Kyler Murray's Throwing Motion

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Manziel did not have a "limited skillset." He one-upped his performance the next year, when Kingsbury was gone. He had some off-the-field issues, but the kid still had it all there "on tape," as I keep getting reminded.

Wilson's undersized. Kyler is even more undersized. Just because Russell Wilson is a moldbreaker doesn't mean Kyler is too. You can not say he's "NO LONGER" undersized, he is the shortest QB ever drafted in the first round. He's undersized and will never change it. If he succeeds, he will again be an exception to the rule. Same with the running argument - great for Russell Wilson. He's a great player. RG3 was not able to succeed this way, nor was Vick, and we're going to see if Deshaun Watson holds up after two ACL tears.

I'm not ready to anoint Trubisky a success... year 1 wasn't very good, year 2 was a "success" in that he was able to play in the Pro Bowl as an alternate, but he's still a distant third to his lower drafted counterparts. You have Trubisky and Cam, but how about Mark Sanchez?

You're cherrypicking successes instead of looking at the overwhelming statistical evidence that shows reason for concern.

I get people being mad at me for being a buzzkill here, so I'm sorry for that, but meh. It's also frustrating to have this argument in a thread where I was trying to be positive and look for more info.

Manziel absolutely had a limited skill set. He had an average arm at best and had extremely happy feet. He was simply over-hyped because of the crazy plays that he pulled off, but in hindsight a ton of those plays only happened because of terrible decisions to begin with. Here is a clip explaining these very things.

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[Solar7]

Manziel absolutely had a limited skill set. He had an average arm at best and had extremely happy feet. He was simply over-hyped because of the crazy plays that he pulled off, but in hindsight a ton of those plays only happened because of terrible decisions to begin with. Here is a clip explaining these very things.

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Same system, a guy working in his talented offense, but still a good enough player to get a Heisman. Under our coach's tutelage.

Also, "Strong Opinion Sports" is one of these YouTube profiles to generate clicks and ad revenue based on hot takes. The dude's thumbnails are the same as the kids who have toy unboxing videos or Fortnite *shock* videos. It's poor analysis, based on bad players. Just because someone put a frustrated picture of themselves next to basic zone defense doesn't mean they're right.

The internet's gonna kill me, and it's what I do for a living.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Same system, a guy working in his talented offense, but still a good enough player to get a Heisman. Under our coach's tutelage.

Also, "Strong Opinion Sports" is one of these YouTube profiles to generate clicks and ad revenue based on hot takes. The dude's thumbnails are the same as the kids who have toy unboxing videos or Fortnite *shock* videos. It's poor analysis, based on bad players. Just because someone put a frustrated picture of themselves next to basic zone defense doesn't mean they're right.

The internet's gonna kill me, and it's what I do for a living.

Okay so now it's it's just click bait if it doesn't fit your narrative?

Regardless my point wasn't to suggest that his opinion was somehow fact, but to show that these things are out there about Manziel. Also this guy does not only do videos of bad players nor are his videos always negative. In no way is his channel just about hot takes and getting clicks. If you take a few minutes to actually watch his videos I think you would recognize just that.

 

[Solar7]

Okay so now it's it's just click bait if it doesn't fit your narrative?

Regardless my point wasn't to suggest that his opinion was somehow fact, but to show that these things are out there about Manziel. Also this guy does not only do videos of bad players nor are his videos always negative. In no way is his channel just about hot takes and getting clicks. If you take a few minutes to actually watch his videos I think you would recognize just that.

Nope, it's not about narrative. He's got valid points. I'll back off again.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Okay so now it's it's just click bait if it doesn't fit your narrative?

Regardless my point wasn't to suggest that his opinion was somehow fact, but to show that these things are out there about Manziel. Also this guy does not only do videos of bad players nor are his videos always negative. In no way is his channel just about hot takes and getting clicks. If you take a few minutes to actually watch his videos I think you would recognize just that.

Hes actually been on a small college roster as a QB.

He has mostly solid takes from what I've seen.

