Kurt Warner's play today?

OP
OP
IAWarnerFan

IAWarnerFan

Warnerphile, but a Cards fan!
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Posts
3,462
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
By doing that, you are lighting a match in a gas-filled room....you weren't here in preseason.
True, but I never thought it would be like this. We now play @Carolina and I'm well past this thread. Let's let this thread die and focus on Carolina!
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
So you're going to discount a player who did what he was supposed to do in an NFL offensive system and thrived just because he was surrounded with NFL talent at one of the bigger programs in college....?
That's not what I said at all. But because he put up good numbers at USC is no basis for thinking he'll be great in the NFL. In general, I'm much more skeptical of a QB in college that's on a powerhouse team like that because they never truly face much competition. Look at all the Miami and Florida QB that had huge college careers or all the Heisman winners that haven't translated to the NFL.
That's like saying Adrian Peterson wasn't going work out in the NFL because all he does is move forward with the football in the holes the offensive line gave him. Do you know how silly that sounds?
If you're trying to compare evaluating RB's and QB's coming out of college as anything remotely similar then I think you're the one who's being silly.

Please tell me if you agree with the statement:

Matt Leinart will be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.
 

Crazy Canuck

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
10,077
Reaction score
0
That's not what I said at all. But because he put up good numbers at USC is no basis for thinking he'll be great in the NFL. In general, I'm much more skeptical of a QB in college that's on a powerhouse team like that because they never truly face much competition. Look at all the Miami and Florida QB that had huge college careers or all the Heisman winners that haven't translated to the NFL.
If you're trying to compare evaluating RB's and QB's coming out of college as anything remotely similar then I think you're the one who's being silly.

Please tell me if you agree with the statement:

Matt Leinart will be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.

Please tell me if you agree with the statement:

Matt Leinart will not be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.[/
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Matt Leinart will not be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.[/
No I don't. Please post the quote making such a claim from whatever fool claimed such a thing.
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
And I value your opinion and would like to know why you think he's destined for greatness...
... It's my opinion based on three years at the collegiate level.
You guys are agreeing with this, right? Otherwise I don't understand why you're blasting me on the subject. I never said he wouldn't be great or couldn't be great. Just that it's a huge assumption at this point.
 

Crazy Canuck

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
10,077
Reaction score
0
No I don't. Please post the quote making such a claim from whatever fool claimed such a thing.

Well, who made this claim as quoted from your earlier post:

Matt Leinart will be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.
 

Shogun

Never doubt Mitch. EVER.
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Posts
4,072
Reaction score
1
That's not what I said at all. But because he put up good numbers at USC is no basis for thinking he'll be great in the NFL. In general, I'm much more skeptical of a QB in college that's on a powerhouse team like that because they never truly face much competition. Look at all the Miami and Florida QB that had huge college careers or all the Heisman winners that haven't translated to the NFL.
First of all, Miami and Florida both face strong competition because of their conferences. Florida and Miami have not produced that many Heisman winners (5 combined) and they're all QBs, so your sample is very limited. Secondly, Heisman winners (let alone QBs) have a low success rate in the pros for various reasons and to assume that one would do good just because of their award is not the right way to go. I see what you're trying to get at though, but there is more to judging a QB or any player than just competition.

Just because someone plays for a powerhouse team doesn't take away from their pro prospectus unless their characteristics are clear. Ken Dorsey had a noodle arm whose only job was not to crash the Ferrari. Jason White had no athleticism, shot knees and threw ducks half the time. Ron Dayne couldn't maintain weight and was too slow to get through the holes. Danny W. was obviously in a college offense. Tee Martin and I really could go on. All these players played elite competition and still couldn't touch or maintain success in the league. On the flipside players like DeAngelo Williams, Chad Pennington and DRC came from smaller conferences and divisions and excelled. Competition isn't everything.
If you're trying to compare evaluating RB's and QB's coming out of college as anything remotely similar then I think you're the one who's being silly.
They are actually more similar than you think, the difference is that there are more decent backs than there are decent QBs. What's the difference between what you and I said? Your same complaint about Matt Leinart can be easily be applied to running backs. Peterson ran behind an excellent line in college and had lots of holes to go through. So did J.J. Arrington, and Quentin Griffin. Both looked awesome in college. Top teams, surrounded with big talent and put up big numbers.
Please tell me if you agree with the statement:

