Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
I was blown away by this fact:
Murray had the highest YPA in the history of college football. EVER. Pretty amazing.
Murray had the highest YPA in the history of college football. EVER. Pretty amazing.
Kyler Murray's Throwing Motion
- Thread starter Solar7
- Start date
I mentioned this pre draft and it was roundly ignored by the naysayers. It became "But what will happen when he has them batted down? How will he survive mentally?"
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Solar7
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And what will happen when his receivers aren't 5 yards past the defensive back on every play?
I have no doubt in Kyler's ability to sling it when the receiver has space. I still haven't seen a ton of throws to contested receivers. Not saying he can't do it, but I haven't seen it.
The Kraken
Veteran
That means they are playing tight man, that means Kyler can tuck the ball and rip off huge chunks of yardage.
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Solar7
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Or it means they're covered.
Please stop with the "Kyler has a magical solution to every problem and is automatically an unstoppable QB" stuff. Kyler, like every other QB who has played the game, is going to have to throw into tight windows. He is going to have periods of time where his guys are both covered and running lanes are closed off. Even everyone's favorite comp, Russell Wilson, experiences this.
The Kraken
Veteran
Solar,
No one is saying he will NOT have to throw into tight windows, but if you think ANY DC is going to run straight man to man coverage scheme you are crazy.
If you haven't done any research on how the Air Raid takes advantage of schemes I recommend you do.
Check out "H Stick", it is a staple of the Air Raid and has been integrated into the NFL for years (it is sometimes "Y" stick). The play is completely predicated on how the defense reacts to the H running a stick route into the softest area determined by the coverage. The play is designed to either flood the zone and the QB throws to the most open man -or- in man, creates match up issues *usually with the RB circling out of the backfield matched up against an LBer.
I think you are missing a huge point here, yes, OU had a monster team, yes, a lot of those plays were 100% set up by superior athleticism, but the Air Raid's roots were born in smaller schools who did NOT have the athletes to compete with the big schools using a superior concept and exploiting what the D gives.
No one is saying he will NOT have to throw into tight windows, but if you think ANY DC is going to run straight man to man coverage scheme you are crazy.
If you haven't done any research on how the Air Raid takes advantage of schemes I recommend you do.
Check out "H Stick", it is a staple of the Air Raid and has been integrated into the NFL for years (it is sometimes "Y" stick). The play is completely predicated on how the defense reacts to the H running a stick route into the softest area determined by the coverage. The play is designed to either flood the zone and the QB throws to the most open man -or- in man, creates match up issues *usually with the RB circling out of the backfield matched up against an LBer.
I think you are missing a huge point here, yes, OU had a monster team, yes, a lot of those plays were 100% set up by superior athleticism, but the Air Raid's roots were born in smaller schools who did NOT have the athletes to compete with the big schools using a superior concept and exploiting what the D gives.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
It's funny but the monster talent argument wasnt used against Mayfield last year, and as the OU fans on here pointed out, Mayfield had even better talent to work with.
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Solar7
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I'm not questioning the validity of the Air Raid. I'm questioning how Kyler's YPA is going to translate to the NFL, where Kyler's #1 receiver doesn't have Hollywood Brown speed. Can Kyler out the ball in the right spot for Larry when the corner is running in lockstep with him? That's what I don't know and question.
Go back and find a thread where I'm gaga for Mayfield. Because you won't. I thought he deserved to be picked as one of the top 4 QBs, but you won't find a thread where I claim he's the best of the bunch. I still think the dude is gonna run into a lot of trouble this year.
And what if he eats pork on Friday?
What if he drives 5 miles an hour above the speed limit?
What if he wears clothing worn of two types of materials?
What if he doesn't eat his meat? How will he get his pudding?
How did any QB ever go from open receivers in college to the NFL? How do receivers ever get open in the NFL?
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
And you'll be wrong about Baker again. Dude is going to be a top 5 QB for a long time.
Watch tape on QBs, dont get caught up in the nonsense
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
It takes a bit of looking but there are plenty of throws last year by Murray into tight windows.
Just like Cardinals receivers are saying now, Murray is really good at ball placement.
I just hate this debate tactic of "What If?" and suddenly "Success is bad"
It's taking a conclusion and trying to find suppositions to support it rather than taking questions and trying to find a conclusion.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
Just to complicate matters, it sounds like Rosen’s throwing motion isn’t doing him any good in Miami. Anyway, so yeah.
The Kraken
Veteran
If you believe in the Air Raid concept, then you believe you scheme players open. There is NOTHING that I have witnessed that would lead me to believe that KM cannot read the play as it develops, make a good decision, and deliver the ball on target.