 

[cardpa]

Solar,

We filled our OL with 2 quality starters, snagged a young guy with LT potential. Completely revamped our WR corps. Upgraded our TE position. Found a quality starter at DE, drafted a high motor/productive youngster at DE, don't sleep on Dogbe either, that kid has a non-stop motor too...swapped Golden for T-Sizzle, legit ILB (with risk WRT injury) committed highway robbery in terms of talent in the defensive backfield, yes losing P2 for 6 games sucks, but we clearly are more talented...

Wow...I mean besides bringing in HOF'ers, what else could they have done? I think we knocked the draft out of the park and we were smart in free agency.

Who are these quality starters you speak of?

 

[cardpa]

Solar,

Those are fair points:

-I agree, there is a LOT of work to do on the line. I would have loved to sign a young, pro bowl caliber LT...but we didn't, we have a finite cap, we worked well within it. The Air Raid gets the ball out early and we have a QB who can run...hopefully that offsets the overall lack of talent -hopefully the coaching staff can develop this group-

-Couldn't disagree more on Suggs. Suggs, played in every game last year and was still very productive without being the focal point of the defense. *Suggs 7 sacks in 16 games vs Golden's 2.5 in 11 games...

-the other ILB is a concern, hopefully Reddick develops.

-Failed college HC? He had prolific offenses and his QB development has been amazing...Yes, the defense sucked, but you try recruiting kids to come to Lubbock vice the other teams in the Big 12.

I think we have the right people in place to do something special, if -IF- afforded the time to do it...

Failed college coach is what I would call his record. If he was successful he would still be the HC at Texas Tech. 35-40 record in six years at TT. The argument of recruiting kids to TT doesn't hold water as both of his predecessors were wining coaches there, Mike Leach 2000-2009 (84-43) and Tommy Tuberville 2010-2012 (20-17).

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference)
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
2013 Texas Tech 8–5 4–5 6th W Holiday
2014 Texas Tech 4–8 2–7 8th
2015 Texas Tech 7–6 4–5 T–5th L Texas
2016 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–6th
2017 Texas Tech 6–7 3–6 8th L Birmingham
2018 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–7th
Texas Tech: 35–40 19–35
Total: 35–40

 

[Krangodnzr]

Failed college coach is what I would call his record. If he was successful he would still be the HC at Texas Tech. 35-40 record in six years at TT. The argument of recruiting kids to TT doesn't hold water as both of his predecessors were wining coaches there, Mike Leach 2000-2009 (84-43) and Tommy Tuberville 2010-2012 (20-17).

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference)
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
2013 Texas Tech 8–5 4–5 6th W Holiday
2014 Texas Tech 4–8 2–7 8th
2015 Texas Tech 7–6 4–5 T–5th L Texas
2016 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–6th
2017 Texas Tech 6–7 3–6 8th L Birmingham
2018 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–7th
Texas Tech: 35–40 19–35
Total: 35–40

Mike Leachs offenses took the Big 12 by storm, but I think by the time KK got to TT, the Big 12 had adjusted to the Air Raid and quite a few run a variation of the system themselves.

By then, KK couldn't just out score running game and defense oriented teams, which is the type of teams Leach faced at Texas Tech.

 

[The Kraken]

Who are these quality starters you speak of?

Sweazy and Gilbert, who I am sure are not up to YOUR standards...

 

[The Kraken]

Failed college coach is what I would call his record. If he was successful he would still be the HC at Texas Tech. 35-40 record in six years at TT. The argument of recruiting kids to TT doesn't hold water as both of his predecessors were wining coaches there, Mike Leach 2000-2009 (84-43) and Tommy Tuberville 2010-2012 (20-17).