Matt Leinart will be great in the NFL because he put up good numbers at USC.
Of course not, but that is purely an aesthetic characteristic to try and base success off of. When you watch them them play you can see whether they have it or not.
 

earthsci

That Rapscallion!!
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
8,300
Reaction score
1
Location
Phoenix
Did this really have to be a 10 page topic? All I did was gave Kurt Warner and the rest of the team a pat on the back and asked if anyone disagreed with it. :rolleyes::(:bang:
:thumbup:
I agree with you. Kurt Warner does deserve a huge pat on the back. My only point in discussing that I like Matty was to let people know that we (supporters of Leinart) aren't blind. And I got challenged on my future preference of Matt. I personally think that you are pretty open minded and I applaud the initial tone of this thread.
 

earthsci

That Rapscallion!!
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
8,300
Reaction score
1
Location
Phoenix
Link....?
I did say that I thought that Leinart will eventually be a great QB because of his track record at USC. Not because he won the Heisman. And I love how that got dragged into the mix. Tebow will never be a good QB in the NFL. Bradford will, IMO. The Heisman means squat. I saw Leinart lead a pro style offense for three years and he did it as a leader, not a slinger.

By the way Shogun, I know that you didn't drag the Heisman in. I just quoted you because I am the one who said that I thought Leinart would be great because of of his experience at USC.

Yes, I think that Leinart will be great because of what I saw when he was in college.

IAWarnerFan, you are :thumbup: by me. You like Kurt but I think that you are open-minded.
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Link....?
Previous page about half way down and I re-posted the exact question and answer a few post up.
And I got challenged on my future preference of Matt.
I wasn't challenging you and my question to you was to find out what you have seen that makes you so confident. I have watched many or all of the same games you have and I was curious what you put so much stock in that I apparently do not.
 

earthsci

That Rapscallion!!
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
8,300
Reaction score
1
Location
Phoenix
I wasn't challenging you and my question to you was to find out what you have seen that makes you so confident.
BS. Show me in my FIRST post where I sounded "so confident". I just said that I was a supporter of Leinart getting the nod next year. I was just pointing out that no matter who we want in the future Warner deserved props. You pushed to an argument.
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
As someone who wants to see Leinart lead the team next year, I thought Warner played great.
I think that Leinart will be a great QB and the sooner that we go with him the sooner that we'll see that greatness.
Your first post led me to ask why, if you think Warner is playing great would you want to replace him with Leinart. There is no wrong answer but it's confusing to me why one would want to replace the QB that's played great during the season and the playoffs so far. Sure he won't be able to do it the next 10 years but to dump him after a great 2 year run and a playoff win?
 

earthsci

That Rapscallion!!
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
8,300
Reaction score
1
Location
Phoenix
Your first post led me to ask why, if you think Warner is playing great would you want to replace him with Leinart. There is no wrong answer but it's confusing to me why one would want to replace the QB that's played great during the season and the playoffs so far. Sure he won't be able to do it the next 10 years but to dump him after a great 2 year run and a playoff win?
Because IMO he won't keep up this level of performance. We have The QB of the future, of course IMO, and we are keeping him on the bench. Seriously, can't you just let this go? My only purpose of pointing out my opinion about Leinart was to show that we aren't so miopic as to not see a good job when it happens. Like I said, good job Kurt!
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Because IMO he won't keep up this level of performance.
That's a valid concern and it's all just conversation. No need to get ruffled over it. I think there's more to back up him not declining in '09 but it may all be moot if he hangs 'em up.
 

cardsfanmd

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Posts
13,960
Reaction score
4,143
Location
annapolis, md
Why the hell do these arguements with mokler vs. the board keep happeneing and why must they go on forever. Give it a damn rest will ya?? I am supposed to be the guy that agitates the whole board.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,271
Reaction score
6,203
Location
Dallas, TX
Yes, because good qbs are a dime a dozen in the NFL, yet we have a high draft pick who has shown great progress and good talent on our bench...so we should let him walk to allow Kurt to captain us through his 39th birthday?

