Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[Sandan]

Where does your hatred for Rod Graves come from K9.

You are now putting that link in your sig and dragging up ancient history.

Ignoring the [apparentt] fact the Cardinals are offering pretty decent guaranteed cash, you still know nothing more than anybody else but continue to get more shrill with every post

 

[40yearfan]

Good going nidan. Looks like your take was the correct one all along.

 

[kerouac9]

Where does your hatred for Rod Graves come from K9.

You are now putting that link in your sig and dragging up ancient history.

Ignoring the [apparentt] fact the Cardinals are offering pretty decent guaranteed cash, you still know nothing more than anybody else but continue to get more shrill with every post

As usual, the unearned love and respect for the guy on this board continues to frustrate and disillusion me.

The guaranteed money number has been out there for almost a week, nidan. I guess now that Denny says it, it has to be true. What apparently they're working on is other language, such as performance incentives and escalators. I have a hard time believing that Condon is the hold-up on this, since he's done a half-dozen of these, and the Cardinals have done zero.

 

[Sandan]

Once again you assume all the hold ups are from the Cardinals.

It sure doesn't look like it to me but heck, unlike you I'm happy to say I don't know.

You obviously do know, where do you get your information ?

 

[40yearfan]

As usual, the unearned love and respect for the guy on this board continues to frustrate and disillusion me.

The guaranteed money number has been out there for almost a week, nidan. I guess now that Denny says it, it has to be true. What apparently they're working on is other language, such as performance incentives and escalators. I have a hard time believing that Condon is the hold-up on this, since he's done a half-dozen of these, and the Cardinals have done zero.

So we should automatically assume it's the Cards fault? It's hard for me to understand how someone can be a fan of a team that never does anything right.

 

[Russ Smith]

As usual, the unearned love and respect for the guy on this board continues to frustrate and disillusion me.

The guaranteed money number has been out there for almost a week, nidan. I guess now that Denny says it, it has to be true. What apparently they're working on is other language, such as performance incentives and escalators. I have a hard time believing that Condon is the hold-up on this, since he's done a half-dozen of these, and the Cardinals have done zero.

That's true but LT didn't get in on time, and Watson had to FIRE Condon, to get in. So Condon's experience at least to some extent is he can't get his clients in on time.


I've been a Card fan since 75, I'm used to instantly assuming the problem is the Cards, but in this case that's getting harder and harder to believe.

You keep saying the Cards could have him in camp today if they wanted, true, and Condon could have him in camp today too if he wanted.

 

[kerouac9]

That's true but LT didn't get in on time, and Watson had to FIRE Condon, to get in. So Condon's experience at least to some extent is he can't get his clients in on time.

I've been a Card fan since 75, I'm used to instantly assuming the problem is the Cards, but in this case that's getting harder and harder to believe.

You keep saying the Cards could have him in camp today if they wanted, true, and Condon could have him in camp today too if he wanted.

That's true, but I personally think that the Cards need him more from a PR standpoint and from a roster standpoint. How anyone could be comfortable with Navarre starting Week 4 if Warner goes down after seeing Saturday's performance is beyond me.

When Leinart signs, everyone will forget that he's a holdout. They always do. People will go buy some of those t-shirts that the Cards are marketing with his image on it.

To me, you can look at Condon, who's negotiated enough of these to know what he's doing, or Graves/Bill, Sr., who've never negotiated a 1st round QB contract, ever. The holdup's definitely on each side, but I'd like to think that the Cards would have tried to jump on some of the momentum and understand that they probably are going to make up whatever they have to give Leinart to get him in now with sales of #7 jerseys at the team shop this season.

Maybe it's too easy to think that Condon knows what he's doing when it comes to these kinds of contracts and the Cards don't, but sometimes what's easy is also what's right.

 

[Urubu Rei]

Graves

Are you all sure that Graves is really in charge of this negociation?

I believe that he is working without a contract right now, or pretty close of it's end. Is he calling the shots?

And how this hold out can impact his future with the organization?

