Kurt Warner: Kevin Kolb will start, but he needs to learn the offense

[Cheesebeef]

lol... this really is a sad debate.

both of these guys suck. I don't know who's actually a better QB, but i do believe Skelton's at least tougher. for whatever that's worth, I have no idea.

 

[Stout]

The Skelton haters/Kolb jock strap carriers are just plain laughable. Rah rah rah, Skelton should be a pro bowler but he sucks, rah rah rah, he has no chance to ever be anything because he sucks, rah rah rah, he should get no credit for wins, rah rah rah...

Kolb has loads of upside, rah rah rah, his losses aren't his fault, rah rah rah, rookie QBs can absorb entire playbooks on their own, without coaching, so Kolb being outplayed by ROOKIES is irrelevant, rah rah rah, Kolb only needs a 15th shot to succeed in the league, rah rah rah, we can extrapolate tiny bits of Kolb's play to show how awesome he'll be, rah rah rah...



Does Skelton have plenty of negatives? You bet! Can you strip him of all credit for winning games? So I don't mention names, only a complete, mongoloid idiot can say, with a straight face, that Skelton deserves zero credit for winning games. I mean, really? No credit at all? Go back and graduate from kindergarten, for crying out loud, because you're clearly that regressed in intelligence and education.

Does Kolb have a chance to succeed? Of course he does. I don't think many people would say he has no chance. The problem is, Kolb homers go insanely crazy with their wild defenses of his gigantic problems and question marks, so people who see how incredibly flawed he is have to point it out, over and over and over again. I mean, he has a ton of marks against him. He has it all to do this season, as it were.

For God's sake, can't we just agree to these two simple statements? One: Skelton has a lot of work to do on footwork, mechanics and accuracy, but he's shown definite promise as a 5th-round QB from Fordham who hasn't had much chance to develop. Two: Kolb has shown plenty of trouble areas in his short time here, like failure to pick up the offense, inability to recognize and utilize a pocket, and tendencies toward injury, but he has a chance to grab the job by learning the offense thoroughly this offseason, gelling with his teammates, and learning to keep his ass in the pocket. Okay, so they're very LONG statements, but I think they're reasonable assessments of both players. For the love of Pete, can we at least agree on this?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The Skelton haters/Kolb jock strap carriers are just plain laughable. Rah rah rah, Skelton should be a pro bowler but he sucks, rah rah rah, he has no chance to ever be anything because he sucks, rah rah rah, he should get no credit for wins, rah rah rah...

Kolb has loads of upside, rah rah rah, his losses aren't his fault, rah rah rah, rookie QBs can absorb entire playbooks on their own, without coaching, so Kolb being outplayed by ROOKIES is irrelevant, rah rah rah, Kolb only needs a 15th shot to succeed in the league, rah rah rah, we can extrapolate tiny bits of Kolb's play to show how awesome he'll be, rah rah rah...



Does Skelton have plenty of negatives? You bet! Can you strip him of all credit for winning games? So I don't mention names, only a complete, mongoloid idiot can say, with a straight face, that Skelton deserves zero credit for winning games. I mean, really? No credit at all? Go back and graduate from kindergarten, for crying out loud, because you're clearly that regressed in intelligence and education.

Does Kolb have a chance to succeed? Of course he does. I don't think many people would say he has no chance. The problem is, Kolb homers go insanely crazy with their wild defenses of his gigantic problems and question marks, so people who see how incredibly flawed he is have to point it out, over and over and over again. I mean, he has a ton of marks against him. He has it all to do this season, as it were.

For God's sake, can't we just agree to these two simple statements? One: Skelton has a lot of work to do on footwork, mechanics and accuracy, but he's shown definite promise as a 5th-round QB from Fordham who hasn't had much chance to develop. Two: Kolb has shown plenty of trouble areas in his short time here, like failure to pick up the offense, inability to recognize and utilize a pocket, and tendencies toward injury, but he has a chance to grab the job by learning the offense thoroughly this offseason, gelling with his teammates, and learning to keep his ass in the pocket. Okay, so they're very LONG statements, but I think they're reasonable assessments of both players. For the love of Pete, can we at least agree on this?

Your boy is apparently going to get his big chance this year Stout. But no more excuses!