Play the odds, man. The odds are, we have a potentially very good QB, and you want to basically move him for a FA content to back up Kurt?

These 2 guys think everyone hates Warner. All they look at is the situation from their eyes because of their infactuation with him. Hey I think Warner has had a great year, a great career and has lead this team to great things this season. There is a bigger picture here. Rod Graves backed this team into a corner with Leinart's contract and it's time to find out if he is for real, which I believe he is. Signing Kurt to anextension ends Matt's career here!!! Unless this team spends every dime they have in free agency next off season trying to win a Super Bowl, signing Kurt prolongs the enevitable without a future QB. Do you guys think this team is good enough just as is to win a Super Bowl? I say no, because of the Oline, special teams and defense. Thats the goal, win the Super Bowl!!! Can this team with Kurt be overlhauled enough in Kurt's 2 years to do that? How often do rookies or draft picks come in and be MAJOR contributors? I wish Kurt was 34 and we didn't have to move forward, but... I have a feeling that with what Kurt and the team has achieved this season, Rod Graves will make the wrong move and resign him, stunting the growth of this team 2-3 more years because they will not have a QB of the future after he retires.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
I have been here in AZ on vacation with little access to internet but I was reading this thread on my neices Iphone and had to find a computer to respond on. I know some people get agitated about these threads but they are some of my favorites as it is the best discussion about this team IMO as it is present vs future.

I attended the last two games and had prime tix for this last one so I will weigh in on what I have read in this thread andd then wait to get back on tuesday to see the response.

Here is my thesis. Kurt had a GOOD game and was the starting QB for the biggest Cards game I have ever attended. For that I can't thank him enough. I think Donald said it best when he said when Kurt plays great we win, when he plays good we have a chance, and when he implodes we are a near certain loser. In the biggest game he limited himself to one turnover and ALLOWED the rest of the team to do their job without being comprimised. Warner and Mokler (and Mokler - you are very good at presenting your case and I agree with much of what you have to say so kudos on keeping the discussion strong for Kurt) always make the argument that the rest of the team never gets held to the same standard as Kurt - but when Kurt plays even just okay its no coincidence that the defense and even running game look better.

Now allow me to dissect the game more cleraly as I have watched it live, on TV, and read every article possible.

1) Warner had a poor first half in this respect. He was 3/9 at one point.
The throw to Fitz wasn't dumb to throw into double coverage and it wasn't the strike MD made it out ot be either. It was the smart play. Throw the ball in the air to that man beasdt Fitz and allow him to make a play. In that respect it was great. But the play was 60% Fitz, 20% the threat of the run and the rest Kurt. Like I said - it was smart and got the job done.

2) The catch and run was mostly Boldin although Kurt shuld be commended for getting rid of the ball on an all out "Casino" blitz and in stride to Q. Saying that I think Matt and many other starting QBs could make the same throw.

3) The turnover was on both Urban and Warner. The throw was a tad behind but more importantly Urban wasn't out of his break yet. That was a hot read and a miscommunication that should have been caught but maybe not thrown either. All in all the type of turnover I can live with.

4) Kurt played stellar in the second half and you could see how much more effective the run game made him. Number one it limits the amount of times we can drop back and turnover the ball and the PA is such a big weapon in the NFL and we finally took advantage.

That throw to Spach was special and very much helped by the PA drawing the LB's in. He was money that whole drive and should be commended for that. He might have won us the game with those throws.

But the debate rages on. I of course want Matt to start next year and I am interested to see what happens. I think many have pointed out that the fact that Matt has shown flashes combined with the fact that he has been able to sit and watch gives us a lot of hope for FINALLY having that young QB that can take us places. IMO if you combine a high pick (they are picked high based on productiona and physical ability) with time on the bench to grow you are going to eventually develop a stud. Its just that most teams don't have the luxury of that scenario. Carson Palmer (pre knee injury) and Aaron Rodgers are great examples.

