Kyler trade proposal

[DaHilg]

Allen had a solid 2nd season where he showed growth from season 1, helped get his team to the playoffs in year 2 and then in season 3,helped the Bill get to to back to back playoff appearances, and EXPLODED as a QB, where he was 2nd team All-Pro, had an MVP level (finished second in MVP voting) AND he took the Bills to the playoffs for a second time where he took them to the AFC title game.

Mahommes set the league on fire from the second he stepped on the field in year 2, won an MVP, got to two Conference Title Games and won a Super Bowl by the end of his third year.

So precedence was set for bonafide, superstars with playoff success. Kyler isn’t that guy after his third season, thus the precedent set by Allen and Mahommes is immaterial to an extension for Kyler right now.

That’s actually not accurate.. Allen was on his way to being a future backup even after his 2nd season. Many including a majority of their fan base never thought he’d fix his accuracy issues. The 20 TD to 9 int ratio that year was quite misleading.. his 58% completion percentage - consistent with being in the 50%’s in both his college and pro careers at the time. Combine that with his actually dipped QBR rating of 49.4 in his second season AND his 0 TD 52% playoff loss… year 3 was make it or break it for the kid.

Prob should look into it before making such an inaccurate assessment.

What Allen did in his 3rd year defied all historical logic for QBs throwing in their 50%.. fixed his accuracy. He still has games where he looks like an absolute dog (Jax last year and reall most of the second half of the season.. btw he had perhaps the most powderpuff schedule in football last year if you noticed).

Guy still turned out his best performances when it mattered most here in 2022 - completely balled out in the playoffs.

 

[Lefty]

Give the Browns a 4th or 5th round pick for Mayfield.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That’s actually not accurate.. Allen was on his way to being a future backup even after his 2nd season. Many including a majority of their fan base never thought he’d fix his accuracy issues. The 20 TD to 9 int ratio that year was quite misleading.. his 58% completion percentage - consistent with being in the 50%’s in both his college and pro careers at the time. Combine that with his actually dipped QBR rating of 49.4 in his second season AND his 0 TD 52% playoff loss… year 3 was make it or break it for the kid.

Prob should look into it before making such an inaccurate assessment.

What Allen did in his 3rd year defied all historical logic for QBs throwing in their 50%.. fixed his accuracy. He still has games where he looks like an absolute dog (Jax last year and reall most of the second half of the season.. btw he had perhaps the most powderpuff schedule in football last year if you noticed).

Guy still turned out his best performances when it mattered most here in 2022 - completely balled out in the playoffs.

Even after his second season, where Allen accounted for 29 TDs and only 11 turnovers… and basically willed the offense to do ANYTHING because he had nothing around him, he was headed towards backup QB?

Sorry, that’s not a serious argument. There were questions about him sure, but he answered them in incredible fashion.

Reality is Allen was looked at as super raw coming out. Then took BIG steps in both his second and third season, which also included big steps TO the postseason in Year 2 and then to the Conference Finals in his 3rd season.

There was an arrow clearly pointed up, sky high after his 3rd year. That’s why he got the deal when he did.

 

[DaHilg]

Even after his second season, where Allen accounted for 29 TDs and only 11 turnovers… and basically willed the offense to do ANYTHING because he had nothing around him, he was headed towards backup QB?

Sorry, that’s not a serious argument. There were questions about him sure, but he answered them in incredible fashion.

Reality is Allen was looked at as super raw coming out. Then took BIG steps in both his second and third season, which also included big steps TO the postseason in Year 2 and then to the Conference Finals in his 3rd season.

There was an arrow clearly pointed up, sky high after his 3rd year. That’s why he got the deal when he did.

49.8% QBR for the season and 58% completion percentage.. he wasn’t willing the Bills to anything in his 2nd year. Those are pathetic numbers. You must not have watched any bills football that year and are simply looking at a misleading TD/int ratio.

