Laker fans begin to worry ; Kobe Quote

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by frdbtr

there is evidence that he raped a girl.

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
i'm guessing that you didn't attend law school. there is evidence that he MAY have committed a rape. nothing more. to say otherwise is slanderous, or, i guess since you've typed that comment, it's libelous.

You quoted him out of context. What he said was:

"So cheating on his wife, and lying about it was not stupid? By the way, the reason that he now has a court date is because the police dept has found enough evidence to prosecute. The reason that the preliminary's have not cleared his name is because the judge (after hearing the evidence) has determined that there is enough evidence to go to trial. This is not a simple "he said/she said" issue. She is not sueing him, the police are prosecuting him because there is evidence that he raped a girl. He may still be cleared but there is definate evidence that he did it."

He was talking about evidence, not guilt. Evidence can be subject to interpretation or explanation and that's what the trial is about.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
I wouldn't want Shaq either since we have Amare. He isn't to Shaq's level yet but who's to say that in a few years he won't be. I just think that Kobe would want to shoot the ball 40 times per game and that would harm Amare's game. I would rather build a team around Amare then sign Kobe, find out that he clashes with our current team and then start all over again building a team around Kobe.

The problem is that you are perpetuating the same viscious circle we've been going through for years--with the exception of a few in the 80s, the same circle we've been going in 35 years.

 

[Chaplin]

Another thing, that may or may not be worth thinking about...

When Kobe came to the Lakers, or at least, broke out with the Lakers, Shaquille was already a superstar, so Kobe was always second fiddle to Shaq. His whole career has been like that.

In Phoenix, Amare isn't good enough yet to eclipse Kobe in that regard. All of a sudden, Kobe Bryant becomes the leader with the chance of actually creating a superstar with his leadership.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The problem is that you are perpetuating the same viscious circle we've been going through for years--with the exception of a few in the 80s, the same circle we've been going in 35 years.

I don't know about thet. Getting Barkley was certainly the kind of deal we are talking about.

As of having Shaq and Amare in the same lineup -- I'd take it in a heartbeat.

 

[frdbtr]

I am trying to avoid that circle by building a team around the most promising young Rookie (until Lebron) to ever come straight from High school into the pro's. Amare could be the most dominant big man in the NBA in a couple of years. Why not build a team around him instead of signing Kobe and then having to rebuild around him.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
I am trying to avoid that circle by building a team around the most promising young Rookie (until Lebron) to ever come straight from High school into the pro's. Amare could be the most dominant big man in the NBA in a couple of years. Why not build a team around him instead of signing Kobe and then having to rebuild around him.

That's the thing--we sign Kobe, we are done "rebuilding". We will pretty much have all our pieces (assuming we are able to at least get a servicable center in the draft). From then on, it'll be all about chemistry and just getting the young players some experience.

If for some miracle we sign Kobe without having to get rid of Shawn, that's even better.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Originally posted by frdbtr

there is evidence that he raped a girl.



You quoted him out of context. What he said was:

"So cheating on his wife, and lying about it was not stupid? By the way, the reason that he now has a court date is because the police dept has found enough evidence to prosecute. The reason that the preliminary's have not cleared his name is because the judge (after hearing the evidence) has determined that there is enough evidence to go to trial. This is not a simple "he said/she said" issue. She is not sueing him, the police are prosecuting him because there is evidence that he raped a girl. He may still be cleared but there is definate evidence that he did it."

He was talking about evidence, not guilt. Evidence can be subject to interpretation or explanation and that's what the trial is about.

it's not really a misquote. he said two different things. first he said the court found enough evidence to allow the case to go to trial. i agree with that. then he said the police had evidence that he raped the girl. i took umbrage with that.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That's the thing--we sign Kobe, we are done "rebuilding". We will pretty much have all our pieces (assuming we are able to at least get a servicable center in the draft). From then on, it'll be all about chemistry and just getting the young players some experience.

If for some miracle we sign Kobe without having to get rid of Shawn, that's even better.