You want to know why I am so admant of wanting Leinart to start next year opposed to maybe one more good year of Kurt?

Because my biggest fear is we let Matt go for a couple years of Warner and some other team ends up reaping the benefits of his learning these past three years we have invested. I am very confident in his abiliuty to be a stud QB on numerous factors and have been a Cardinals fan long enough to know how this works. Its almost divinely inevitable that it does happen.

Thats why I want to see what he has next year. Even at the cost of a potential playoff team with Kurt. IMO Matt will be able top get us there too and its a cruel game of russian roulette that I am just not willing pay for one, maybe two good years of Kurt.

But as I always say I defer to Wiz and if he doesn't think Matt has it or wants his won QB then so be it. As much as I want to see Matt succeed here in Arizona (I finally went all in and bought a #7 jersey before Saturdays game) Wiz has earned my confidence in him to this point to go with what he decides.

So we got the match up we wanted and lets go kick some Carolina ass on Saturday night. I like the Eagles matching up with NY and there us a chance that - gulp - the NFC could go through Arizona.

Hell hath offically frozen over.....
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,271
Reaction score
6,203
Location
Dallas, TX
I have been here in AZ on vacation with little access to internet but I was reading this thread on my neices Iphone and had to find a computer to respond on. I know some people get agitated about these threads but they are some of my favorites as it is the best discussion about this team IMO as it is present vs future.

I attended the last two games and had prime tix for this last one so I will weigh in on what I have read in this thread andd then wait to get back on tuesday to see the response.

Here is my thesis. Kurt had a GOOD game and was the starting QB for the biggest Cards game I have ever attended. For that I can't thank him enough. I think Donald said it best when he said when Kurt plays great we win, when he plays good we have a chance, and when he implodes we are a near certain loser. In the biggest game he limited himself to one turnover and ALLOWED the rest of the team to do their job without being comprimised. Warner and Mokler (and Mokler - you are very good at presenting your case and I agree with much of what you have to say so kudos on keeping the discussion strong for Kurt) always make the argument that the rest of the team never gets held to the same standard as Kurt - but when Kurt plays even just okay its no coincidence that the defense and even running game look better.

Now allow me to dissect the game more cleraly as I have watched it live, on TV, and read every article possible.

1) Warner had a poor first half in this respect. He was 3/9 at one point.
The throw to Fitz wasn't dumb to throw into double coverage and it wasn't the strike MD made it out ot be either. It was the smart play. Throw the ball in the air to that man beasdt Fitz and allow him to make a play. In that respect it was great. But the play was 60% Fitz, 20% the threat of the run and the rest Kurt. Like I said - it was smart and got the job done.

2) The catch and run was mostly Boldin although Kurt shuld be commended for getting rid of the ball on an all out "Casino" blitz and in stride to Q. Saying that I think Matt and many other starting QBs could make the same throw.

3) The turnover was on both Urban and Warner. The throw was a tad behind but more importantly Urban wasn't out of his break yet. That was a hot read and a miscommunication that should have been caught but maybe not thrown either. All in all the type of turnover I can live with.

4) Kurt played stellar in the second half and you could see how much more effective the run game made him. Number one it limits the amount of times we can drop back and turnover the ball and the PA is such a big weapon in the NFL and we finally took advantage.

That throw to Spach was special and very much helped by the PA drawing the LB's in. He was money that whole drive and should be commended for that. He might have won us the game with those throws.

But the debate rages on. I of course want Matt to start next year and I am interested to see what happens. I think many have pointed out that the fact that Matt has shown flashes combined with the fact that he has been able to sit and watch gives us a lot of hope for FINALLY having that young QB that can take us places. IMO if you combine a high pick (they are picked high based on productiona and physical ability) with time on the bench to grow you are going to eventually develop a stud. Its just that most teams don't have the luxury of that scenario. Carson Palmer (pre knee injury) and Aaron Rodgers are great examples.

You want to know why I am so admant of wanting Leinart to start next year opposed to maybe one more good year of Kurt?

