League MVP

[TJ]

That points out a dispute that has been around for a long time. The award is meant for the most VALUABLE player, not the BEST player. mVp.

If we're talking pure value, then it validates the argument for LeBron even more. When he left Cleveland for Miami, Cleveland became a dumpster fire while Miami ran the East. When he returned, Miami then became a bottom feeder while Cleveland was the title contender out east. Westbrook, Harden, and Leonard don't make their respective teams title contenders. They make their team's playoff contenders, but not enough to win titles. LeBron is the only proven variable to take a team from worst to first. Six straight finals with two teams.

There literally isn't a more valuable player in the league than LeBron.

 

[sunsfan88]

Harden is still a complete defensive liability and is about to shatter the record for turnovers in a season by any player in league history.

Westbrook is a triple-double machine, but his team isn't that great.

Leonard is great, but not league MVP great.

It should be LeBron because he's the best player in the NBA, but that's not how the league votes.

Can you expand further on this? Especially considering that Leonard bests LeBron whenever they play one another.

Kawhi plays both offense and defense at elite levels and his team has a better record than the Cavs, Rockets or Thunder.

He's beyond "league MVP great".

 

[TJ]

Can you expand further on this? Especially considering that Leonard bests LeBron whenever they play one another.

Kawhi plays both offense and defense at elite levels and his team has a better record than the Cavs, Rockets or Thunder.

He's beyond "league MVP great".

And LeBron averages more rebounds and assists while boasting a better FG %. Also, for as much love as Kawhi's defense gets, how come his team gives up less points per possession when he's on the bench?

No animosity towards Leonard, but let's not pretend that Kawhi is anywhere near LeBron's level.

 

[slinslin]

Westbrook is just as bad as Harden on defense.

And it is not exactly like Harden has all that much talent around him either yet his team is much better.

Westbrook has no argument for MVP, his only argument is an arbitrary statistical cut off.

Harden averages better numbers than Westbrook, despite the triple double and it is not even close to be honest.

I don't even see how Westbrook could be MVP over Durant or Lebron.

Westbrook 31/10/10 42/33/84=eFG 47%
Harden 29/8/11 45/35/85=eFG% 54%

 

[Russ Smith]

Harden is still a complete defensive liability and is about to shatter the record for turnovers in a season by any player in league history.

Westbrook is a triple-double machine, but his team isn't that great.

Leonard is great, but not league MVP great.

It should be LeBron because he's the best player in the NBA, but that's not how the league votes.

on harden, if you saw the game last night with the Warriors the defensive thing was front and center. the Warriors entire gameplan last night was attack Harden. They went after him so mercilessly they were up 20 when the refs started calling fouls and putting Harden on the line. Curry got into foul trouble and had to sit but the Warriors backups were still going after him.

Then Green got hurt rolled an ankle, and when he came back in. D'antoni actually put Harden on Green trying to hide him on the injured guy.

Great offensive player but man did he get destroyed last night. They easily had 40 against him last night and maybe 50 between Curry, Thompson, then Iggy and finally Green. they just kept hiding him on someone else it never really worked.

 

[az jam]

Harden gets my vote.

 

[Finito]

Westbrook is just as bad as Harden on defense.

And it is not exactly like Harden has all that much talent around him either yet his team is much better.

Westbrook has no argument for MVP, his only argument is an arbitrary statistical cut off.

Harden averages better numbers than Westbrook, despite the triple double and it is not even close to be honest.

I don't even see how Westbrook could be MVP over Durant or Lebron.

Westbrook 31/10/10 42/33/84=eFG 47%
Harden 29/8/11 45/35/85=eFG% 54%

When you say stuff like Westbrook has no argument for MVP it just makes you look like a troll

 

[elindholm]

57/13/11, come from behind OT victory on the road. #statpadding

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

57/13/11, come from behind OT victory on the road. #statpadding

Westbrook is in mega ball hog mode...but he's still a ridiculously freakish player. He's doing everything he can to win that MVP.

 

[slinslin]

When you say stuff like Westbrook has no argument for MVP it just makes you look like a troll

whatever you say

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

 

[sunsfan88]

whatever you say

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

You know that link is showing that Westbrook has a case for MVP right? He's the #3 on their MVP list meaning he's in the mix for it unlike what you said.

 

[slinslin]

Not when you have a quarter of the case.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

whatever you say

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

You have to pretty much never watch basketball to say he's not the leading MVP candidate. Guy is averaging a triple-double for the SEASON...he's winning MVP. So actually start watching some games...maybe...

 

[slinslin]

averaging a triple double is meaningless. it is arbitrary feed. If we didn't use a decimal system to track NBA stats he might not average a triple double.

