Kyrie

[Errntknght]

I don't want to move Bledsoe for the sake of moving him - like I said before my preference is to keep him but move him to the backup slot. The direct result of that or moving him would be starting Ulis but my actual goal is to get the rest of the players more involved in the offense so they learn to play team basketball instead of standing around watching isio ball.

I do like Ulis' game a lot, and I think he could develop into a top flight PG but this is more about team development. This is a crucial time for our young guys as they are just learning the NBA game. (Incidentally, Ulis seems to be perceived as a weak link on defense but he does a very good job of staying in front of his man and when they do get to the rim they score at a low percentage - .519 - among the leaders for PGs defending at the rim.)

If one looks at the stats that Phraze linked to regarding Booker and Ulis, if you switch to 'per 100 possestions', you see that Booker scores 5.4 more pts/100 with Ulis on the floor
and 4.0 of those points come at the FT line! Meaning Ulis is getting him the ball in better position. I'd like to see similar stats for the rest of the guys though TJ was not himself at the end of the season when Ulis was starting so I'd be surprised if his stats improved. (I don't how to locate stats like that but if someone would enlighten me, I'd check them out.)

 

[Raliu]

Uh didn't cleveland just win the conference finals with an attacking PG?

Do you think Steph Curry is a score first PG or an old school pass first PG? Yup he's a score first PG.

That old school Jason Kidd pass first point guard is a thing of the past just like that lumbering 7 footer who lives in the paint.

Best PG in basketball right now Curry, Irving, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Wall, Lillard, IT. Only Paul would be considered pass first.

Cleveland won conference final with an attacking PG, who has a F takes more ball control and loves to pass more than this attacking PG

Curry won 2 times champ, but he does not attack the rim much, and he always dribble 1.x step less than Kyrie per possession, the 2 factors makes a big difference

No, I'm not a big fan of "traditional, passing 1st PG", I'm with "positionless" basketball trend, but I'm against any player who dribbles many steps and loves to drive from the arc to the rim, this play style is not efficient, is predictable and more defendable, is not durable season/playoff long, waste all the talent the other 4 teammates possess.

 

[Phrazbit]

If one looks at the stats that Phraze linked to regarding Booker and Ulis, if you switch to 'per 100 possestions', you see that Booker scores 5.4 more pts/100 with Ulis on the floor
and 4.0 of those points come at the FT line! Meaning Ulis is getting him the ball in better position. I'd like to see similar stats for the rest of the guys though TJ was not himself at the end of the season when Ulis was starting so I'd be surprised if his stats improved. (I don't how to locate stats like that but if someone would enlighten me, I'd check them out.)

If in scenario one he is shooting a high percentage and in scenario 2 his percentages drop dramatically but hit FT rate goes up... it means the in scenario 2 he is getting better looks? I gotta be honest... that don't make a lick of sense. I don't know how you can contort those stats to reach that conclusion. Occam's razor would lead me to believe that with Bledsoe Booker was getting more opportunities without defenders in his face, with Ulis Booker was taking a bigger load of the offense and he was more often defended closely.

 

[Errntknght]

His FT attempts almost doubled with Ulis on the floor and I take that to mean his defenders were poorly positioned and had to foul to stop him. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Maybe you should watch some tape.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The over valuing of Bledsoe here is staggering. I have posted the stats multiple times but it literally takes Bledsoe and Warren to equal the value add and win shares of Kyrie and Kyrie is still 3 years from hitting his peak efficancy years. Not only is Bledsoe nowhere near as good as Kyrie, this is likely his peak for the next 3 years then he declines.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/kyrie-irving/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/eric-bledsoe/

This is a great comparison and shows how Kyrie is a MUCH better passer and scorer and how they are on completely different tiers

 

[JCSunsfan]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/kyrie-irving/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/eric-bledsoe/

This is a great comparison and shows how Kyrie is a MUCH better passer and scorer and how they are on completely different tiers

I don't know about your interpretation. I WAS of the opinion that Kyrie was a much better player than Bledsoe, but when weighing offense and defense together (on this site), they are pretty close.

Both had a total offensive defensive +/- of +2.2 last year. They are projected to be very similar over the next couple of years, which is all that matters anyway because they both only have contracts for two more years.

Bledsoe gets more assists but turns the ball over more. Wash.
Bledsoe is better in every defensive category.
True shooting percentage is almost exactly the same.
Both are good free throw shooters, Kyrie better.

The only big difference is that Bledsoe is two years older and will decline sooner. Actually, Bledsoe might be a better fit with Booker than Kyrie. I can't believe I am saying this.

