurs win by 8

So you have the meat. You also need a bit of intelligence. You're not outsmarting Duncan, but you can outsmart the rest of their team. Spend 30-40% of the time guarding him 1on1, but the rest of the time, bring the double. But don't do it the same way every time. sometimes strong side, sometimes weak side, sometimes exclusively off 1 player (their worst shooter). Keep the rest of the guys guessing. This takes DISCIPLINE, something that needs to be developed during this season.

And one more thing:
Suns v Spurs, Feb 1 2007.
Suns 103, Spurs 87. Duncan 20/18/4 on 33%...KT was a DNP injury. This was with James Jones getting 21 min, Raja playing only 10 cause of injury, and the Spurs having a fully health team (and Manu dropping 32).

My point is this can be done. It takes better coaching, it takes better defensive awareness, and it takes bodies to give fouls in the middle of the game. All of these things are do-able.

From the data, you guys overlooked the obvious: KT's minutes were strictly correlatated with shooting efficiency of the rest of the Spurs' team. I.e. the more KT played, the lower % the rest of Spurs shot. Haven't we kept talking on this board that it's about shutting down the rest outsideTD that was the key to win against them? Well, apparently, it all must start from covering TD one-on-one well enough!

All these may not even be needed if we could punish them on the offense for putting Bowen on Nash! With Hill, we'll solve this problem partially. They can put whomever they want on Marion to shut him down, but outside Bowen, nobody could really guard Hill! And it looks like our French guy will regain his form this time. I'm quite optimistic now that we'd win a title despite the presence of Marion!

 

[cly2tw]

im surprised i'm the first to say this:

if the suns put someone 1-on-1 with duncan (other than pj), why would the spurs not feed him the ball each and every time down the court? it only makes sense to me... you could say that would be boring, but that hasnt stopped the spurs yet. you can shut down parker and ginobili all you want, but you have to be able to somewhat control duncan too

Well, first, KT made it difficult for TD to catch the pass in a good position. And TD, as smart as he is, picked his chances to try to score 1-on-1. Had he tried to force it everytime he caught it, his shooting % wouldn't be as high. It's like Tyson Chandler might have the highest % in the league but his team can't win on that. In fact, if the Spurs offense became monotonic like that, it'd be even easier to defend him 1-on-1, thus making this strategy less effective.

 

[dodie53]

if duncan, parker or manu gets injured..

the suns' problems would be solved!

=)

 

[JCSunsfan]

These stats would be more helpful if we could get them for the actual minutes that KT played vs. the minutes that he did not play.

Are those available anywhere?

Again, for me, the best way to see KT's effectiveness is just to watch the game and watch him specifically. He is a fantastic interior defender.

The negative on KT was that he was slow getting from one end to the other. As a result we usually played slower with KT on the floor. Of course, the coach didn't like that so KT didn't get many minutes.

The advantage Skinner has is that he is faster and more athletic (something that did not show very much when he was with the Bucks) so he has a chance to get more minutes. I have no idea how that will work overall.

If our perimeter defense is better, it will be harder for the Spurs to get the ball into Duncan. The best defense against the Spurs is to try to keep the ball out of the middle.

 

[The Man In Black]

Hello Suns Fans-
Point and counterpoint.

The Spurs aren't going to deviate from what they do. Duncan doesn't isolate on Stoudamire if ever, that task will always go to Oberto/Elson/and new French Pogo Stick-Ian Mahinmi.

Hoover gave a smart opinion:

Against SA, what I would do is, start the regular starting 5 for the Suns, and have the matchs up be:

Amare on Elson/Oberto
Nash on Bowen
Bell on Manu
Marion on Parker
Hill on Duncan

I'm assuming that these are defensive alignment matchups and the quotes below add to that.

The reason I like this is because it means Duncan has to cover either Amare, Hill or Marion on defense. They are all way too quick for him.

The Spurs are masters at cross-matchups. It's more unlikely that Tim will always have to cover Grant. Pop will employ the matchups that he sees fit. Sometime he will employ Bowen on Nash but more often than not, Parker stays home and then Bowen will roam to what situation needs the most attention with Manu getting secondary duty. The fact that Parker stays close enough to Nash in terms of production, is almost as large a factor as Duncan owning the paint even when Amare' blows up. The Spurs have had the discipline needed to consistently apply their defensive alignments despite D'Antoni's adjustments, they simply believe more in what they do works the Suns. Maybe this will be the year the Suns get past it, but remember you now have to incorparate 1 new player to your system whereas the Spurs are coming in with all 12 of their players from last year's playoffs. The only weakness maybe their perceived elderly status but truthfully, other than Duncan at 31, who plays more than 35 mins a game that would neccesitate a rest period?