The above is why all of the recent debate is pretty pointless. Although they might not like to admit it publicly, I think a lot of Kolb backers (like me) would generally like to see Kevin designated as the starter, with Skelton seeing the field only if Kevin crashes and burns.

All the Skelton backers seem to be arguing for is for John to get a fair chance to earn the #1 spot. Is seems like he's clearly going to get this, so, at least in this regard, the Skelton backers have won.

The 8-1 underdog from Fordham can win it on the field during preseason, which should make for some pretty interesting practice game tilts. John will see plenty of action against the saints on 08/05. Anybody going to tune in to that one?

 

[Duckjake]

The 8-1 underdog from Fordham can win it on the field during preseason, which should make for some pretty interesting practice game tilts. John will see plenty of action against the saints on 08/05. Anybody going to tune in to that one?

In looking at pre season stats I wonder if a QB can really do that? Seems to me the more a guy plays and the better he does the less chance he has of starting.

It's almost like the job is won or lost in practice and in coaches looking back at the prior year more than on anything that happens on the field in August.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

lol... this really is a sad debate.

both of these guys suck. I don't know who's actually a better QB, but i do believe Skelton's at least tougher. for whatever that's worth, I have no idea.

Quiet you!

Go back to your place of logic! We need none of it here!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The Skelton haters/Kolb jock strap carriers are just plain laughable.

For the love of Pete, can we at least agree on this?

Yes, but did you have to be so mean about it ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

In looking at pre season stats I wonder if a QB can really do that? Seems to me the more a guy plays and the better he does the less chance he has of starting.

It's almost like the job is won or lost in practice and in coaches looking back at the prior year more than on anything that happens on the field in August.

They can lose it.

Regardless of the pro-Leinart people still on this board, he looked pretty poor the preseason he lost his job to Kurt Warner.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I really don't care who the qb is. So as long as the Cardinals win. Advantage Skelton because he has been in the system longer than Kolb. Skeleton is going on his 3rd year as a Cardinal Qb. He has the Same coaches and same players around him. The person with no excuses is Skelton.

+1.

My horse in the race, no doubt, but I will not have any more patience for Skelton then I will have for Kolb.

Skelton HAS TO play better for four quarters, and when I say play better, I mean he can't look like Derek Anderson for 3 quarters, and then Ben Roethisberger for the 4th.......well, if he keeps winning he can I guess, but eventually that luck wears out. Think Kordell Stewart

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Our offense was worse than irrelevant, it almost became a detriment at times with the turnovers.

Nice post.

Agreed, with this, and the post quoted. There were times our offense could have done better downing the ball three times, and punting, or kicking a field goal. And yes, this was also at times where Double Deuce was in command.

Not good regardless of QB.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The Defense scored zero points. They had zero shutouts last season. So if the offense was irrelevant how did we win?

We've beat this to death. Multiple 70 yard scoring drives to win or tie late in games is not irrelevant.

Agreed.

But the 1st 3 quarters of those games is relevant. Luck is not consistent. Luck allows Early Doucet to fall on his face in the endzone, as much as your rookie punt returner, going against all logic, returning a put for 99 yards.

Yes, Skelton is a player that "makes his own luck" but it is relying on luck none the less.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

When you have Gronkowski and Hernandez, you can run 2 TE formation all day long and reek havoc on linebackers and DBs.

It is flippin' unfair.

Imagine if it was Jimmy Graham and Gronkowski ? It would be unstoppable. Much to the sha-grin of one posters around here, there is no doubt this is a passing league.

I really don't know how these defensive coordinators have even a chance to stop these 260 lbs TE's and the 210 lbs WR's when they are all on the field at the same time.

The tight ends are bigger and faster then the LB's trying to cover them, and the WR are bigger then the CB's and S's.

Just a nightmare.

And just when you think you got the right match-up Wes Welker comes out and breaks people's ankles with his quickness.

...............and people wonder why I cannot watch college football. The NFL is just such as amazing collection of rare talent. Thus why we pay the money.

 

[MoeIsBetter]

The arguments for both sides are awesome lol. I just read that whole thread. One question though...

Everyone keeps bringing up what both guys did last year to prove their guy is better. I get that's all we have to go on at this point, but everyone does realize that this job is won or lost a couple weeks from now right? We've got no idea what either one will look like yet. The coaching staff will use film from last year to judge what both need to work on, but it doesn't have a whole lot to say with any kind of definite answer who will start.

