Kurt Thomas versus Tim Thomas - Pick one!

[Mainstreet]

you must have been watching a different Phoenix Suns team than the rest of us this year. With Kurt Thomas this was one of the top three teams in the NBA, and when he went down they were a .500 team. I also don't understand people who keep saying that Kurt Thomas doesn't fit D'Antoni's system. That argument might have held some water last summer, but we watched him fit until his foot injury.

The Phoenix Suns were still averaging around 107 points per game when Kurt Thomas was healthy. The difference was that they could actually stop people. Just before his injury they were in the top three in opponents points for possession. After his injury they were at the bottom of the league defensively and couldn't stop anyone.

Besides, as Errntknght said, it would be difficult to trade Kurt Thomas right now anyways. He's an older player with a large contract coming off an injury. The same reasons that many of you would like to trade him make him very difficult to trade.

Joe

Joe, you present good arguments. However, I have nightmares that KT may be getting older and not suitable for the Suns breakneck pace... and suffer another injury.

Perhaps this fear is just in my mind as I think KT has been fairly healthy over his career. He just seems so much slower than most of the Suns and TT. With Amare coming off a season ending injury, I'm wanting to hedge my bets so to speak, by going with TT. Yes, the Suns might have to package a deal to move KT, but if he is so valuable, why would they, as his contract is not that long? Also I don't believe his injury was career threatening.

Anyway those are my 2 cents.

 

[Gaddabout]

Joe, you present good arguments. However, I have nightmares that KT may be getting older and not suitable for the Suns breakneck pace... and suffer another injury.

Perhaps this fear is just in my mind as I think KT has been fairly healthy over his career. He just seems so much slower than most of the Suns and TT. With Amare coming off a season ending injury, I'm wanting to hedge my bets so to speak, by going with TT. Yes, the Suns might have to package a deal to move KT, but if he is so valuable, why would they, as his contract is not that long? Also I don't believe his injury was career threatening.

Anyway those are my 2 cents.

All I know is the Suns were a much better half-court team -- both offense and defense -- when Kurt Thomas was playing. They could still play at break-neck paces, but they didn't *have* to *all the time* to win a game. A healthy KT was difference between beating the Lakers in 4 to 5 games and the Clips in 5 or 6, in my opinion.

The Mavs presented a much different kind of matchup, in that they were not looking for scoring from their center. It didn't make sense to put KT on the floor when the Suns had a better chance at getting the Mavs in foul trouble by staying small and quick. I personally would have wagered KT would have neutralized his lack of quickness by making Diop much less of a factor on the offensive boards (and perhaps clearing more space for Marion to operate as a rebounder), but I don't blame D'Antoni for sticking to his guns in that series. I don't believe KT was the difference in winning or losing that series, because one good game probably would have brought a different adjustment from the Mavs that would have killed us.

 

[jibikao]

So Tim Thomas is leading...

I am actually surprised by the result. Hopefully we get to keep both.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I would prefer to lose Marion and keep both of these guys. Diaw could replace Marion, and, depending on oponents, KT or TT would start along with Amare and the other one would be coming off the bench for them.

I am having a really hard time picking Tim or Kurt over each other. I guess I have to look at it this way- they are different players. With Marion, Diaw, and Jones all being able to play 3, I'd have to say go with Kurt Thomas. He is the only guy on this team who plays interior defense, and the only guy who knows how to block out.

getting rid of 28 years olds in favor of 35 year olds is old suns thinking, they did that in the mid 90's alot and never went anywhere. Marion will stay even with his over inflated salary....you will see the role players change ala TT, KT, Juniorboi. etc.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

you must have been watching a different Phoenix Suns team than the rest of us this year. With Kurt Thomas this was one of the top three teams in the NBA, and when he went down they were a .500 team. I also don't understand people who keep saying that Kurt Thomas doesn't fit D'Antoni's system. That argument might have held some water last summer, but we watched him fit until his foot injury.

The Phoenix Suns were still averaging around 107 points per game when Kurt Thomas was healthy. The difference was that they could actually stop people. Just before his injury they were in the top three in opponents points for possession. After his injury they were at the bottom of the league defensively and couldn't stop anyone.

Besides, as Errntknght said, it would be difficult to trade Kurt Thomas right now anyways. He's an older player with a large contract coming off an injury. The same reasons that many of you would like to trade him make him very difficult to trade.

Joe

Joe I don't disagree that KT when healthy is value added, but is he worth it at the expense of resigning Barbosa and Diaw?
I think becuase of age it's a no, everyone calls him a work horse, well maybe in his mid 20's this was true but he is an old basketball player now unless he is doing the cream and the clear I don't see his skills improving over the next 2 years.
Also Sarver does not want to have a cubanesque payroll where we have the luxury of having multi million dollar role players like Eric Dampier, this team will likely ship him out and one of our picks this season I understand the reason's why.
With Amare and TT and Marion on he floor there should be enough size to reduce the second chance point oppourtunities and still score at will.

 

[Gaddabout]

Also Sarver does not want to have a cubanesque payroll where we have the luxury of having multi million dollar role players like Eric Dampier, this team will likely ship him out and one of our picks this season I understand the reason's why.

I'm the biggest prophet of doom when it comes to Sarver and the cap tax, but KT at $7.5 million per with two years left on his contract is an absolute bargain compared to $10 million per Damp will be averaging the next five years. I understand your point, but you're comparing a difficult situation to a ridiculously exaggerated one. KT is marketable at his current rate and salary, but there are plenty of scenarios where the Suns could keep him and be fiscally prudent. Dallas, I'm sure, regrets ever placing the call to Damp's agent.