 

[SoonerLou]

Allen had a solid 2nd season where he showed growth from season 1, helped get his team to the playoffs in year 2 and then in season 3,helped the Bill get to to back to back playoff appearances, and EXPLODED as a QB, where he was 2nd team All-Pro, had an MVP level (finished second in MVP voting) AND he took the Bills to the playoffs for a second time where he took them to the AFC title game.

Mahommes set the league on fire from the second he stepped on the field in year 2, won an MVP, got to two Conference Title Games and won a Super Bowl by the end of his third year.

So precedence was set for bonafide, superstars with playoff success. Kyler isn’t that guy after his third season, thus the precedent set by Allen and Mahommes is immaterial to an extension for Kyler right now.

This is the revisionist history that takes place when you're a star two years later I guess.

He was 24th in QBR that year. He threw less than 200 yards a game. He wasn't solid. He was below average. Daboll turned chicken crap into chicken salad until Allen was ready that next year.

Imagine that. A QB who wasn't even average went to the playoffs.

Almost like that team was a playoff team that traded up for him a couple of years before.

This isn't to say Kyler deserves those guys' money. He's clearly not as good as those guys today. However, those organizations seemed further along than us as well.

 

[kerouac9]

Allen was a punchline after his second season, bro.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Allen & Mahomes were extended before the start of their 4th seasons, which is exactly where Murray is. Precedence has been set, and Murray & his agent are not out of line asking for the same.

They’re not out of line, but the truth is he is under contract for two more years. It is not technically a contract year or “contract time.”

 

[PACardsFan]

Allen had a solid 2nd season where he showed growth from season 1, helped get his team to the playoffs in year 2 and then in season 3,helped the Bill get to to back to back playoff appearances, and EXPLODED as a QB, where he was 2nd team All-Pro, had an MVP level (finished second in MVP voting) AND he took the Bills to the playoffs for a second time where he took them to the AFC title game.

Mahommes set the league on fire from the second he stepped on the field in year 2, won an MVP, got to two Conference Title Games and won a Super Bowl by the end of his third year.

So precedence was set for bonafide, superstars with playoff success. Kyler isn’t that guy after his third season, thus the precedent set by Allen and Mahommes is immaterial to an extension for Kyler right now.

Being born & raised in NYS, the Bills have always been my 2nd favorite team, so I have followed Josh Allen closely. Let's go ahead & compare them year by year, meaning Allen's 1st year to Murray's 1st year, etc.

YEAR 1
2018 ALLEN / 2074 passing yds / 10 pass tds/12 ints / Completion % - 52.8 / 631 rush yds, 8 rush tds / Bad throw % - 25.7 / Rate 67.9

2019 MURRAY / 3722 passing yds / 20 pass tds - 12 ints / Completion % - 64.4 / 544 rush yds & 4 tds / Bad throw % - 17.9 / Rate 87.4

YEAR 2
2019 ALLEN / 3089 pass yds / 20 pass tds - 9 ints / Completion % - 58.8 / 510 rush yds & 9 tds / Bad throw % - 20.3 / Rate - 85.3

2020 MURRAY / 3971 passing yards / 26 pass tds - 12 ints / Completion % - 67.2 / 819 rush yds & 11 tds / Bad Throw % - 16.8 / Rate 94.3

YEAR 3
2020 ALLEN / 4544 pass yds., 37 tds. - 10 ints / Completion % 69.2 / 421 rush yds & 8 tds / Bad throw % 16.0 / Rate 107.2

2021 MURRAY (Missed 3 games & #1 WR out since week 8) / 3787 pass yds (on pace for 4600 yds), 24 tds., 10 ints / Completion % - 69.2 / 423 rush yds & 5 tds / Bad throw % 14.1 / Rate 100.6

And for the record, Allen's 2021 YEAR 4 numbers dropped off in key areas: Fewer pass yds with 1 less game / Completion % went from 69.2 in 2020 to 63.3 in 2021 / Ints thrown went up from 10 in 2020 to 15 in 2021 / Bad throw % went up from 16.0 to 17.4 / Rate went down from 107.2 to 92.2.