My whole point has been, in this thread, that if we sign Kobe he is a "Me first" player and will complain if Amare gets as many touches as he does. If this happens then we will have to make a decision. Stick with Amare or Trade him and bring in a bunch of players to compliment Kobe's style. That is the rebuilding that I am saying is a possibility if we signed a selfish player like Kobe.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
it's not really a misquote. he said two different things. first he said the court found enough evidence to allow the case to go to trial. i agree with that. then he said the police had evidence that he raped the girl. i took umbrage with that.

That is what evidence is. They didn't find evidence that he stole a car. they found evidence that he had raped that girl and that is why they prosecuted.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by frdbtr
That is what evidence is. They didn't find evidence that he stole a car. they found evidence that he had raped that girl and that is why they prosecuted.

technically, "evidence" is any matter of PROOF, or PROBATIVE MATTER offered in PROOF of an alleged fact or proposition. that's why i insist on people saying "evidence that he MAY have raped the girl." sorry, the attorney in me drives me to split hairs thusly.

 

[frdbtr]

I am done with this discussion. I have reiterated the same points over and over. I am going to agree to disagree with y'all and just leave it at that. I wouldn't have started up this discussion again if billy the kid hadn't called me stupid. Just one more reiteration of a point. I will root for the Suns no matter what. I don't think that Kobe is a bad player, I just think that he would not be good for the chemestry that the Suns are trying to build.

 

[elindholm]

I'm with Chaplin on the O'Neal/Bryant discussion. For me it's not even close between the two. O'Neal has recurring health problems, his motivation is inconsistent, and he's never really shown the hunger to be the best. Because he is so huge, he can dominate a game when permitted to run over people. And he does have some other skills. But basically, in terms of basketball ability, I don't think he's near Bryant's level.

Also, O'Neal has, I'd guess, a maximum of three really good years left. His numbers have been in decline since at least the 2001-02 season (I haven't looked back farther than that), and while some of this year's decline can be attributed to the additions of Malone and Payton, not all can be. I don't have any confidence that he'd be able to win another title on his own, by which I mean -- among other things -- without the assistance of big-market-influenced officiating.

It's moot because O'Neal makes something like $30 million a season, but even for a "mere" $10-12 million I don't think I'd want him on the current Suns squad.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That's the thing--we sign Kobe, we are done "rebuilding". We will pretty much have all our pieces (assuming we are able to at least get a servicable center in the draft).

Can they get a servicable center in the draft? It makes a big difference because the Jazz proved how having a stiff at the #5 can short curcuit their prospects.

Everybody in this year's draft looks like a project - ie maybe in three years they will be really good. This kid Howard could be the next Amare - SOMEDAY, but he is at least 20 pounds lighter than Stoudemire was and Amare is not a long range solution at center.

This is part of the reason I am so anxious to see how much potential Lampe has. If this kid is as good as the draft reports indicated, he could be the future of the team at center. It would be great to go into the draft and just take the best player rather than worrying about needs.

One concern I have is that if the team does not get to the elite level in a couple more seasons, they will start losing guys to FA. But the key will be to get a better than average center.

If the Suns cannot draft a center, they may have difficulties getting one if they are well over the salary cap.

 

[elindholm]

One concern I have is that if the team does not get to the elite level in a couple more seasons, they will start losing guys to FA.

Like who? Johnson? If he finally gets his act together, he'd be a fool to leave Phoenix; if not, then good riddance. Cabarkapa and Barbosa can't leave before 2007 even if they want to, and everyone else is easily replaced for cheap.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Can they get a servicable center in the draft? It makes a big difference because the Jazz proved how having a stiff at the #5 can short curcuit their prospects.

Everybody in this year's draft looks like a project - ie maybe in three years they will be really good. This kid Howard could be the next Amare - SOMEDAY, but he is at least 20 pounds lighter than Stoudemire was and Amare is not a long range solution at center.

This is part of the reason I am so anxious to see how much potential Lampe has. If this kid is as good as the draft reports indicated, he could be the future of the team at center. It would be great to go into the draft and just take the best player rather than worrying about needs.

One concern I have is that if the team does not get to the elite level in a couple more seasons, they will start losing guys to FA. But the key will be to get a better than average center.

If the Suns cannot draft a center, they may have difficulties getting one if they are well over the salary cap.

To me, it is unrealistic to have a star at every position. JJ has the potential to be pretty good, as does Leandro. The point is, we don't HAVE to draft a star center.

But can a team anchored by Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Kobe Bryant (with Barbosa and say, Jahidi or the equivalent) compete for a championship?

And the answer is, simply, yes. Absolutely. And that's what it's all about, isn't it? Even the business people on the board have to admit that winning a title is the ultimate goal for this team.

 

[slinslin]

However it would be nice to have a center who is good enough to start 82 games.

Maybe Vlade Divac can still be that for next year.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin

But can a team anchored by Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Kobe Bryant (with Barbosa and say, Jahidi or the equivalent) compete for a championship?

The Jahidi that is playing now? I don't think so. As it is now, he is a moderately useful role player, but not a championship center.

I know, the Bulls won with Longley and he's a stiff. Actually, he had some skills as a passer and in shooting short jumpers. Most of all, under the "Jordan Effect", the refs let him get away with murder on defense. Once he came to Phoenix, they stopped letting him mug people and he just fouled out faster than Jahidi.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

I know, the Bulls won with Longley and he's a stiff. Actually, he had some skills as a passer and in shooting short jumpers. Most of all, under the "Jordan Effect", the refs let him get away with murder on defense.

IMO, that's just a cop-out. And one of the reasons people supported the trade for him in the first place.

Shaq was dominate and Kobe was smooth as silk, but they won their championships with little or no supporting cast.

This team, with Amare, Kobe and Shawn would be a lot better than the Lakers team was.

 

[devilalum]

Did anybody ever mention the possibility that Kobe could be found not guilty but then lose a lawsuit kind of like OJ?

Do you really think the Suns want an albatross like that hanging around their neck?

As good as Kobe might be and as good as the Suns might be with him I can't see Colangelo signing him.

He'd look like the biggest hypocrite in the world.

Even if Kobe's found not guilty and wins a lawsuit there will always be people that will think he just got off because he's rich and famous. That stigma would follow the Suns around forever.

The only way I could see the Suns signing Kobe would be if the girl came forward and said, "I made this all up, the sex was completely consentual"

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by devilalum
Did anybody ever mention the possibility that Kobe could be found not guilty but then lose a lawsuit kind of like OJ?

Do you really think the Suns want an albatross like that hanging around their neck?

As good as Kobe might be and as good as the Suns might be with him I can't see Colangelo signing him.

He'd look like the biggest hypocrite in the world.

Even if Kobe's found not guilty and wins a lawsuit there will always be people that will think he just got off because he's rich and famous. That stigma would follow the Suns around forever.

The only way I could see the Suns signing Kobe would be if the girl came forward and said, "I made this all up, the sex was completely consentual"

Another thought, the Nets did not sign Griffin to a long term deal.

I realize that fans are pretty forgiving of athletes if the produce. However, the Colangelos are a lot more cautious after the drug sscandals of the late '80's. Kidd is still convinced they dumped him because of beating his wife.

Everything is a matter of degree. Most local fans would not want Sheed Wallace because of his personal problems even though he is a great talent. But the Colangelos are more senstive to scandal issues. They will need complete vindication and not just "not beyond a reasonable doubt".

 

[Billythekid]

Originally posted by frdbtr
So, in other words, you don't want to make an intelligent argument to disagree with me, you just want to say that i am stupid because I don't think that Kobe would be a good fit on the suns. Now which one of us is stupid. I haven't ever made any personal attacks on this board. Look at all of my points. One of them calls Kobe Stupid but I have evidence to support that statement. If you don't have an intelligent argument, then it is usually a good idea to not argue the fact at all. I don't even know why I am posting this about you. I normally don't get into Intellectual wars with people who are unarmed.

Originally posted by frdbtr
Mainstreet, sorry about this post where I quoted you and then went on to call you some names. My intent was for the billy the kid post that called me stupid for not wanting Kobe. I apoligise for the misunderstanding. however, billy the kid, this post was for you.

Dude, when and what did I call you? Never and Nothing. And I wasn't entering an argument with you. Calling other people names for something I did, now thats stupid Your idea's about Kobe aren't. I just tend to disagree.

My facts for this argument if you wish to get into one is... Kobe Bryant is the best shooting gaurd in the league.... Thats a FACT

So why shouldn't I want the Suns to acquire him?


Please,

Chill the fudge out.