Argue while the competition is going on, not before it starts lol.

Have a great Sunday everybody.

 

[Duckjake]

They can lose it.

Regardless of the pro-Leinart people still on this board, he looked pretty poor the preseason he lost his job to Kurt Warner.

Leinart had one very poor game and three very good games. 114 rating vs NO, 108.9 vs KC and 137.5 vs Denver. How does that lose you the job just on those results?

Warner won the starting job the year before almost breaking the Franchise single season TD pass record despite starting only 11 games. 21 TDs in the last 8 games of the season! Leinart had no chance.

Dereck Anderson didn't complete even 60% of his passes in the 3 pre season games he threw more than 3 times. Games 1-3 he averaged 5.6ypa. Leinart hardly played at all and games 1-3 averaged 7ypa. Yet DA got the starting job for other reasons not related to pre season play on the field.

I don't see how you can base anything on pre season games if you and your opponents are both running nothing but vanilla schemes. I've even heard coaches say they've already got their lineup basically set prior to pre season games and they're for looking at the handful of guys on the bubble.

 

[Duckjake]

Agreed.

But the 1st 3 quarters of those games is relevant. Luck is not consistent. Luck allows Early Doucet to fall on his face in the endzone, as much as your rookie punt returner, going against all logic, returning a put for 99 yards.

Yes, Skelton is a player that "makes his own luck" but it is relying on luck none the less.

Then what Skelton did last year in the comeback wins was not luck because he did it consistently.

 

[kerouac9]

The arguments for both sides are awesome lol. I just read that whole thread. One question though...

Everyone keeps bringing up what both guys did last year to prove their guy is better. I get that's all we have to go on at this point, but everyone does realize that this job is won or lost a couple weeks from now right? We've got no idea what either one will look like yet. The coaching staff will use film from last year to judge what both need to work on, but it doesn't have a whole lot to say with any kind of definite answer who will start.

Argue while the competition is going on, not before it starts lol.

Have a great Sunday everybody.

I think that it's pretty naive to think that either quarterback is starting from a blank slate at the beginning of training camp. Forget whether it's psychologically possible to start from scratch when evaluating a guy. The coaching staff has a lot greater investment in Kolb than in Skelton, and the things Kolb does well are exactly the kinds of things that show up in practices and meaningless preseason games, but not when the games start counting.

How are you going to evaluate how Kolb responds to a pass rush in camp, when there is no pass rush? How do you evaluate whether Kolb can come back from getting hit when he's not hit?

Skelton's behind the eight ball in training camp because the things he does best can't be measured in shorts and shells, and the team isn't paying Skelton $10 million this year. In fact, Skelton's getting paid $75,000 less than Richard Bartel.

 

[THESMEL]

Skelton

Great points But if Skelton gets started earlier in Games Kolb hasn't got a chance- There is a lot of John Skelton in Tim Tebow! ( like the way I switched that?)

I expect if Skelton gets the reps he will grab it by the throat and Choke it, against Kolb's weak will. Kolb is at his peak when healthy (80-83-) Skelton is still climbing in multiple QB skillsets(82-85^.) by my grades.

line em up 10 yards apart and toss fotballs at each other until one screams out uncle! Bet 10 pushups it is not Skelton- He can thow it 100 yards on a good day! I bet their trade value is close to even at this point- and that is bottom line- kolbs declined while Skeltons increased in 2011.

Skeltons situational stats, Boy has already outplayed draft expectations!
And I would love to see brother Steven earn a role - that would bring a big energy and coolness to the offense!


http://freemeeting.1.football.cbssports.com/players/playerpage/breakdown/1686971/2011

I think that it's pretty naive to think that either quarterback is starting from a blank slate at the beginning of training camp. Forget whether it's psychologically possible to start from scratch when evaluating a guy. The coaching staff has a lot greater investment in Kolb than in Skelton, and the things Kolb does well are exactly the kinds of things that show up in practices and meaningless preseason games, but not when the games start counting.

How are you going to evaluate how Kolb responds to a pass rush in camp, when there is no pass rush? How do you evaluate whether Kolb can come back from getting hit when he's not hit?

Skelton's behind the eight ball in training camp because the things he does best can't be measured in shorts and shells, and the team isn't paying Skelton $10 million this year. In fact, Skelton's getting paid $75,000 less than Richard Bartel.