Chris. For me, your post had the opposite of your intended effect.

 

[SirStefan32]

I certainly don't overvalue Bledsoe- I've been attacked for years as a "Bledsoe-hater", but I am not sure I would want Kyrie in Phoenix instead of Bledsoe. I think he is the most overrated player in the league, and a terrible fit next to Booker.

 

[elindholm]

Irving is an elite scorer. His .535 eFG% last season was a full 5% higher than Bledsoe's.

But he's not a point guard. If you have the ball in your hands most of the time and have LeBron James and Kevin Love as teammates, you need to average better than 6 assists per game.

I don't buy the artificial distinction between "pass-first" and "scoring" point guards. In today's NBA, everyone has to be a capable scorer. There are lots of ways to create an assist opportunity, and one of those is by threatening to score yourself and then dishing off when the defense reacts. That's potentially a very good way to be a dual offensive threat, and it was the key to Kevin Johnson's game, among others.

But, it's safe to say that Irving has missed a fair number of good assist chances, given his team circumstances. Any competent passer should be able to get more than 6 assists per game playing with James, and James is almost always going to be the best option. So give him the damn ball.

It's much different from Westbrook last season. The rest of the Thunder were incompetent offensively, except sometimes for Oladipo. For Westbrook to pass to an open teammate was often no better than a turnover. And yet he still averaged nearly twice as many assists as Irving.

I haven't watched enough of Irving to know whether his defense is as bad as people say it is. Quantifying defense with advanced stats is difficult and I don't put much faith in those analyses.

I hope the Suns don't get Irving. He's a rich man's Brandon Knight and he'll wear out his welcome very quickly.

 

[Finito]

Oh come on rich mans Brandon Knight lol

 

[SirStefan32]

Just because you have the asset to get a "Star", it doesn't mean you should. Sit and wait. I am hoping it all goes to hell down in New Orleans and Davis ends up needing a new home.Suns need defense and passing. Kyrie provides neither. Suns don't need scoring. They can score just fine.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Just because you have the asset to get a "Star", it doesn't mean you should. Sit and wait. I am hoping it all goes to hell down in New Orleans and Davis ends up needing a new home.Suns need defense and passing. Kyrie provides neither. Suns don't need scoring. They can score just fine.

The Suns ranked 22nd in the league in offensive rating. They can't score just fine. They are also a poor defending team (28th in the league). They need to improve their offensive efficiency significantly.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1

I would love to have Davis too, but hoping he has to be traded at some point is like hoping to win the lottery--its just not realistic. I agree the Suns need defense and passing. But they need offensive effectiveness too. Kyrie provides that. Maybe it is true that Kyrie does not provide that much overall improvement over Bledsoe because of Bledsoe's defense. That is a question that has to be answered and I am sure that it has been asked already in the front office.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Suns ranked 22nd in the league in offensive rating. They can't score just fine. They are also a poor defending team (28th in the league). They need to improve their offensive efficiency significantly.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1

I would love to have Davis too, but hoping he has to be traded at some point is like hoping to win the lottery--its just not realistic. I agree the Suns need defense and passing. But they need offensive effectiveness too. Kyrie provides that. Maybe it is true that Kyrie does not provide that much overall improvement over Bledsoe because of Bledsoe's defense. That is a question that has to be answered and I am sure that it has been asked already in the front office.

The debate remains open if Kyrie even improves us on offense. There is no question that, individually, he is a great offensive player, but in Cleveland their offense went to crap when he was out there without LeBron. If it is one guy jacking up shots and ignoring his teammates (as Kyrie has been prone to do) it rarely makes for great team offensive basketball.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Agree with the last few posts, Kyrie is a GREAT player but bad fit here, doesnt make his teammates better, and he could walk in two years. PASS

I am however in favor of the Suns being a facilitator to get Kyrie elsewhere if it frees up Ullis to start at PG this year and acquire some more picks/assets/bad contracts.

 

[Bert]

Kyrie is a great player, I just dont know how he is going to get here. Isn't Cleveland on the bottom side of the flat earth?

 

[Phrazbit]

Kyrie is a great player, I just dont know how he is going to get here. Isn't Cleveland on the bottom side of the flat earth?

I forgot he is a flat earther...

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kyrie is intriguing. His skill set is known. I am not that much interested in how the Cavs did with and without him on the floor. There are too many other factors. The offense was built for LeBron, not Kyrie. Who was on the floor with him?