When you average it all out, Murray has outperformed Allen in their short careers. Yes, you can point to Allen's 2020 season as being outstanding, but he fell back in 2021. So what will we see from Allen in 2022? Either way, numbers don't lie & Murray's numbers indicate without a shadow of a doubt that he is one of the best QB's in the NFL. The Cardinal franchise has been a major mess for many, many years. But, I don't think that they're stupid enough to let Murray go anywhere.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Being born & raised in NYS, the Bills have always been my 2nd favorite team, so I have followed Josh Allen closely. Let's go ahead & compare them year by year, meaning Allen's 1st year to Murray's 1st year, etc.

YEAR 1
2018 ALLEN / 2074 passing yds / 10 pass tds/12 ints / Completion % - 52.8 / 631 rush yds, 8 rush tds / Bad throw % - 25.7 / Rate 67.9

2019 MURRAY / 3722 passing yds / 20 pass tds - 12 ints / Completion % - 64.4 / 544 rush yds & 4 tds / Bad throw % - 17.9 / Rate 87.4

YEAR 2
2019 ALLEN / 3089 pass yds / 20 pass tds - 9 ints / Completion % - 58.8 / 510 rush yds & 9 tds / Bad throw % - 20.3 / Rate - 85.3

2020 MURRAY / 3971 passing yards / 26 pass tds - 12 ints / Completion % - 67.2 / 819 rush yds & 11 tds / Bad Throw % - 16.8 / Rate 94.3

YEAR 3
2020 ALLEN / 4544 pass yds., 37 tds. - 10 ints / Completion % 69.2 / 421 rush yds & 8 tds / Bad throw % 16.0 / Rate 107.2

2021 MURRAY (Missed 3 games & #1 WR out since week 8) / 3787 pass yds (on pace for 4600 yds), 24 tds., 10 ints / Completion % - 69.2 / 423 rush yds & 5 tds / Bad throw % 14.1 / Rate 100.6

And for the record, Allen's 2021 YEAR 4 numbers dropped off in key areas: Fewer pass yds with 1 less game / Completion % went from 69.2 in 2020 to 63.3 in 2021 / Ints thrown went up from 10 in 2020 to 15 in 2021 / Bad throw % went up from 16.0 to 17.4 / Rate went down from 107.2 to 92.2.

When you average it all out, Murray has outperformed Allen in their short careers. Yes, you can point to Allen's 2020 season as being outstanding, but he fell back in 2021. So what will we see from Allen in 2022? Either way, numbers don't lie & Murray's numbers indicate without a shadow of a doubt that he is one of the best QB's in the NFL. The Cardinal franchise has been a major mess for many, many years. But, I don't think that they're stupid enough to let Murray go anywhere.

While I’m on the “don’t get rid of murray” side of this conversation I also see two interesting trends:

Murray is consistent. He doesn’t seem to get better or worse from his rookie year. If that’s what he is he’s a top half of the league QB.

Allen clearly trended up from rookie to year 3.

Different three year trajectories.

 

[Finito]

Allen had a solid 2nd season where he showed growth from season 1, helped get his team to the playoffs in year 2 and then in season 3,helped the Bill get to to back to back playoff appearances, and EXPLODED as a QB, where he was 2nd team All-Pro, had an MVP level (finished second in MVP voting) AND he took the Bills to the playoffs for a second time where he took them to the AFC title game.

Mahommes set the league on fire from the second he stepped on the field in year 2, won an MVP, got to two Conference Title Games and won a Super Bowl by the end of his third year.

So precedence was set for bonafide, superstars with playoff success. Kyler isn’t that guy after his third season, thus the precedent set by Allen and Mahommes is immaterial to an extension for Kyler right now.

Right

As it stands right now I have more questions about Kyler than I had after his rookie year. That ain’t good

 

[Cheesebeef]

While I’m on the “don’t get rid of murray” side of this conversation I also see two interesting trends:

Murray is consistent. He doesn’t seem to get better or worse from his rookie year. If that’s what he is he’s a top half of the league QB.