James Harden is putting up better numbers than Westbrook, whether he averages a triple double or not.

A player averaging 10/10/10 is not better than a player averaging 50/9/15. Oh but he averages a triple double..

Harden = better stats, better team = MVP. EZ D

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

averaging a triple double is meaningless. it is arbitrary feed. If we didn't use a decimal system to track NBA stats he might not average a triple double.

James Harden is putting up better numbers than Westbrook, whether he averages a triple double or not.

A player averaging 10/10/10 is not better than a player averaging 50/9/15. Oh but he averages a triple double..

Harden = better stats, better team = MVP. EZ D

Umm...except James Harden doesn't have better stats...and Westbrook is averaging 32/10/10. Harden is my guy...I want him to win...but Westbrook has been an absolute freak this year...to deny that just shows me you have some sort of weird bias, and there's nothing anyone can say to change your mind. And luckily you're not voting for MVP...holy smokes.

 

[Hoop Head]

Westbrook has no argument for MVP, his only argument is an arbitrary statistical cut off.

All you do is tout stats for players all the time, you don't base any arguments you make based on actually watching players or teams play. So why are Westbrook's stats so different?

 

[JCSunsfan]

I take Westbrook over Harden, primarily because I REALLY hate Harden's flopping. I hate the way fouls are called in the NBA when the contact is clearly initiated by the offensive player. I am not sure what the solution is. I know this is very much marginal reason, but its mine.

 

[slinslin]

All you do is tout stats for players all the time, you don't base any arguments you make based on actually watching players or teams play. So why are Westbrook's stats so different?

Because Harden is massively ahead in terms of shooting efficiency.

 

[slinslin]

Umm...except James Harden doesn't have better stats...and Westbrook is averaging 32/10/10. Harden is my guy...I want him to win...but Westbrook has been an absolute freak this year...to deny that just shows me you have some sort of weird bias, and there's nothing anyone can say to change your mind. And luckily you're not voting for MVP...holy smokes.

Where do I deny that?

Westbrook is simply not the MVP.

Harden has a better season and a better record. And it is not like Harden plays with a collection of stars around him. If you made a survey before the season ppl would probably have rated the Thunder roster higher.

The scoring difference is made up by the assist difference. Westbrook gets a couple more rebounds, probably uncontested ones alone making up that difference but there is a massive difference of 5% in eFG% and 6% in TS%.

They are both terrible defenders.

 

[elindholm]

And it is not like Harden plays with a collection of stars around him.

What are the statistics for each team's net plus-minus per possession, or whatever the best advanced metric is, when their star is on the floor versus when he sits?[/QUOTE]

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

What are the statistics for each team's net plus-minus per possession, or whatever the best advanced metric is, when their star is on the floor versus when he sits?

From what I can tell they are about 5 points better with Harden on the court.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612745/onoffcourt-traditional/

 

[elindholm]

From what I can tell they are about 5 points better with Harden on the court.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612745/onoffcourt-traditional/

+5.4 with Harden versus +0.9 without, for a swing of 4.5. Going by that, the Thunder are +3.3 with Westbrook, -2.4 without him, for a swing of 5.7, greater than Harden's. And the "without" numbers would seem to explode slinslin's claim that the rest of the Houston roster is just as bad as the rest of Oklahoma City's.

I've watched quite a bit of the Thunder this year. The roster minus Westbrook is very poor. You have Oladipo, who is a third or fourth option guy, and then a handful of role players who are woefully inconsistent. Kanter was atrocious in last night's collapse against the Spurs.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

+5.4 with Harden versus +0.9 without, for a swing of 4.5. Going by that, the Thunder are +3.3 with Westbrook, -2.4 without him, for a swing of 5.7, greater than Harden's. And the "without" numbers would seem to explode slinslin's claim that the rest of the Houston roster is just as bad as the rest of Oklahoma City's.

I've watched quite a bit of the Thunder this year. The roster minus Westbrook is very poor. You have Oladipo, who is a third or fourth option guy, and then a handful of role players who are woefully inconsistent. Kanter was atrocious in last night's collapse against the Spurs.

For comparison's sake the Warriors are a +12.4 with Curry on the floor and a -.5 with Curry off the floor. That is likely the biggest differential of any player in the league.

 

[elindholm]

For comparison's sake the Warriors are a +12.4 with Curry on the floor and a -.5 with Curry off the floor. That is likely the biggest differential of any player in the league.

Yeah, that's impressive, and a bit surprising. I would think that the Curry-less Warriors would still be a playoff team. Maybe there's a cross-correlation with other Golden State players who tend to be on or off the floor at the same time as Curry.

 

[Sunburn]

Anyone that matches Robertson's triple double season has my vote.