The point is that you get your superstar players and then build around them. Kyrie is certainly a superstar (or almost) player. We would have to build around him (and Booker). That would require very versatile defenders at the other three positions. That is why we have to keep Jackson. Bender might be a fit too. He is a versatile defender. We would need to add a mobile rim protector defender to fill out that roster.

Honestly. Booker's one dimensional game is a bit of a liability. He would have to step up his defense.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I forgot he is a flat earther...

The Suns should end trade talks just for that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Suns should end trade talks just for that.

I do not believe he is serious.

 

[Phrazbit]

Kyrie is intriguing. His skill set is known. I am not that much interested in how the Cavs did with and without him on the floor. There are too many other factors. The offense was built for LeBron, not Kyrie. Who was on the floor with him?

The point is that you get your superstar players and then build around them. Kyrie is certainly a superstar (or almost) player. We would have to build around him (and Booker). That would require very versatile defenders at the other three positions. That is why we have to keep Jackson. Bender might be a fit too. He is a versatile defender. We would need to add a mobile rim protector defender to fill out that roster.

Honestly. Booker's one dimensional game is a bit of a liability. He would have to step up his defense.

This has been discussed, but what is your metric for superstar? In my mind Kyrie falls well short. Is Demarr Derozan a superstar? Is Damian Lillard? Is Isaiah Thomas? Those guys put up better stats and their teams don't go to the crapper when they're out there running the show, unlike the Cavs with Kyrie and no LeBron. Irving has one all-NBA 3rd team award as his biggest accolade. He has been an all-star... in the East... he would not be one in the west unless he significantly improved... which seems unlikely.

And if you're already concerned about the 20 year old Booker being too one dimensional then what about Kyrie? He is older and just as one dimensional and plays a position where it is far more important to be versatile than a shooting guard.

Irving is a guard, who can score, he doesn't do anything else really and there are several other guards better than he at scoring and they bring more to the game in other areas. Unless we're granting about 30 guys "superstar" status, then I don't think Irving comes close to the cut.

 

[Phrazbit]

I do not believe he is serious.

If a guy is good enough I'd be fine if he thought the moon was made of cheese and the earth is being balanced on the back of a turtle...

However, I don't think Kyrie is good enough and I also think he is serious.

 

[Finito]

Just stop with the Kyrie didn't win before Lebron.

It's plain stupid. He played what 3 years before Lebron got there. His rookie year and two seasons somebody please tell me the second best player on that Cleveland roster. I mean I just want to know what Cleveland had to work with.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

This has been discussed, but what is your metric for superstar? In my mind Kyrie falls well short. Is Demarr Derozan a superstar? Is Damian Lillard? Is Isaiah Thomas? Those guys put up better stats and their teams don't go to the crapper when they're out there running the show, unlike the Cavs with Kyrie and no LeBron. Irving has one all-NBA 3rd team award as his biggest accolade. He has been an all-star... in the East... he would not be one in the west unless he significantly improved... which seems unlikely.

And if you're already concerned about the 20 year old Booker being too one dimensional then what about Kyrie? He is older and just as one dimensional and plays a position where it is far more important to be versatile than a shooting guard.

Irving is a guard, who can score, he doesn't do anything else really and there are several other guards better than he at scoring and they bring more to the game in other areas. Unless we're granting about 30 guys "superstar" status, then I don't think Irving comes close to the cut.

Since you are comparing top PGs. These PGs all are in the top 10 for PER

Thomas 28, Lillard 27, Wall 26, Westbrook 28, Curry 29, Conley 29, Lowry 31, Walker 27, Irving 25 (24 during last season)

Irving's the youngest on that list and will continue to improve as he hits his age 28 season (PG peak 27-30)

Right now he is just an all star. In 3 years if he follows similar progressions to other elite guards he really will be a superstar.

It's the same reason Booker is untradable at 20.

 

[Sunburn]

Since you are comparing top PGs. These PGs all are in the top 10 for PER

Thomas 28, Lillard 27, Wall 26, Westbrook 28, Curry 29, Conley 29, Lowry 31, Walker 27, Irving 25 (24 during last season)

Irving's the youngest on that list and will continue to improve as he hits his age 28 season (PG peak 27-30)

Right now he is just an all star. In 3 years if he follows similar progressions to other elite guards he really will be a superstar.

It's the same reason Booker is untradable at 20.

Eric Bledsoe is ranked number 11 in PER among point guards. He is 27 years old. Kyrie is ranked number 8 and is 25 years old. You want to give up assets for Kyrie? Surely, those assets would be better used for another purpose, no?

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg