Last Night's Fiasco

[scotsman13]

yea i have watched every single game that has been on national TV also i watched every single suns during the rocky mountian reeve in person.

how about you do you remember the 3rd quarter of game 5? you know the line up that got us back in the game outscored the spurs by 14 during that quarter. what was that lineup? outlaw 6'8", amare 6'10", penny 6'7", marbury 6'3" and marion 6'7". this lineup height is an average of 6'7". so tell me again how the suns havent been successful when they have gone small?

big jake doesnt match up well with the spurs he is to slow to deal with tim or david. when you see the other team with big guys like the kings and lakers then you will see big jake get time until then give Frank johnson some credit. not one person on this board thoguht that the suns would be were they are at the start of the season. heck i thoguht and posted here that i thought they would win 34 games this year and most people were right around that number with me. marbury and marion were both allstars this year amare became the ROY and this team is in the playoffs and is giving one of the best defense teams and the team with the best record and their coach of the year almost all that they can handle and you still cant give FJ some credit then it shows the value of your insight into basketball. this team is doing a great job from top to bottom and they should be give credit for what they have done.

 

[Wally]

See my post on game 6 thread...... I was on the wrong thread when I posted my reply.

 

[NDSunsfan]

so again, everything that happens for the good does so in spite of him and everything bad happens because of him. i guess i didn't know it was that simple. my bad.

brad

 

[elindholm]

He should realize small ball never works in playoffs, especially when he has been with the Suns for 12 years in which they have never won a playoff series with small ball.

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. The Suns have won most of their playoff series with small ball. When they went to the Finals in '93, who got most of the crunch-time minutes at center? Tom Chambers. The money lineup of that team was Chambers, Barkley, Majerle, Kevin Johnson, and whatever other smallish player was having a good day (Ceballos, Dumas, or sometimes Frank Johnson himself). Yes, West started and Miller occasionally got key minutes, but when push came to shove, it was Chambers. So there was one guy at 6' 10", maybe one player at 6' 7", and then no one else over 6' 6". The Suns' current small lineup towers over that bunch of pipsqueaks.

And what was the best lineup of the team that eliminated the Spurs in '00? Robinson, Rogers, Marion, Hardaway, and Johnson. Sometimes Blount was in for defense, but again, that's pretty darn small.

This isn't a defense of small ball, but the unfortunate truth is that the Suns have always been forced into it, because they've never had a center that they could have faith in. Small ball is a symptom of the Suns' problems, not the cause of them.

At least now they have a power forward with decent size. One step at a time.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by scotsman13
yea i have watched every single game that has been on national TV also i watched every single suns during the rocky mountian reeve in person.

how about you do you remember the 3rd quarter of game 5? you know the line up that got us back in the game outscored the spurs by 14 during that quarter. what was that lineup? outlaw 6'8", amare 6'10", penny 6'7", marbury 6'3" and marion 6'7". this lineup height is an average of 6'7". so tell me again how the suns havent been successful when they have gone small?

big jake doesnt match up well with the spurs he is to slow to deal with tim or david. when you see the other team with big guys like the kings and lakers then you will see big jake get time until then give Frank johnson some credit. not one person on this board thoguht that the suns would be were they are at the start of the season. heck i thoguht and posted here that i thought they would win 34 games this year and most people were right around that number with me. marbury and marion were both allstars this year amare became the ROY and this team is in the playoffs and is giving one of the best defense teams and the team with the best record and their coach of the year almost all that they can handle and you still cant give FJ some credit then it shows the value of your insight into basketball. this team is doing a great job from top to bottom and they should be give credit for what they have done.

That lineup was OK because Outlaw is a much better defender and rebounder than say JJ or Jacobson. Read my other post, I included Outlaw as one of 4 "big" guys and have at least 2 of them on the floor at all times. That lineup in the 3rd had Outlaw and Stoudemire.

So far, the small lineup we use most frequently is Marbury, Penny, JJ, Marion and one of our PF or center guarding Duncan,Robinson and Rose. How can u not be out-rebounded?
Marion on Rose is bad enough, then FJ had Jacobson on Rose and Marion on Robinson the other night. Give me a break.

It's kind of funny that you think if FJ stays as head coach long enough, he will eventually carry this team to win a championship. Maybe you will be satisified as long as this team gets into first round of playoff.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by elindholm
He should realize small ball never works in playoffs, especially when he has been with the Suns for 12 years in which they have never won a playoff series with small ball.