Allen clearly trended up from rookie to year 3.

Different three year trajectories.

This.

And someone just said Murray is one of the best QBs in the NFL? Jesus. The hyperbole on both sides of this issue is ridiculous.

I’m not crazy about signing Murray to a huge deal for a variety of reasons, mostly watching his body break down the second half of back to back seasons and his play suffering along with it (and I won’t even get into his leadership skills or lack thereof after that playoff debacle, ridiculous comments in the Times and passive aggressive social media spat).

But I also see the potential in him, I DONT trust Keim’s drunk ass to be able to ever replace him, thus, I think we can’t afford not to sign him to an extension either. But it’s one that going to happen because of his potential and because this is how the league works.

It ain’t gonna happen solely because of what he’s accomplished so far on the field. And anyone who thinks he’s in the same stratosphere as Mahommes/Allen were after their third seasons is drinking drano.

 

[AzRedbird69]

They're both very good QBs statistically. All you really have to do is watch them play. Allen plays with a lot of heart and guts. When I watch KM play, I think he needs to grow a pair.

 

[PACardsFan]

While I’m on the “don’t get rid of murray” side of this conversation I also see two interesting trends:

Murray is consistent. He doesn’t seem to get better or worse from his rookie year. If that’s what he is he’s a top half of the league QB.

Allen clearly trended up from rookie to year 3.

Different three year trajectories.

Murray clearly improved every year, so I’m not sure what you’re saying when you say he didn’t get better or worse. Even without his WR1 for over half the season, Murray last season was still on pace for 4600 yards if he played all 17 games. And after a phenomenal 3rd season, Allen dropped off in some very important areas in year 4. Significantly lower completion %, far more interceptions, and his passer rating went down 15 points. The point is that if Allen was extended after 3 seasons, surely Murray deserves the same treatment. It‘s not Murray’s fault that the Bills have the better organization with better coaching, a significantly better defense, and more weapons around Allen than what Murray has been given to date. Glad you’re on the side of “don’t get rid of Murray”! I’m not certain if this franchise can ever be a consistent winner, but keeping talent like Murray at least makes it remotely possible.

 

[K1Day1]

To Carolina for 3 #1 picks and Burns. Draft Willis with #6 overall pick. If the trade is after this year's draft, include Darnold in the deal.

My first choice is to negotiate a new contract but I think KM is going to be a problem going forward. He has handled this situation very poorly IMO.

Draft Willis?... Include Darnold? Either start drinking or stop drinking...

 

[Stout]

Allen had a solid 2nd season where he showed growth from season 1, helped get his team to the playoffs in year 2 and then in season 3,helped the Bill get to to back to back playoff appearances, and EXPLODED as a QB, where he was 2nd team All-Pro, had an MVP level (finished second in MVP voting) AND he took the Bills to the playoffs for a second time where he took them to the AFC title game.

Mahommes set the league on fire from the second he stepped on the field in year 2, won an MVP, got to two Conference Title Games and won a Super Bowl by the end of his third year.

So precedence was set for bonafide, superstars with playoff success. Kyler isn’t that guy after his third season, thus the precedent set by Allen and Mahommes is immaterial to an extension for Kyler right now.

Preach.

 

[Stout]

You're absolutely correct. Mahomes looked like absolute trash that day. He was missing 2 OL that day, but had his entire WR group. And his D was at full strength. Murray played with crap guards, his #1 WR was out, and our D couldn't stop Rutgers due to our DL & Secondary being decimated by injuries. And the ones who are so angry will be the 1st in line to eat crow as soon as we play better. I'll accept none of that this year. If you kicked this team & Murray while they were down, don't even dare come back telling us all what a fan you are. I will NOT hear it.

Aside from the fingers in the ears "lalala KM can do no wrong" routine, let's note two things. #1, you get all over posters for being "negative Nancies" but you're totally cool with this offseason after "Murray played with crap guards." Hypocrisy much?