Texas Tech Red Raiders (Big 12 Conference)
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
2013 Texas Tech 8–5 4–5 6th W Holiday
2014 Texas Tech 4–8 2–7 8th
2015 Texas Tech 7–6 4–5 T–5th L Texas
2016 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–6th
2017 Texas Tech 6–7 3–6 8th L Birmingham
2018 Texas Tech 5–7 3–6 T–7th
Texas Tech: 35–40 19–35
Total: 35–40

LOL...If you cannot see that competing with UT, T A&M, Baylor, and TCU (just the Texas schools) isn't problematic, then you need to visit Lubbock. We did, my son looked at TT, he could not see himself on that campus and the surrounding city...it was quickly marked off the list.

 

[Krangodnzr]

LOL...If you cannot see that competing with UT, T A&M, Baylor, and TCU (just the Texas schools) isn't problematic, then you need to visit Lubbock. We did, my son looked at TT, he could not see himself on that campus and the surrounding city...it was quickly marked off the list.

That's not too mention that TCU and Baylor, and to a lesser extent SMU, all got significantly better after Mike Leach left.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Manziel did not have a "limited skillset." He one-upped his performance the next year, when Kingsbury was gone. He had some off-the-field issues, but the kid still had it all there "on tape," as I keep getting reminded.

I have already shown that analytics hated Manziel coming out. People had this argument two months ago and I trounced it

 

[Solar7]

I have already shown that analytics hated Manziel coming out. People had this argument two months ago and I trounced it

Fine, your "advanced analytics" showed it, but the truth of the matter is, he statistically improved upon his performance with KK out of the picture. That's really all that matters. The point is, Manziel's college success didn't correlate with Kingsbury's coaching, which is the point that was originally being made.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And Solar it's getting pretty tiresome to see you in EVERY thread that has anything to do with the current state of the team rehashing the same tired arguments from 3 months ago.

Any news from OTA that is remotely positive and you just have to run in and just try to pick a fight with pretty much anyone who has anything to say.

While you might be the current Grinch of ASFN, let other people have just a bit of hope before the regular season comes

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And Solar it's getting pretty tiresome to see you in EVERY thread that has anything to do with the current state of the team rehashing the same tired arguments from 3 months ago.

Any news from OTA that is remotely positive and you just have to run in and just try to pick a fight with pretty much anyone who has anything to say.

While you might be the current Grinch of ASFN, let other people have just a bit of hope before the regular season comes

And to be 100% clear I am not speaking to you as a mod but as someone who likes reading the board.

You can keep on doing this if you feel it is somehow necessary but it really comes across like you have some giant axe to grind right now

 

[Russ Smith]

Solar,

No one is saying he will NOT have to throw into tight windows, but if you think ANY DC is going to run straight man to man coverage scheme you are crazy.

If you haven't done any research on how the Air Raid takes advantage of schemes I recommend you do.

Check out "H Stick", it is a staple of the Air Raid and has been integrated into the NFL for years (it is sometimes "Y" stick). The play is completely predicated on how the defense reacts to the H running a stick route into the softest area determined by the coverage. The play is designed to either flood the zone and the QB throws to the most open man -or- in man, creates match up issues *usually with the RB circling out of the backfield matched up against an LBer.

I think you are missing a huge point here, yes, OU had a monster team, yes, a lot of those plays were 100% set up by superior athleticism, but the Air Raid's roots were born in smaller schools who did NOT have the athletes to compete with the big schools using a superior concept and exploiting what the D gives.

It's not even the Air Raid with the man to man. I said this pre drafting Kyler, one of the advantages of a QB like Murray is that you can't consistenly play man against him because if you do, he'll take off and run for first downs over and over. DB's playing man have a much harder time turning and defending the run they're not in a spot they're covering a man.

Add in the removing a defender to account for the QB running, which is less common in the NFL but still happens, and you tend to see better run games when the QB can run.

My concern with running QB's is always injury, but the advantages are obvious too. Now the concern is say it's CK with the 49ers, teams started playing strictly zone against him and playing contain not pass rush, keep him in the pocket make him throw. That's why his career went South so fast IMO. He couldn't read a defense to save his life, once teams started scheming to take away his first or 2nd option and would not let him run easily, he was a sitting duck.

Murray hasn't really played enough to know, everyone says he can read a defense but he didnt' really have to in college. Now I also think K2's offense is familiar to him and it's designed by scheme to get mismatches, even against zones.