Yes, I am sure OU and KM enjoyed Brown streaking past backs on a 9 route, but do not sell our WRs short. Isabella, White (if healthy) have that kind of speed and quickness. Kirk and Fitz are more than capable of getting separation
either with Kirk's quickness or Larry's technical mastery.
There is an awful lot to be cautiously optimistic about regarding our offense, of course, there is a lot of risk too, but to wake up every morning with that kind of pessimism is crazy...
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Solar7
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I've watched enough college tape to be wowed by guys who throw amazing balls in tight windows in the college game. I've watched enough college tape to also see guys throw to wide open receivers and look good for it.
I don't dislike Baker, I just wasn't enamored with him, and think that team has a lot of superstar talent that could start pointing fingers when things don't gel right. Baker's a passionate guy, which could hurt if OBJ starts going nuts or whatever.
You can't just "watch tape" in a vacuum. The league is full of ultra-athletic guys who can't cut it mentally once everyone on the field is just as athletic.
Kyler has left these questions open. I'm asking questions to try to match everyone's hype around here, because it doesn't pop out to me like it does to you guys. Obviously I have too much free time on my hands to keep caring, but I'd love to be on the hype train.
The only time Kyler's really made the hair on my arms stand up is with that "look at the speed" 63-yard run. That's next level. The other stuff makes me wonder. I just feel like he had it so easy. It's like everyone else on the field is standing out to me when I watch tape of him, and he's just executing where he needs to for them to make plays.
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Solar7
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After a year where we were the worst team in the league, and I don't think we did a ton to make ourselves better, that pessimism is hard for me to shake. To me, this offseason has had all of the excitement of getting to the car rental place and finding out your rental has been upgraded from a compact to a mid-size.
...Okay, cool, I guess?
The Kraken
Veteran
Solar,
We filled our OL with 2 quality starters, snagged a young guy with LT potential. Completely revamped our WR corps. Upgraded our TE position. Found a quality starter at DE, drafted a high motor/productive youngster at DE, don't sleep on Dogbe either, that kid has a non-stop motor too...swapped Golden for T-Sizzle, legit ILB (with risk WRT injury) committed highway robbery in terms of talent in the defensive backfield, yes losing P2 for 6 games sucks, but we clearly are more talented...
Wow...I mean besides bringing in HOF'ers, what else could they have done? I think we knocked the draft out of the park and we were smart in free agency.
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Solar7
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The OL is still a huge question mark... I'm not going to get too wowed by the additions of the two guys we picked up until they actually stay on the field and play well. Our WR corps is revamped, which I'm happy about, but rookies tend to take 1-2 years to really get it and start to have an impact. I like our moves at DE, don't consider Suggs to be much of an upgrade or reliable for a full season at this age, like the ILB but think we have a huge hole at the other ILB position. Missing P2 will hurt a lot in our most winnable stretch of the season. Plus the defense will take time to adapt to Joseph's system, which is always the case.
The worst parts of the offseason are the signing of a failed college HC, and the overdrafting of a historically small QB with a limited sample size. Those two elements, removing the exact names from the discussion, would have made everyone turn up their nose in disgust if I had told that to you at any time in your Cardinals fandom.
The Kraken
Veteran
Solar,
Those are fair points:
-I agree, there is a LOT of work to do on the line. I would have loved to sign a young, pro bowl caliber LT...but we didn't, we have a finite cap, we worked well within it. The Air Raid gets the ball out early and we have a QB who can run...hopefully that offsets the overall lack of talent -hopefully the coaching staff can develop this group-
-Couldn't disagree more on Suggs. Suggs, played in every game last year and was still very productive without being the focal point of the defense. *Suggs 7 sacks in 16 games vs Golden's 2.5 in 11 games...
-the other ILB is a concern, hopefully Reddick develops.
-Failed college HC? He had prolific offenses and his QB development has been amazing...Yes, the defense sucked, but you try recruiting kids to come to Lubbock vice the other teams in the Big 12.
I think we have the right people in place to do something special, if -IF- afforded the time to do it...
Those are fair points:
-I agree, there is a LOT of work to do on the line. I would have loved to sign a young, pro bowl caliber LT...but we didn't, we have a finite cap, we worked well within it. The Air Raid gets the ball out early and we have a QB who can run...hopefully that offsets the overall lack of talent -hopefully the coaching staff can develop this group-
-Couldn't disagree more on Suggs. Suggs, played in every game last year and was still very productive without being the focal point of the defense. *Suggs 7 sacks in 16 games vs Golden's 2.5 in 11 games...