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe it's too easy to think that Condon knows what he's doing when it comes to these kinds of contracts and the Cards don't, but sometimes what's easy is also what's right.

Obviously none of us know the whole story. But if it's as simple as saying how come the cards keep drafting greedy players year after year, then how you we account for the patriots being unable to close a deal with him?

I said all along that because he slipped, Leinart was going to be a tough sign, but at some point his camp has to get off that I should have gone higher angle, and just accept that the club is offering him more than market value, and just sign the contract and start earning his money.

And of course we'll all forget his holdout, we always do, but that doesn't make it right, and in this instance it's CLEARLY not in the best interests of the team.

 

[conraddobler]

That's true, but I personally think that the Cards need him more from a PR standpoint and from a roster standpoint. How anyone could be comfortable with Navarre starting Week 4 if Warner goes down after seeing Saturday's performance is beyond me.

When Leinart signs, everyone will forget that he's a holdout. They always do. People will go buy some of those t-shirts that the Cards are marketing with his image on it.

To me, you can look at Condon, who's negotiated enough of these to know what he's doing, or Graves/Bill, Sr., who've never negotiated a 1st round QB contract, ever. The holdup's definitely on each side, but I'd like to think that the Cards would have tried to jump on some of the momentum and understand that they probably are going to make up whatever they have to give Leinart to get him in now with sales of #7 jerseys at the team shop this season.

Maybe it's too easy to think that Condon knows what he's doing when it comes to these kinds of contracts and the Cards don't, but sometimes what's easy is also what's right.

Green's no naive new coach, he's been around, he wouldn't have pulled the stunt he did if he wasn't 100% behind the offer that's been made, him doing that is basically a shot across Leinart/Condon's bow saying, hey I wasn't born yesterday, we gave you a premium deal, not a slotted deal, we gave you a deal that's fitting your pre-draft stature to the extent we could, you're holding this up not us and I'm calling you out on it.

It's plain as day, we have the money, they are willing to give it to him, you guys arguement has been proved wrong IMO.

You argued same old Cardinals, same old Cardinals don't pay over the slotted value and didn't offer escalators period.

He got a greater guarantee than the 9th pick, greater overall deal or "top 5" total money, your take on this is running out of standing room.

 

[kerouac9]

I guess the deal with Watson was that the Patriots wanted to sign him for six years and Condon thought that was a year too long for the 32nd overall pick. Watson wanted to be in camp.

It's hard to argue with Condon's client stable and say that the guy doesn't know what he's doing. His clients are happy with their deals. Kind of like how fans hate Drew Rosenhaus but his clients love him.

 

[kerouac9]

You argued same old Cardinals, same old Cardinals don't pay over the slotted value and didn't offer escalators period.

I'm sorry, where did I say that the Cards' didn't offer escalators?

Why do you believe Denny Green more than Tom Condon when talking about numbers? The $14 million number has been out there for a week.

 

[conraddobler]

I'm sorry, where did I say that the Cards' didn't offer escalators?

Why do you believe Denny Green more than Tom Condon when talking about numbers? The $14 million number has been out there for a week.

The 4th or 5th highest player part was left out of course.

DG is many things, but he knows contracts and if he felt we were being stingy at all, no way he makes the move he did.

Him doing that, taking that stand means that he's fed up with Leinart not management, if he believed Condon was right he'd say nothing.

 

[kerouac9]

The 4th or 5th highest player part was left out of course.

DG is many things, but he knows contracts and if he felt we were being stingy at all, no way he makes the move he did.

Him doing that, taking that stand means that he's fed up with Leinart not management, if he believed Condon was right he'd say nothing.

I bet he is fed up with Condon, and I bet he's fed up with management. I bet he's also fed up with his #2 quarterback. I bet he's also fed up with the fact that his offense had -5 yards rushing coming out of the first quarter on Saturday. I bet he's really fed up with people asking him when his #1 pick is going to make it to camp.