If he covers Amare especially, the Suns should just feed him the ball early (or really whoever Duncans guarding) and try to get TD into foul trouble. If you can bait Duncan into picking up a quick 2 fouls, thats a great way to go.

Again it's a cross matchup and even if he did have to cover STAT, he does garner some respect as a 10-time ALL-NBA D team player. That works to his advanatage.

Futhermore, I don't think Hill will be any worse on Duncan than anyone else, and it gives D'Antoni his goal of having 5 offensive threats on the flour.

If you're asking a 210 lb. Grant to cover a 265 lb. Duncan plus give up 4-5 inches in height plus all that arm length, you are asking for Duncan to take over the game and go triple double on you.

If you start Skinner, it means Duncan gets to totally rest on the other end and stay out of foul trouble.

There are 2 sides of the court right?

 

[HooverDam]

If you're asking a 210 lb. Grant to cover a 265 lb. Duncan plus give up 4-5 inches in height plus all that arm length, you are asking for Duncan to take over the game and go triple double on you.

I don't want Hill on Duncan the entire game, or even most of it. W/ out KT the best strategy against TD is to throw different looks at him. If Hill, Amare, Marion, Diaw and Skinner all take cracks at TD, it will hopefully lead to him being slightly more off balance and force him to adjust to different things. I think Hill can guard TD for the first 5-10 minutes of the game, sure, just as well as anyone else on the Suns can anyway.

You said you think TD will guard Hill, what on Earth makes you think that? Big slow Tim Duncan is going to guard cut to the basket, mid range shooting Grant Hill? Sure they both are older and have been slowed by ankle injuries, but Hill would shred TD. Furthermore, TD needs to try to stay in the painted area on defense so that he can help Oberto/Elson when Amare's tearing them apart.

One of the biggest keys to D'Antoni's system is putting 5 offensive players on the floor who can all be very good scorers, this creates nightmares for the other team. When you put a guy like Skinner on the court, you allow at least one of the other teams players to rest on defense, in this case, their best player. To me, it seems thats the last thing you want to do is let TD rest. I'd love to watch him try to chase Marion or Hill, or try to keep up w/ Amare's athleticism. TD is a good defender, against traditional bigs, but he won't be as effective against Hill, Marion or Amare, so why not take advantage?

 

[azirish]

In the scrimmage Skinner hit a mid range jumper. A secret weapon? (He's kept it a secret for 10 years).

 

[The Man In Black]

I don't want Hill on Duncan the entire game, or even most of it. W/ out KT the best strategy against TD is to throw different looks at him. If Hill, Amare, Marion, Diaw and Skinner all take cracks at TD, it will hopefully lead to him being slightly more off balance and force him to adjust to different things. I think Hill can guard TD for the first 5-10 minutes of the game, sure, just as well as anyone else on the Suns can anyway.

See that's it really. TD is used to seeing all that come at him. Truthfully the type of player that bugs him most will be the type that stands his ground and has long arms. Rasheed Wallace fits that mold best. Kurt Thomas as a Sun was last year's best option. Those other guys you hope are deterrents other than Amare, are players that Duncan can abuse and has.

You said you think TD will guard Hill, what on Earth makes you think that?

I don't think I said. I said the Spurs are great at Cross matchups and that it's unlikely that Duncan will always have to cover Hill. He may in stretches but more likely he'd cover Amare' at times and then whoever else D' Antoni sticks at what would normally be termed a 4 or PF. But since Zones are legal, perhaps Tim drifts a bit keeping his vision to see both man and ball. That ALL-NBA D team placement every year says he is pretty good at doing that.

Big slow Tim Duncan is going to guard cut to the basket, mid range shooting Grant Hill? Sure they both are older and have been slowed by ankle injuries, but Hill would shred TD.

I agree with you that Grant could get around him, but if the ball goes the other way and Grant has to guard him back, Tim backing him down to the low-block is an easier scoring opp because of height and power.

Furthermore, TD needs to try to stay in the painted area on defense so that he can help Oberto/Elson when Amare's tearing them apart.

When Amare was averaging that ungodly 35+, it didn't matter to Pop because that's what was needed for the D to work. Saying Amare needs to do that plus accomodate the new talent in Grant Hill means that either the Suns have to speed up the pace so that all of their players get their shots in, or someone has to sacrifice their game to allow for Grant to get his shots(15 points per).

One of the biggest keys to D'Antoni's system is putting 5 offensive players on the floor who can all be very good scorers, this creates nightmares for the other team. When you put a guy like Skinner on the court, you allow at least one of the other teams players to rest on defense, in this case, their best player. To me, it seems thats the last thing you want to do is let TD rest.

That's a huge misconception in that Duncan hates to run. It's mind-boggling how much people don't know about his past as a swimmer, a long-distance one at that and as such, he has more than enough stamina to handle most games. When he was hobbled with plantar fasciitis, that posed more of an issue than his stamina.