#2, This is laughable. No one gives a damn if you "will NOT have it" because you don't judge anybody's fandom. What a joke.

As a bonus #3, I don't understand why you can't see a single one of KM's negatives. I do understand why you like him and want to keep him. His physical skills are off the charts and he's put up some nice numbers. I get that you'd be willing to live with the flaws in order to try to develop a great young QB prospect, and would be willing to ignore the warts. But to pretend he has no warts? I mean, that's just being oblivious.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Murray clearly improved every year, so I’m not sure what you’re saying when you say he didn’t get better or worse. Even without his WR1 for over half the season, Murray last season was still on pace for 4600 yards if he played all 17 games. And after a phenomenal 3rd season, Allen dropped off in some very important areas in year 4. Significantly lower completion %, far more interceptions, and his passer rating went down 15 points. The point is that if Allen was extended after 3 seasons, surely Murray deserves the same treatment. It‘s not Murray’s fault that the Bills have the better organization with better coaching, a significantly better defense, and more weapons around Allen than what Murray has been given to date. Glad you’re on the side of “don’t get rid of Murray”! I’m not certain if this franchise can ever be a consistent winner, but keeping talent like Murray at least makes it remotely possible.

You can’t count year four when it hadn’t happened yet when Allen got his extension, which is the only relevant benchmark for kyler demanding one now.

And you’re the one that brought up stats. Look at them, across the board Murray’s completion percentage improved, but only in small increments, it wasn’t leaps. The yardage stayed pretty similar even with the excuses. TDs, INTs pretty constant. Rushing went up then down. Overall very similar year to year. That cannot be said of Allen’s numbers.

 

[SoonerLou]

You can’t count year four when it hadn’t happened yet when Allen got his extension, which is the only relevant benchmark for kyler demanding one now.

And you’re the one that brought up stats. Look at them, across the board Murray’s completion percentage improved, but only in small increments, it wasn’t leaps. The yardage stayed pretty similar even with the excuses. TDs, INTs pretty constant. Rushing went up then down. Overall very similar year to year. That cannot be said of Allen’s numbers.

People like @PACardsFan see it as simple as he hurt his shoulder running over a DB in 2020 and Hopkins got hurt in 2021. Maybe its more than that or maybe not.

However, in terms of Allen (if we're judging the 3 year window) he's being rewarded because he was bad to mediocre his 1st two years?

And to be fair. Allen had Diggs the ENTIRE 3rd year.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I mean Kyler had a passer rating of 112 (higher than Allen's 3rd year) before Hopkins's injury.
Edit: Actually its 108. Factoring in the Packers game even with Hopkins was lost for the majority of the game.


Now even if Kyler had Hopkins the full year I don't think he was as good as Allen was that year. Allen was just superly special in 2020. His dip this year would have made that year seem more like an outlier if not for him going GOD mode in the playoffs.

Now its still not good that Kyler's play dipped without Hopkins. So there are legit questions if he can be great. However, Im not a 100% sure if you remove Diggs from the field and give him a slow offense if Allen wouldnt regress as well.


As @Mainstreet said we're maybe in the unfortunate position of not knowing how truly good (or not so good) Kyler is until he's on another team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

People like @PACardsFan see it as simple as he hurt his shoulder running over a DB in 2020 and Hopkins got hurt in 2021. Maybe its more than that or maybe not.

However, in terms of Allen (if we're judging the 3 year window) he's being rewarded because he was bad to mediocre his 1st two years?

And to be fair. Allen had Diggs the ENTIRE 3rd year.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I mean Kyler had a passer rating of 112 (higher than Allen's 3rd year) before Hopkins's injury.
Edit: Actually its 108. Factoring in the Packers game even with Hopkins was lost for the majority of the game.


Now even if Kyler had Hopkins the full year I don't think he was as good as Allen was that year. Allen was just superly special in 2020. His dip this year would have made that year seem more like an outlier if not for him going GOD mode in the playoffs.