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. The Suns have won most of their playoff series with small ball. When they went to the Finals in '93, who got most of the crunch-time minutes at center? Tom Chambers. The money lineup of that team was Chambers, Barkley, Majerle, Kevin Johnson, and whatever other smallish player was having a good day (Ceballos, Dumas, or sometimes Frank Johnson himself). Yes, West started and Miller occasionally got key minutes, but when push came to shove, it was Chambers. So there was one guy at 6' 10", maybe one player at 6' 7", and then no one else over 6' 6". The Suns' current small lineup towers over that bunch of pipsqueaks.

And what was the best lineup of the team that eliminated the Spurs in '00? Robinson, Rogers, Marion, Hardaway, and Johnson. Sometimes Blount was in for defense, but again, that's pretty darn small.

Barkley was the best PF who would get at least 15-20 rebounds at that time. Majerle Celballos and Dumars were legit SG or SF and were considered good rebounder at their position. So Chambers was probably the only player playing out of position at C. But other than Robinson they faced in the second round, LA, SEA and CHI didn't have a big man like Duncan that needs double team.

I don't think Robinson, Rogers,Marion, Hardaway and Johnson is small. They had no choice anyway since they didn't have someone like Big Jake on the bench. It is certainly not as small as Marbury, Hardaway,JJ, Marion and one of PF or C.

 

[scotsman13]

do you know what a switching means? how about trapping? or double teaming? when you do this defenses you can leave someone open or end up have a smaller player guarding a bigger player at times. it is a fact of the defense that thinks like this can happen. there were time when hardaway had ferry guarding him do you think that the spurs dont know that ferry would get eatten alive by penny? are you saying that the nba's coach of the year should be kicked to the side of the road because he let this happen? wake up this is the point of running pick and roles, picks and other offensive planning is to creat a mismatch by forcing the defense to react to you and not for you to react to their defense.

 

[elindholm]

Barkley was the best PF who would get at least 15-20 rebounds at that time.

At least 15-20? You might want to check your stats.

Majerle Celballos and Dumars were legit SG or SF and were considered good rebounder at their position.

Neither Ceballos nor Dumas was a good rebounder. Majerle was okay for a SG, but not good by the standards of SFs. He was also extremely small for a SF.

I don't think Robinson, Rogers,Marion, Hardaway and Johnson is small. They had no choice anyway since they didn't have someone like Big Jake on the bench.

Wasn't Longley available? I know he missed a few games that year, but I'm pretty sure he was on the playoff roster. And if he wasn't, then they had Don MacLean.

You're complaining without knowing the facts. First you said small ball has never worked in the playoffs. That is false. Now you say it has worked, but only because of a variety of vaguely defined special circumstances. Well, maybe ... but isn't hindsight always 20-20?

If the Suns had been eliminated by the Lakers in '93 (as they nearly were), small ball wouldn't have looked too good then. But they survived, so we think of that team as having been good.

 

[scotsman13]

also i am smart enough to think that a year after we were in the lottery that we wont be winning a championship with the high schooler that we drafted.

this team doesnt have a good bench at this time, we have very little play experances on the team and most of our players need time to grow. so if we loose this playoff round i wont think that this year has been a waste of time, i will be thankful for everything that we got done on our road to this point and look forward to next year and the draft.

 

[cheng]

FJ should tell the players NOT to switch if Jacobson would end up on Rose or Marion on Robinson around the basket. Even if it means giving them open shots.

Rose had 13/7 already at half time, what did FJ do to stop Rose cutting to basket during half time?

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by elindholm
Barkley was the best PF who would get at least 15-20 rebounds at that time.

At least 15-20? You might want to check your stats.

Majerle Celballos and Dumars were legit SG or SF and were considered good rebounder at their position.

Neither Ceballos nor Dumas was a good rebounder. Majerle was okay for a SG, but not good by the standards of SFs. He was also extremely small for a SF.

I don't think Robinson, Rogers,Marion, Hardaway and Johnson is small. They had no choice anyway since they didn't have someone like Big Jake on the bench.

Wasn't Longley available? I know he missed a few games that year, but I'm pretty sure he was on the playoff roster. And if he wasn't, then they had Don MacLean.