 

[nowagimp]

you must have been watching a different Phoenix Suns team than the rest of us this year. With Kurt Thomas this was one of the top three teams in the NBA, and when he went down they were a .500 team. I also don't understand people who keep saying that Kurt Thomas doesn't fit D'Antoni's system. That argument might have held some water last summer, but we watched him fit until his foot injury.

The Phoenix Suns were still averaging around 107 points per game when Kurt Thomas was healthy. The difference was that they could actually stop people. Just before his injury they were in the top three in opponents points for possession. After his injury they were at the bottom of the league defensively and couldn't stop anyone.

Besides, as Errntknght said, it would be difficult to trade Kurt Thomas right now anyways. He's an older player with a large contract coming off an injury. The same reasons that many of you would like to trade him make him very difficult to trade.

Joe

Joe you make some good points regarding the suns offense with KT during the REGULAR season. During the playoffs, I'm not sure that would have been the case. In the playoffs, many different defensive schemes were used with alot more player movement and energy. KT definitely is a better low post defender against a Kaman(not sure that he's quick enough to guard Brand), and his rebounding fundamentals are better than ANY sun. My concern is that as defenses wear down suns players in the playoffs and the outside shots of JR, Leo, Marion, Nash become less consistent, TT's clutch shooting from three pulls a shotblocker out of the lane, and opens up the interior to penetration moves and the amare/nash pick and roll. KT had an inconsistent shot that had a range of 17 ft max, which is Amare's proven range. Thats why I think that TT's offensive skills mesh better with Amare's: TT creates spacing at the 3 pt line and Nash and Amare can run the pick and roll in the lane area without being jammed by an extra defender. KT will not help with that spacing and neither will Diaw or Marion(at least consistently). On defense, KT is a big upgrade down low over any sun, admittedly. Thats why I think we should keep both and trade KT's expiring contract(thats the value to a trading partner) after this year, before Diaw's and Leos new contracts kick in.

If I was forced to make a choice, I'd take TT with the hope that Amare returns and helps the suns defensive rebounding. Without all those offensive rebounds, the Lakers and the clips go down in 5-6 games against the suns. The mavericks are a team that are probably easier to beat with TT playing more. With KT in the game, the suns will not be able to take advantage of Diops presence on the offesnive end. I just feel that the spacing on offense is so critical in the playoffs for the suns as a small team. I also think that KT cannot play any more than 25 minutes productively, and if the suns frontline gets into foul trouble and he's expected to play extended minutes, he wont be productive.

 

[cly2tw]

All I know is the Suns were a much better half-court team -- both offense and defense -- when Kurt Thomas was playing. They could still play at break-neck paces, but they didn't *have* to *all the time* to win a game. A healthy KT was difference between beating the Lakers in 4 to 5 games and the Clips in 5 or 6, in my opinion.

The Mavs presented a much different kind of matchup, in that they were not looking for scoring from their center. It didn't make sense to put KT on the floor when the Suns had a better chance at getting the Mavs in foul trouble by staying small and quick. I personally would have wagered KT would have neutralized his lack of quickness by making Diop much less of a factor on the offensive boards (and perhaps clearing more space for Marion to operate as a rebounder), but I don't blame D'Antoni for sticking to his guns in that series. I don't believe KT was the difference in winning or losing that series, because one good game probably would have brought a different adjustment from the Mavs that would have killed us.

Totally agree. Had KT played extended minutes, everybody else would have played fewer minutes per game in addition to fewer games. From Nash to Marion to Bell, we might have had fresher and not injured legs in the Mavs series to stay sharp in the 2nd halves of the games throughout. He came back just 3 weeks too late.

 

[Joe Mama]

Let's put it this way. I'm not worried about the offense. With Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Bell, Boris Diaw, etc. coach Mike will get 105-110 points for game out of this team. I worry about them defensively. Certainly I don't expect Amare Stoudemire to be a big help in that department despite his size.

I don't see Kurt Thomas going anywhere this summer.

Joe

 

[Louis]

Keep KT.

First and foremost, he was handpicked by Amare. The signing of KT is meant to defray the physical pounding Amare would take having to defend the bigger plays of the NBA.

Not to mention, that prior to KT going down with an injury, his first major one in 8-9 years, the Suns were respectable on defense thanks to KT and Bell.

KT isn't a lane clogger as stated above. KT sits on the wings looking for his nice little jumper. He also gets involved in the pick and roll game.

While TT has a nice game, let's reflect on who is playing for a contract and his repuation.

KT actually came off the bench a little bit last season. He pulled 19 boards in a game that he didn't start.

Having KT on the bench and being able to use him to sub for Amare or Diaw will be an advantage.

 

[Covert Rain]

This really is a no brainer to me. If the team was hurting for offense then I would say Tim Thomas. However, this team needs alot of help on the rebounding and defensive end. Tim Thomas is not even close to Kurt in that reguard.

So Kurt Thomas may not be as an exciting offense player. However, with Amare playing next season, do you really think Tim is going to be the same player? He won't get the shots. So now you inject Kurt's defense and rebounding with Amare's....then this team is all of the sudden considered a good defensive team.

If this team was to rely on Tim versus Kurt, it would never get a championship. Rebounding and defense are too important.

 

[BOLDIN]

That shouldnt be the comparision. It should be

Marion Vs. Tim Thomas (W/ good players traded for marion)