Now its still not good that Kyler's play dipped without Hopkins. So there are legit questions if he can be great. However, Im not a 100% sure if you remove Diggs from the field and give him a slow offense if Allen wouldnt regress as well.


As @Mainstreet said we're maybe in the unfortunate position of not knowing how truly good (or not so good) Kyler is until he's on another team.

At best you have Allen with an undeniably fantastic year and playoff run in his third year and a split year by kyler where he looked great and then meh. Doesn’t mean you don’t take into consideration missing nuk, but the size of the drop off for kyler was sizable enough to raise questions. And then the playoffs. And the behavior.

 

[PACardsFan]

Aside from the fingers in the ears "lalala KM can do no wrong" routine, let's note two things. #1, you get all over posters for being "negative Nancies" but you're totally cool with this offseason after "Murray played with crap guards." Hypocrisy much?

#2, This is laughable. No one gives a damn if you "will NOT have it" because you don't judge anybody's fandom. What a joke.

As a bonus #3, I don't understand why you can't see a single one of KM's negatives. I do understand why you like him and want to keep him. His physical skills are off the charts and he's put up some nice numbers. I get that you'd be willing to live with the flaws in order to try to develop a great young QB prospect, and would be willing to ignore the warts. But to pretend he has no warts? I mean, that's just being oblivious.

Your last paragraph is the only applicable one. Who ever said that Murray has no warts??? Murray played 1 year of college & I have always said that he will need to continue to hone his craft. I have always said that EVERY QB needs to continue to improve, and that Murray was no exception. At 24, he has not doubt been immature at times. So what. That’s to be expected. Very few, if any QB’s are a finished product at the ages of 21-24. What I have said is that Murray has been gifted with BOTH a great arm & special legs. In todays NFL, that is truly a blessing. Hell, I spent many Sundays even 50 years ago watching Fran Tarkenton destroy the Cardinals every single time we played them, regardless of whether he was a Giant or Viking. Damn I longed for the day when the Cardinals could have a weapon like that to drive our opposing fans insane. Now we do, and numbskulls on this board can’t recognize what a special weapon we have on OUR STINKING TEAM. Murray has gotten better every year even though we still need to put a lot more weapons around him & PROTECT him better. To not see this is pure insanity. I’m so done listening to the idiotic comments on this board about Murray. Let him go elsewhere & watch him torch the NFL with another team. Sure, that makes perfect sense??? But, I don’t want to hear from people on this board when we go back to the same old Cardinals, and even worse.

 

[SoonerLou]

At best you have Allen with an undeniably fantastic year and playoff run in his third year and a split year by kyler where he looked great and then meh. Doesn’t mean you don’t take into consideration missing nuk, but the size of the drop off for kyler was sizable enough to raise questions. And then the playoffs. And the behavior.

In regards to playoffs. That same defense, Super Bowl champion, made Tom Brady look brutal for 3 Qrts and he still had some Alpha's in Mike Evans and Gronk.

No doubt Kyler end was disappointing/step back. However, as I told @Russ Smith part of me just thinks we ran into a p'od buzzsaw. If we played the Cowboys or even the 49ers Im not sure there is much doom and gloom.

In regards to Allen (comparison) I cant argue behavior. As there have been no issues there with him. Then again it seemed like the behavior was mostly positive until the Rams game (at least media wise). So they did a number on us.

Kyler was a disaster against the Rams. However, I wish Kliff didn't treat that Seahawks game like a preseason game and we're maybe not in this position today.

 

[PACardsFan]

At best you have Allen with an undeniably fantastic year and playoff run in his third year and a split year by kyler where he looked great and then meh. Doesn’t mean you don’t take into consideration missing nuk, but the size of the drop off for kyler was sizable enough to raise questions. And then the playoffs. And the behavior.