You're complaining without knowing the facts. First you said small ball has never worked in the playoffs. That is false. Now you say it has worked, but only because of a variety of vaguely defined special circumstances. Well, maybe ... but isn't hindsight always 20-20?

If the Suns had been eliminated by the Lakers in '93 (as they nearly were), small ball wouldn't have looked too good then. But they survived, so we think of that team as having been good.

I don't think the lineups you mentioned were small.

Didn't Ceballos at SF had some 20/9 seasons in his prime? He was known for his offensive rebound skills.

Majerle was definitely a solid rebounder and defender at SG.

Don Maclean? a big man? give me a break. Duncan was injuried during that series, Robinson was getting old and couldn't do much.

 

[elindholm]

Didn't Ceballos at SF had some 20/9 seasons in his prime?

No. His best rebounding year was 8 per game, and that was with the Lakers when they didn't have any players ('94-'95). He never did better than 6.6 rebounds per game as a Sun.

He was known for his offensive rebound skills.

Maybe by you. During his three best years, he was close to 3 offensive rebounds a game, which is a good number, but not exactly something to base reputation on. He hung around the basket for garbage points, but he certainly wasn't what you'd call a tough rebounder.

Don Maclean? a big man? give me a break.

And what makes you so sure we won't be saying the same thing about Tsakalidis in a few years? So far, he hasn't shown much more than MacLean.

First you say you want a center in the game, but now you only want one if he's good? Make up your mind.

Duncan was injuried during that series, Robinson was getting old and couldn't do much.

So what? You're completely changing the point of your argument. We already know that the Suns won the series, so there's no use debating that small ball worked in that case.

In case you have forgotten, your point was:

(Frank Johnson) has been with the Suns for 12 years in which they have never won a playoff series with small ball.

Please explain why you are continuing to defend this.

 

[cheng]

Why? I repeat one more time, the lineups you mentioned to me were not small consider what they played against. You just can't seem to get it.

Since when Don MaClean was a Center? He is 6'9 with some outside touch.

Small ball is relative to what you match up against. Marbury, Penny, JJ, Marion and Stoudemire against Parker, Bowen, Rose, Duncan and Robinson is absolutely too small, but that lineup maybe fine if they play against some eastern conference teams.

 

[elindholm]

I repeat one more time, the lineups you mentioned to me were not small consider what they played against. You just can't seem to get it.

Ah, so now you're saying that "small" is defined relative to the specific opponent. And yet, while you acknowledge that the Suns' lineups in earlier series have been smaller than what the opponent had, you say they haven't been too small, the evidence apparently being that the lineups did not cause the Suns to lose.

In other words, it's okay to play small as long as you still win. Right? That's a far cry from what you said before.

Almost no team in the league can match up with Robinson and Duncan simultaneously. That's why the Spurs are so tough. I agree with you that, so far, it looks like the Suns' small lineup is too small against the Spurs. But we'd feel differently if the Suns were winning.

And frankly, as much as I dislike small ball, I think we'd have to consider this series a success if the Suns are able to extend it to seven games -- even if they end up losing the seventh game. You can talk about the regular-season edge all you want, but the bottom line is that the Spurs are an excellent team. Extending them to seven games would be a great accomplishment for a #8 seed.

Oh, and Don MacLean is listed at 6' 10" on nba.com, and he did indeed see some time at center for the Suns. It's irrelevant, though, since I think Longley was available for the Spurs series.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by elindholm
I repeat one more time, the lineups you mentioned to me were not small consider what they played against. You just can't seem to get it.
In other words, it's okay to play small as long as you still win. Right? That's a far cry from what you said before.

Of course, everyone will be fine if small ball produces wins. But constant small ball hasn't/will not win a 7 game playoff series, that's all what I am saying.

As for MaClaen, be realistic no matter he is 6'9 or 6'10 or 7'1 he is not type of inside player that is going to box out Robinson or rebound like big Jake can.

I do agree with you that the Suns have been forced to play small ball because they didn't have a dominant C or PF since Barkley.

Danny Anige played Johnson, Kidd, Person, Chapman and another forward against SEA and lost in 5. I can't really blame Anige because he had no choice but to play his 5 best players and take the chance.

This year is different, FJ has more options and decided to stay small which hasn't worked at all.