League MVP

[Hoop Head]

What will help Westbook in the voting is how well his team does when he puts up triple doubles. They're not a playoff team unless he carries them on his back, like he has. They have a .794 winning percentage when he gets one and just a .333 winning percentage when he doesn't and he has 39 triple doubles so far this year. There is a chance they could move up as high as the 4th seed as well. They're 3 games behind the Jazz for their division and it's unlikely they can close that gap unless Utah falls apart and OKC gets hot and stays hot to close out the season. If they do somehow win their division then I think the debate will be over completely.

Whoever wins the scoring title is usually looked at as an MVP candidate anyways and Russ is doing that in addition to being 3rd in assists and 11th in rebounds per game. For a point guard to average 10+ rebounds a night is crazy. Magic didn't even do that and he was 6'9. If you watch OKC play then it's obvious he's not just padding his stats, he's playing every game like it's a playoff game. If he doesn't get MVP after averaging a triple double and also leading the league in scoring then there is something off. I know the Rockets are doing well but Harden's numbers are a result of the stat padding style that D'Antoni pushes and they really aren't that much different than what he's done in the past. He's averaging more assists but he's playing PG now.

 

[slinslin]

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Only Gobert and Whiteside have contested less three pointers than Westbrook, let that sink in.

 

[sunsfan88]

Nick Collison has already said it doesn't matter. "“It’s huge,” Thunder reserve forward Nick Collison said. “It allows us to get into transition more than a lot of teams. Even just a guy finding him to make the pass, that one second allows them to get back. Some of those that end up in transition shots wouldn’t be if we had to find him.” Also, a few months back, Royce Young said the following, "If you watch Thunder games — and I can’t confirm this — but it certainly appears that Russell Westbrook’s teammates are kind of in on this, because there are times where they see Russ going for a rebound and they say, “Russ, you go get that rebound.”

[…]

They want Westbrook rebounding the ball because they see that as one of their best chances to turn defense into offense. You get the ball into Westbrook’s hands as quickly as possible and… he can turn just an ordinary defensive rebound into a fastbreak opportunity."

So, if you're going to say what you said and say it does matter, I'm going to go ahead and say it doesn't matter. The guys on the Thunder don't care about their own stats because they don't care about recognition, they already have their contracts and know they'll be taken care of regardless, etc. When you have a guard that can come down and get the rebound allowing the bigs to start running down the court leading to better fast break opportunities, something that has already been proven (and potentially more scoring from the bigs), it's not demoralizing for teammates - it makes their lives easier and gives them one less thing to worry about. Now, it might be the case as this is just conjecture, but the potential for problems are not there. You can use your words + what the Thunder players have actually said + what other writers have said to show the other side too. Listening to interviews, it's pretty easy to tell that the team doesn't care about statistics - Adams in particular, even going back to college, was never one to grovel when he didn't get touches or wasn't overly involved.

Last year, KD averaged 6.6 uncontested rebounds per game and Ibaka was at 4.5 Losing those two players meant the team lost 11.1 uncontested rebounds per game. I wonder how his teammates feel about the other team potentially grabbing those 11 rebounds per game...? Maybe they should have just let that happen instead of letting Westbrook, who averaged 5.9 uncontested rebounds per game last year, grab another 2.6 out of the remaining 11.1. Why should Westbrook not be allowed to make up some of the rebounds that are lost from losing KD / Ibaka if Adams and Roberson both are? KD and Ibaka's replacements are nowhere near the rebounders either one of them were, so the team has a legit risk of losing out on rebounds if someone doesn't pick it up...god forbid it's Westbrook.

Certainly some decent points in this post from another forum regarding Westbrook's rebounding

 

[GatorAZ]

Lebron, Harden and Westbrook are fine with me whoever wins it. Kawhi has tailed off a bit. This is like the year Nash won where 3-4 guys deserved it.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

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Only Gobert and Whiteside have contested less three pointers than Westbrook, let that sink in.