Because my biggest fear is we let Matt go for a couple years of Warner and some other team ends up reaping the benefits of his learning these past three years we have invested. I am very confident in his abiliuty to be a stud QB on numerous factors and have been a Cardinals fan long enough to know how this works. Its almost divinely inevitable that it does happen.

Thats why I want to see what he has next year. Even at the cost of a potential playoff team with Kurt. IMO Matt will be able top get us there too and its a cruel game of russian roulette that I am just not willing pay for one, maybe two good years of Kurt.

But as I always say I defer to Wiz and if he doesn't think Matt has it or wants his won QB then so be it. As much as I want to see Matt succeed here in Arizona (I finally went all in and bought a #7 jersey before Saturdays game) Wiz has earned my confidence in him to this point to go with what he decides.

So we got the match up we wanted and lets go kick some Carolina ass on Saturday night. I like the Eagles matching up with NY and there us a chance that - gulp - the NFC could go through Arizona.

Hell hath offically frozen over.....

good post my man!!!
 

moklerman

Rise from the Ashes III
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
5,318
Reaction score
810
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Good post AF. And your fears and hopes are understandable just as all of the other Cards fans who feel the same.

But from what I understand, Leinart signed a 6 year deal in '06. That means the Cardinals have him until 2012 doesn't it? Also, isn't his contract structured in such a way that aside from bonuses, much of his contract is based on playing time and the escalators that are scheduled to cause his cap number to jump to $14 million in '10 won't be reached if he isn't playing?

Even worst case scenario they are reached and the Cardinals have to pay him the $14 million in '10 while still being unsure about his durability and ability when he'll likely be playing. But there is absolutely no rush to play him or fear of losing him right now in terms of his contract.

I think we all can agree that Warner, if he decides to return, is looking at two years tops in terms of productive, healthy playing time left in his career. Can someone who knows the cap and contracts better than me explain why signing him to an incentive based deal(like he's been playing under the last few years) for 3 years and spreading out whatever signing bonus they decide to give him won't work?

The Cardinals reap the benefits of however long he can continue to produce at a high level. Having both of them on the roster won't kill them capwise and when Warner retires/falters/get's injured, Leinart comes in and is the heir apparent with absolutely no controversy or inflated expectations.

Replacing Warner or even forcing him to fight for his job yet again does have some ramifications amongst the team. The fans may be split on the QB situation but I can't imagine the players are. It wasn't that long ago that the Cardinals had a negative reputation when it came to player treatment and this offseason is going to be a huge challenge for the front office already.

With what Edge has shown since coming back from what many now consider an unwarranted benching(not saying they're right but it is there) what's it going to mean to the team to lose a leader in Edge, a leader in Warner and whatever other changes happen? What will it mean for Leinart to come in to a situation where the Cardinals are facing a really tough schedule next year and the responsibility of a potential dropoff in record is attached to him replacing Warner?

While I am biased toward Warner I'm not arguing or lobbying for him to remain the starter out of simple loyalty. I called for his benching in '06 and thought he was done just like everyone else. I thought his decline wouldn't have been so glaring if he had had better support around him but his grip problems, lack of focus in protecting the ball and cavalier attitude toward turnovers had him at a point where he wasn't a viable option as an NFL starter.

But from what I can see, much like before the season but more so now that Warner has had even more success than in '07, it rewards Warner to retain his job and will ultimately benefit the overall team and Matt Leinart in particular for him to assume the job at some point rather than be handed the job yet again. Warner has earned the right to keep his job until he is unable to produce. The Cardinals will have to be smart and manage the cap but there is no rush to force Warner out or rush Leinart in. Leinart will have to be patient but he isn't buried behind Favre or Peyton. His chance is coming really soon but I don't think it's best to just hand it to him.
 

az1965

Love Games!
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Posts
14,760
Reaction score
0
Location
Austin, TX
We need one more year from Warner... I think two will be a bit too much. But, I think we need to give this team, with some more tweaking in the offseason, to become a better team. I think moklerman said best we cannot lose two leaders (in Edge and Warner) and we don't know the Boldin situation as well. We absolutely cannot repeat 1999 fiasco.
 
Top