“The size of the drop off”. Murray had 2 bad games. And the Lions game was more on KK for not having his ENTIRE team not ready to answer the bell. Every single aspect of our team didn’t show up that day. And given how our D, OL, and secondary played against the Rams, not even Marino, Mahomes, Montana, ALLEN, etc would have fared any better that day without Hop. No one is going to tell me that losing Hop didn’t have a monster effect. And not even our WR Coach expected our WR room to be as ineffective as they were. People in this board need to understand that Murray & Hop are the ONLY true difference makers on this entire team. Take one away & beating the SB champs on their field is no easy task. Take Murray away too & we are 2018 all oVer again. Is that what we want??

 

[PACardsFan]

People like @PACardsFan see it as simple as he hurt his shoulder running over a DB in 2020 and Hopkins got hurt in 2021. Maybe its more than that or maybe not.

However, in terms of Allen (if we're judging the 3 year window) he's being rewarded because he was bad to mediocre his 1st two years?

And to be fair. Allen had Diggs the ENTIRE 3rd year.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I mean Kyler had a passer rating of 112 (higher than Allen's 3rd year) before Hopkins's injury.
Edit: Actually its 108. Factoring in the Packers game even with Hopkins was lost for the majority of the game.


Now even if Kyler had Hopkins the full year I don't think he was as good as Allen was that year. Allen was just superly special in 2020. His dip this year would have made that year seem more like an outlier if not for him going GOD mode in the playoffs.

Now its still not good that Kyler's play dipped without Hopkins. So there are legit questions if he can be great. However, Im not a 100% sure if you remove Diggs from the field and give him a slow offense if Allen wouldnt regress as well.


As @Mainstreet said we're maybe in the unfortunate position of not knowing how truly good (or not so good) Kyler is until he's on another team.

Agree. But, I’m not just blaming our end of season just on Murray’s shoulder or Hop’s knee. People on this board just routinely blame Murray whenever this team underperforms. He & Hop are but 2 starters among 22. Sadly, they are the ONLY 2 real difference makers on our entire roster. We have ZERO difference makers on our D & haven’t had one since PP & Calais back in the Stone Age. Look at how pathetic Mahomes looked like in the SB against TB because he was missing 2 linemen. Hell, the Cardinals played musical chairs on their OL the entire season. Down the stretch the last 2 years, our D routinely got roasted, both against the run & pass. When your playing a D the quality of the Rams D in a playoff game on the road, your D has to help keep you in the game until you can experiment & find something that works. Just look back at the GB/SF playoff games. I hear people on this board praise JG st times. Really? The Niners had under 20 yards of offense the entire 1st half. Jimmy G was horrible. But, their D kept them close & their special teams won the game for them. We have to get out of the habit of holding Murray 100% accountable for every bad game we play. He’s a great player, who like EVERY great NFL QB ever, needs weapons, protection, and a decent defense in order to win BIG games. Hell, Marino was one of the greatest ever, and he got slaughtered in the one SB he was in. Why? Because they couldn’t run the ball in crunch time & their defenses couldn’t hold up in the big games.

 

[JeffGollin]

Cardinal Luck -- We trade him. Then he gets good.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In regards to playoffs. That same defense, Super Bowl champion, made Tom Brady look brutal for 3 Qrts and he still had some Alpha's in Mike Evans and Gronk.

No doubt Kyler end was disappointing/step back. However, as I told @Russ Smith part of me just thinks we ran into a p'od buzzsaw. If we played the Cowboys or even the 49ers Im not sure there is much doom and gloom.

In regards to Allen (comparison) I cant argue behavior. As there have been no issues there with him. Then again it seemed like the behavior was mostly positive until the Rams game (at least media wise). So they did a number on us.

Kyler was a disaster against the Rams. However, I wish Kliff didn't treat that Seahawks game like a preseason game and we're maybe not in this position today.

The behavior thing has been a thing his entire career. Talk of lack of leadership and being aloof and pouting. The board is replete with it. Do I think that’s a killer? No. Does it factor to the kyler conundrum in its entirety - particularly in comp to Allen, you bet it does.