Doesn't surprise me. Westbrook is clearly on a stat-padding rampage. He'll never win a title playing like that, but he'll certainly win the MVP.

 

[Hoop Head]

Westbrook has tied Oscar Robertson's record for most triple doubles in a season with 41. The Thunder have 5 games left to go, I'm sure he'll get at least 1 more. I highly doubt he'd be ok with resting for a game like a lot of other stars have this year.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/pag.../follow-russell-westbrook-triple-double-chase

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

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Only Gobert and Whiteside have contested less three pointers than Westbrook, let that sink in.

I knew he was stat padding the rebounds, but I didn't realize it was this bad. That is actually pretty disgraceful if you ask me. Really hope he doesn't win the MVP doing this...

 

[slinslin]

Here is a rdiciulous stat.

James Harden alone has drawn more 3pt shooting fouls than any other team roster combined, by a wide margin.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/james-harden-gets-fouled-on-3s-more-than-any-nba-team/

James Harden has drawn 108 fouls on 3pt attempts. Louis Williams is 2nd with 50.

The top 5 Teams in 3pt Fouls Drawn are
Lakers 73
Hornets 68
Raptors 52
Pacers 51
Blazers 41

 

[3rdside]

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/17636581/data-helping-nba-players-redefine-meaning-athleticism

Posted this elsewhere but it totally explains it - he's found the perfect way to exploit his superior athletic talent...

 

[Hoop Head]

Here is a rdiciulous stat.

James Harden alone has drawn more 3pt shooting fouls than any other team roster combined, by a wide margin.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/james-harden-gets-fouled-on-3s-more-than-any-nba-team/

James Harden has drawn 108 fouls on 3pt attempts. Louis Williams is 2nd with 50.

The top 5 Teams in 3pt Fouls Drawn are
Lakers 73
Hornets 68
Raptors 52
Pacers 51
Blazers 41

You complain about Westbrook "padding his stats" but don't seem to care how cheaply Harden draws shooting fouls. If you watched even the Suns/Rockets game from a few days ago you'd see that Harden flops offensively to get calls on shot attempts. He's purposely jumping into players so the refs blow the whistle. It's not that impressive, at all. He's doing it so much that a number of fans, not just here, want the NBA to review and change how officials call shooting fouls in instances like that.

The Rockets are also taking an NBA record number of 3 pointers at 40 a game, which is almost 8 more than #2 on the list. Harden alone takes 9.2 a game. He's #2 in 3 point attempts per game this year also, which puts him at #3 on the all time list for number of 3 pointers attempted in a season. So sure, he's taking a ton of 3's and getting some fouls called with his offensive flopping but even if he weren't flopping to get those calls how does that stat make him an MVP?

 

[3rdside]

You complain about Westbrook "padding his stats" but don't seem to care how cheaply Harden draws shooting fouls. If you watched even the Suns/Rockets game from a few days ago you'd see that Harden flops offensively to get calls on shot attempts. He's purposely jumping into players so the refs blow the whistle. It's not that impressive, at all. He's doing it so much that a number of fans, not just here, want the NBA to review and change how officials call shooting fouls in instances like that.

The Rockets are also taking an NBA record number of 3 pointers at 40 a game, which is almost 8 more than #2 on the list. Harden alone takes 9.2 a game. He's #2 in 3 point attempts per game this year also, which puts him at #3 on the all time list for number of 3 pointers attempted in a season. So sure, he's taking a ton of 3's and getting some fouls called with his offensive flopping but even if he weren't flopping to get those calls how does that stat make him an MVP?

I think you missed the point of my post there kingdad - Harden may flop / draw the shooting foul, but he does it because he can; by exploiting his superior talent. The floor is open for the rest of the NBA to do it, but they can't because they're not as good at 'braking' as Harden is.