-the other ILB is a concern, hopefully Reddick develops.
-Failed college HC? He had prolific offenses and his QB development has been amazing...Yes, the defense sucked, but you try recruiting kids to come to Lubbock vice the other teams in the Big 12.
I think we have the right people in place to do something special, if -IF- afforded the time to do it...
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Solar7
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As far as Suggs goes, I'm excited to have him here. I love the dude. I went to ASU, I've met him, he's a good guy, I just know at some point the wheels are going to fall off. He's had multiple season ending injuries and while he was productive last season, that's in a defense he's been a part of for years. He's 36, will be 37 in October, and most players just don't play at that high of a level at that age. I thought the move was real savvy when I was hoping he'd be a mentor to Nick Bosa and split time at the position. Now if things start to slip, we have... Brooks Reed? And next offseason, that's going to be a gaping hole to replace, where before we had two decent pass rushers on the outside that were reasonably young.
Like, that's another thing... we're a year away from needing to fill some of the key positions on this roster all over again. LT, OLB, and ILB are going to be major needs next year.
As far as KK goes... you get fired from your alma mater and don't even get poached from being an NFL OC, but a college OC? The man's never coached a down in the NFL. If he suddenly proves success, this will be a huge outlier. It's not impossible, I like some of his approach, but he doesn't inspire a ton of optimism.
The same coach who made Johny Manziel a Heisman trophy winner in his freshman and a qb whose only an inch shorter than Wilson who is now about the same weight. Cam Newton had fewer attempts than Kyler in college and wasn't he MVP? in the NFL??
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Solar7
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Credit to you for going all over the board with this one and not actually having a cohesive argument.
Manziel - a complete NFL failure, so I'm not sure you want to make the comp.
Wilson - "they're similar in height so it means Kyler must be a success!" Let's purely disregard Russ's clear, proven success over multiple years in college, and that he was a low-risk 3rd round draft pick, not #1 overall.
Cam Newton - besides the color of their skin and one year of play, these two are barely anything alike.
If Kingsbury's success with Manziel, Mahomes, etc. was so wonderful and will translate into wins, why wasn't he picked up by another college program to be HC, not become USC's OC?
Credit for you going overboard with your “criticisms” and moving goalposts every single post about KM.
The POINT was that KK made Manziel from a incompetent qb to a competent QB and used their limited skillset to win games.
YOu said KM was "undersized" yet Wilson was "undersized" as well. Give me a break. WIlson scrambles yet never misses a game. KM bulked up and he is about the same weight as he is. SO he is NO LONGER considered undersized.
You said he has a limited sample size so I will STILL keep giving qb's that are a success in the NFL like Cam and Trubisky until you get it. Because you have no sensible counters to it except for skillset in which those two aforementioned play nothing alike. Repetition is the best way to learn.
PACardsFan
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Manziel was an NFL failure because of his mental issues, not QB attributes. Wilson is the closest comparison you can make to Murray, but Murray has a stronger arm, is faster, and more athletic. So, if you like Wilson, then you'll love Kyler. Vacard's only comparison to Newton was in his number of college passing attempts. Newton is physically imposing, but his size only put a bigger bullseye on his back, so his body is now starting to break down. Cam has a strong arm, but his release is long & slow, and his accuracy is no where near as good as Kyler's.
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Solar7
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Manziel did not have a "limited skillset." He one-upped his performance the next year, when Kingsbury was gone. He had some off-the-field issues, but the kid still had it all there "on tape," as I keep getting reminded.
Wilson's undersized. Kyler is even more undersized. Just because Russell Wilson is a moldbreaker doesn't mean Kyler is too. You can not say he's "NO LONGER" undersized, he is the shortest QB ever drafted in the first round. He's undersized and will never change it. If he succeeds, he will again be an exception to the rule. Same with the running argument - great for Russell Wilson. He's a great player. RG3 was not able to succeed this way, nor was Vick, and we're going to see if Deshaun Watson holds up after two ACL tears.
I'm not ready to anoint Trubisky a success... year 1 wasn't very good, year 2 was a "success" in that he was able to play in the Pro Bowl as an alternate, but he's still a distant third to his lower drafted counterparts. You have Trubisky and Cam, but how about Mark Sanchez?
You're cherrypicking successes instead of looking at the overwhelming statistical evidence that shows reason for concern.
I get people being mad at me for being a buzzkill here, so I'm sorry for that, but meh. It's also frustrating to have this argument in a thread where I was trying to be positive and look for more info.