 

[Solar7]

And Solar it's getting pretty tiresome to see you in EVERY thread that has anything to do with the current state of the team rehashing the same tired arguments from 3 months ago.

Any news from OTA that is remotely positive and you just have to run in and just try to pick a fight with pretty much anyone who has anything to say.

While you might be the current Grinch of ASFN, let other people have just a bit of hope before the regular season comes

I mean, pardon me, but I made the thread looking for more research on his throwing motion, got yelled at for not being positive enough, leave it alone for weeks, and b8rtm8nn bumps it finally with some info I'm asking for, I say thanks, and Krang and yourself swoop in to play the Kyler positivity club angle again. I see it totally different.

Am I mucking up the OTAs thread by complaining every time someone posts about Kyler? No. Am I seeing Krang in other threads immediately come to Kyler's defense any time someone says something bad, whether it's me or not? Yeah.

I think you're misconstruing how often I bring up Kyler or poo-poo someone for saying anything positive - I just perk up and start feeling the need to resurface the argument anytime someone says "well actually..." and proceeds to bring up "reasons" that Kyler can't possibly have any flaw despite being a rookie who hasn't played a down in the NFL.

Then there's stuff like the team's record, which I'm sorry, I just can't participate in in a positive way, because our schedule is brutal and team is bad. But you're basically just asking me to only participate positively or not at all. I know it's not being said as a mod, but come on, don't pretend this is a thread I just knocked off the rails to diss Kyler.

 

[Solar7]

Hell, in a nearly 200 reply thread about OTAs, I have like one reply, and it's saying "I'm warming to Kyler."

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/this-weeks-otas.308226/

 

[Goldfield]

Just stop and go troll another team. If you hate everything go away

 

[Solar7]

Just stop and go troll another team. If you hate everything go away

Can we stop with the "you're not a fan" BS?

I don't like what's happening this offseason. When football is played, I will root for them to win.

 

[Ronin]

Can we stop with the "you're not a fan" BS?

I don't like what's happening this offseason. When football is played, I will root for them to win.

I believe that you are a fan.

I also believe that you hate everything that the Cardinals have done this off season. I have yet to see you actually like an off season move.

Not trying to jump all over you but that is my 2 cents.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Can we stop with the "you're not a fan" BS?

I don't like what's happening this offseason. When football is played, I will root for them to win.

You are fine bro..... Just keep on keeping on.

Only two words I would add is: Be Nice.

 

[cardpa]

LOL...If you cannot see that competing with UT, T A&M, Baylor, and TCU (just the Texas schools) isn't problematic, then you need to visit Lubbock. We did, my son looked at TT, he could not see himself on that campus and the surrounding city...it was quickly marked off the list.

So what you are stating is Lubbock was not an attractive or viable place that recruits wanted to go to. Also sounds like the campus was not exactly a pull for recruits either.

That's not too mention that TCU and Baylor, and to a lesser extent SMU, all got significantly better after Mike Leach left.

Now you are stating that Lubbock was an attractive place to go until Mike Leach left. So which is it? It can't be both. With all those other choices why would recruits go to TT even with Leach there?

 

[cardpa]

Sweazy and Gilbert, who I am sure are not up to YOUR standards...

Sweezy posted a 45.7 overall grade, among one of the worst-graded guards in 2018. You must have low standards.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Now you are stating that Lubbock was an attractive place to go until Mike Leach left. So which is it? It can't be both. With all those other choices why would recruits go to TT even with Leach there?

LOL

There are OTHER alternatives which you clearly arent understanding. My point is that the scheme took the Big 12 by storm. Mike Leach was winning with 2 star and 3 star recruits by throwing exotic schemes that the Baylors, TCUs, and other weaker team couldn't deal with.

Fast forward a decade and now the Big 12 runs the Air Raid or derivatives. Texas Tech has to contend with an entire league of teams vying to score 35 points a game. Leach likely wouldnt have nearly the same success since everyone runs his system now.