I would have said it was a cheap move until I read that article about Harden - it's not, it's an athletically elite skill.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think you missed the point of my post there kingdad - Harden may flop / draw the shooting foul, but he does it because he can; by exploiting his superior talent. The floor is open for the rest of the NBA to do it, but they can't because they're not as good at 'braking' as Harden is.

I would have said it was a cheap move until I read that article about Harden - it's not, it's an athletically elite skill.

I didn't read the article you posted when I made my post because i was replying to Slin's post. I'm checking it out now and while some it may have to do with his athleticism, it's still a cheap move. I don't think any other player tries to exploit the system as much as Harden. I was responding to Slin who posted before you about what an amazing stat it is, which I don't agree with. He may be leading the league by a wide margin but I don't think that gives him the nod for MVP over Westbrook or anyone else for that matter. Drawing a lot of shooting fouls is not a stat that I ever thought would be used to make someones case for MVP.

In regards to Westbrook padding his stats with rebounds I think that's been addressed a few times, if Westbrook gets the ball to start the possession it helps OKC break out in transition quicker. Sure there are times when other players box out for him but it's because they'd secure the rebound and pass it to Westbrook right away anyways so why not just help Russ get it and go straight to offense because it saves a few seconds in transition.

 

[3rdside]

I didn't read the article you posted when I made my post because i was replying to Slin's post. I'm checking it out now and while some it may have to do with his athleticism, it's still a cheap move. I don't think any other player tries to exploit the system as much as Harden. I was responding to Slin who posted before you about what an amazing stat it is, which I don't agree with. He may be leading the league by a wide margin but I don't think that gives him the nod for MVP over Westbrook or anyone else for that matter. Drawing a lot of shooting fouls is not a stat that I ever thought would be used to make someones case for MVP.

In regards to Westbrook padding his stats with rebounds I think that's been addressed a few times, if Westbrook gets the ball to start the possession it helps OKC break out in transition quicker. Sure there are times when other players box out for him but it's because they'd secure the rebound and pass it to Westbrook right away anyways so why not just help Russ get it and go straight to offense because it saves a few seconds in transition.

1. I'm arguing it's an athletically advanced move - hack a shaq was 'cheap' but they eventually outlawed it for the good of the game. In this case however you won't be able to outlaw Harden's move because you'll never know if he (or any other player) intends to shoot or not when the foul is made. Harden is exploiting the rules almost certainly, but only because his elite athleticism allows him to. If other players could do it they would but they can't. It's his genius.

2. I don't think anyone's arguing that, it's Harden's statistically similar game to Westbrook, without the blatant stat padding, with a title-challenging team with a sans-superstar roster that isn't a whole lot better than OKC's that gives him the nod. The concept of being a valuable player is important to the 'MVP' award - they're both valuable of course - however only one of them is a team player, the other is a ball hogging, one man show.

3. Westbrook's stat padding goes beyond rebounding - as far as I'm aware he's turned down open shots looking for assists that didn't materialise that have literally cost his team games. Stat padding for the benefit of self at the expense of team is virtually unforgivable in a team game.

 

[slinslin]

Are you kidding me? I did not even judge it at all, if anything I said "ridiculous".

But anyway as long as the refs make these calls Harden plays in the boundary of the rules and thus it is obviously a skill to draw these fouls.

As long as the league does not adjust the rules, you can't really critize Harden for drawing these fouls. I can critize Westbrook however for very bad shooting efficiency, obvious rebound stat-padding either by teammates surrendering the rebounds to him for no reason besides padding his stats or by completely leaving his man to speculate for a rebounds like someone playing NBA2K.

 

[Hoop Head]

When does the voting start for MVP? I know they're having an awards ceremony this year and not doing it like they have in the past where they present it before a postseason game. I'm curious when voting starts and ends though since the Rockets play the Thunder in the first round. If people can vote throughout that series I see that outcome effecting the race. I know it's for regular season MVP but having the top 2 players go head to head in round 1 is interesting and should make for a great series.