 

[az1965]

The game winning TD pass against Dallas and the pass to Jeff King against Carolina immediately come to mind.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

you really have to work hard to dig up "plays" like that for Kolb, whereas Skelton made several of those plays in the come back wins.

 

[az1965]

A great TD pass to Fitz in the end zone of the first Seattle game IIRC too after being flushed. Threw off back foot into end zone.

Sorry, that was not a great pass, it was an amazing catch by Fitz converting an int into a TD.

 

[az1965]

Give me a call when John Skelton can post better than a 70 QB Rating. Thanks!

Call me when a QB rating means anything with a 2-6 record vs. 6-2.

 

[Chopper0080]

Where am I saying these things? My point about the QBs is made in the third point of this thread. No one should be confusing either with adequate starting quarterbacks right now. I think that only one of them has the potential to be an adquate starting quarterback, and that guy isn't the fifth-year veteran on his third NFL contract. Here's a hint: It's the guy that's going to earn $75K less than Richard Bartel this year.

To use TJ's analysis, the 7-2 record to end the year should be credited to:

35% - The schedule-maker for giving us an especially toothless slate of opponents in the last half of the year.

30% - The defense for getting out of their own way enough to play to a league-average level.

20% - Patrick Peterson for being our most dynamic scoring threat and flipping field position.

15% - John Skelton's keeping the game within reach until late in the 4th quarter.

Kolb's shown that he can't hang against the better teams in the NFL--both in Philly and now here. Skelton's shown that he can barely hang on to a starting job with little faith, development, or support from the coaching staff.

Tyler Wilson 2013.

Now that, I agree with.

 

[Chopper0080]

Agreed.

But the 1st 3 quarters of those games is relevant. Luck is not consistent. Luck allows Early Doucet to fall on his face in the endzone, as much as your rookie punt returner, going against all logic, returning a put for 99 yards.

Yes, Skelton is a player that "makes his own luck" but it is relying on luck none the less.

He was at Stanford.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Leinart had one very poor game and three very good games. 114 rating vs NO, 108.9 vs KC and 137.5 vs Denver. How does that lose you the job just on those results?

Cause just like the controversy we have now between Kolb and Skelton, it is a matter of looking at the results, not just the stats.

Are we really impressed if Leinart goes 8 for 10 for 45 yds, and Warner goes 6 for 10 for 182 yards and a TD is it as bad as the stats say ?

I dunno, stats matter to a point. Obviously, I think the right decision was made when it came to starting Warner, and the reason Warner won the job is because he had decent stats AND production.

Leinart was very underwhelming and EXTREMELY conservative in all the games in the offseason, except the Raiders game, and that was a horror show for him. He lost the job for good on that day.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Then what Skelton did last year in the comeback wins was not luck because he did it consistently.

It didn't help him in Cincy, and that was pure bad luck right there if I have ever seen it.

Just sayin'

 

[Duckjake]

I dunno, stats matter to a point. Obviously, I think the right decision was made when it came to starting Warner, and the reason Warner won the job is because he had decent stats AND production.

Yes in 2007 not in pre season 2008. 3,417 yards passing and 27 TDs in only 14 games and a 5-3 finish. How do you overcome that in limited playing time in pre season games running vanilla schemes? I'm sure that the Oakland game didn't help but I'm also fairly sure the decision had already been made as to who would be the starter in 2008.

Warner only played in 3 games that pre season and threw a total of 17 passes for 142 yards and no TDs.

It didn't help him in Cincy, and that was pure bad luck right there if I have ever seen it.

True, but also bad blocking. Also good luck that Benson fumbled twice. I can see your point but what, 6 I think, drives of 70+ yards to win or tie can't just be luck.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

True, but also bad blocking. Also good luck that Benson fumbled twice. I can see your point but what, 6 I think, drives of 70+ yards to win or tie can't just be luck.

True. Totally forgot that.

What a game!

And since we are on that topic, that is another feather in Skelton's cap, the games are exciting/suspenseful. Nothing like having a guy in the huddle that gives your team the confidence, that you are never out of the game until it is 100% over.

I remember now, watching that Cincy game, and saying "It's over" about 3 or 4 times. Not until the 5th or 6th time after which Doucet fell was it a true statement.