I'd love to watch him try to chase Marion or Hill, or try to keep up w/ Amare's athleticism.

He's done that but by being smart opting to cut them off at the rim and leaving them open for longer mid-range shots as opposed as them trying to go straight to the rim. Only Amare could do that but remember that Amare has to contend with another big who is most likely in proper positional defensive placment. It's very key for San Antonio to never give up middle and it's predicated by the bigs knowing that the perimeter players will funnel to them. Hence, the always telling Opponents Field Goal Percentage Allowed. Spurs are always amongst the league leaders and it isn't by accident.

TD is a good defender, against traditional bigs, but he won't be as effective against Hill, Marion or Amare, so why not take advantage?

In 03, he passed and rebounded to get his team past the Suns. In 05, he dominated as much as Amare did plus got more consistent play from his teammates to garner the W, and in 07, what could Kurt Thomas do? I won't talk about the incident but the song remains the same...it'll take a very strong team on both sides of the court to beat the Spurs 4 out of 7.

Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[HooverDam]

^Are you a Spurs fan, because you make it sound like there's literally no successful strategy the Suns can throw at the Suns.

Look all I'm saying is, w/ out KT, I think the Suns need to employ a tactic that has two main prongs; 1. get out to a quick lead, 2. try to get TD in foul trouble.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Yes, he is a spur fan, here to stir the pot. A lot more sensible than previous spur trolls though.

 

[The Man In Black]

Curious...is it possible to stir the pot yet be sensible? I need that one explained to me. Unless of course, I'm just being singled out because I'm a fan of a different team.

It's just basketball talk. I was here last season playoff time and completely appreciate what Steve Nash has for the game of basketball and his love for soccer.

I didn't say there wasn't a succesful strategy to beat the Spurs, I just poked holes in yours Hoover.

Now how do you attack the Spurs? See Sonics circa 2005 Round 1
http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/playoffcentral_rd2_05.html


Their main weakness is that their defense allows mid-range shots, the problem is that you have to be disciplined enough to recognize that that shot is your best chance for success. But in today's NBA, players want to challenge and go for the drive, or they want to stop at the arc and let fly. The mid-range shot is something your team has in abundance. If they make them, then they have a chance to win. Now defensively, the way to handle them is to press the lead guards. Both Ginobili and Parker will take chances as evidenced by their turnover rate. Duncan's efficiency balances it out but there has been hiccups that have made the Spurs vulnerable. I ain't saying that the Suns can't win, I'm just saying that their are inherent changes that occur when incorporating a new player into an already pretty successful team. For incoming Spurs players, it's more about Year 2 than Year 1, it's just that they get to play with the Spurs Big 3 that eases the transition. Hill is smart though, he may be the difference maker that you hope for. Only Time Will Tell.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Curious...is it possible to stir the pot yet be sensible? I need that one explained to me. Unless of course, I'm just being singled out because I'm a fan of a different team.

Absolutely.

A devil's advocate type character can be an essential piece of rational discourse and idea development. Someone who focuses strictly on antithesis concepts and eliminating groupthink from a certain party is a valuable asset to many organizations. In fact, some corporations employ personnel for that purpose only. You will see this in fields such as marketing, research, development, analysis, and at both the executive and worker level.

Granted, it is a fine line between being a sensible pot-stirrer and an ankle-biting douchebag, but it is certainly feasible. Spurs fans consistently have trouble finding this line, so be careful.

Does that help your confusion?

 

[The Man In Black]

Absolutely.

A devil's advocate type character can be an essential piece of rational discourse and idea development. Someone who focuses strictly on antithesis concepts and eliminating groupthink from a certain party is a valuable asset to many organizations. In fact, some corporations employ personnel for that purpose only. You will see this in fields such as marketing, research, development, analysis, and at both the executive and worker level.

Granted, it is a fine line between being a sensible pot-stirrer and an ankle-biting douchebag, but it is certainly feasible. Spurs fans consistently have trouble finding this line, so be careful.

Does that help your confusion?

That might be the smartest post I've ever seen in all the boards I've visited/invaded. Bravo to you sir. And yes it does help clarify my question. I guess in many levels, the basketball concepts discussed could either be a boon or a blight to the way perception is shaped when it comes to a team's likelihood for success. No matter what though, there are things that occur during a long season that can either hinder or propel a team to a title. We'll what happens as the season plays out. Again, thanks for the discussion.

 

[playstation]

this is too deep for me...

need to dumb it down a little...

you suck man in black!!! go back to san antonio where you belong! lol

 

[The Man In Black]

Playstation...now that is what I'm used to seeing.

And San Diego via Yuma is a long way from San Antonio.