What he didn't say was what the escalators were, which is what the reported holdup is. The "potential" value of the contract may be within the Top 5 contracts, but I've said before that that's a vanity number that will never, ever materialize. Condon and Leinart are probably working ont he numbers that will.

I'm tired of having him out of camp, too. I was the one that thought that the Cards would annouce a deal Saturday afternoon. I'm a little pissed that they reportedly couldn't be bothered to talk to Condon from Wednesday until Sunday.

 

[Sandan]

Again you believe any information that paints the Cardinals as in the wrong.

Even if true, your characterization of 'couldn't be bothered' may not be accurate, just very pejorative.

Do you really think the Cardinals couldn't 'be bothered' to call Condon back, geeze get real.

 

[kerouac9]

Again you believe any information that paints the Cardinals as in the wrong.

Even if true, your characterization of 'couldn't be bothered' may not be accurate, just very pejorative.

Do you really think the Cardinals couldn't 'be bothered' to call Condon back, geeze get real.

That's what Jurecki's reporting, as well as Dan Bickley. Do you think that The Republic just says, "Well, if you say it, it must be true"? C'mon, nidan.

I think that maybe Rod brought Condon's proposal to Bill Sr. (as was also reported) and Bill Sr. was busy thinking and worring about the stadium opening, so he tabled the thing and didn't give a response. That seems within the realm of possibility to me.

Do you think that Bickley and Jurecki made this story out of thin air? Or that the truth is "somewhere in between", like maybe the Cards couldn't get back to Condon until Saturday after the game. Would this be more acceptable?

 

[conraddobler]

I bet he is fed up with Condon, and I bet he's fed up with management. I bet he's also fed up with his #2 quarterback. I bet he's also fed up with the fact that his offense had -5 yards rushing coming out of the first quarter on Saturday. I bet he's really fed up with people asking him when his #1 pick is going to make it to camp.

What he didn't say was what the escalators were, which is what the reported holdup is. The "potential" value of the contract may be within the Top 5 contracts, but I've said before that that's a vanity number that will never, ever materialize. Condon and Leinart are probably working ont he numbers that will.

I'm tired of having him out of camp, too. I was the one that thought that the Cards would annouce a deal Saturday afternoon. I'm a little pissed that they reportedly couldn't be bothered to talk to Condon from Wednesday until Sunday.

Why be a fan of a team you think so little of?

You're just taking the side of some snot nosed greedy, hasn't played a down of football, getting more guaranteed money than my slot valued, proved nothing kid over the word of our management and our coach.

Until he plays for us he's nothing to me but an irritation, I'll root for the guy and forget about all of this if he signs, I'll take a leak on his lawn once a year if he goes back into the draft.

 

[kerouac9]

Why be a fan of a team you think so little of?

You're just taking the side of some snot nosed greedy, hasn't played a down of football, getting more guaranteed money than my slot valued, proved nothing kid over the word of our management and our coach.

Until he plays for us he's nothing to me but an irritation, I'll root for the guy and forget about all of this if he signs, I'll take a leak on his lawn once a year if he goes back into the draft.

Then stop posting on this thread, Conrad.

 

[Evil Ash]

What he didn't say was what the escalators were, which is what the reported holdup is. The "potential" value of the contract may be within the Top 5 contracts, but I've said before that that's a vanity number that will never, ever materialize. Condon and Leinart are probably working ont he numbers that will.

... and that may be the problem right there. All contracts contain claues that could be put into 3 categories: insanely easy (ie roster bonuses), realistic (ie Probowl appearances), and then unrealistic (ie Cutler's escalator clauses which pays him a bonus if he plays in 60% or 70% of the Broncos snaps for the 1st 3 years of his contract, or another example would be for breaking Marino's passing records)

If Condon wants everything to be put into the insanely easy or realistic clause then he's being greedy ... plain and simple. If the Cards are putting too many things in the unrealistic category then its their fault for the holdout.

The problem is we don't know whats going on and everything up to this point is an ASSUMPTION.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm right there with you, Ash.

 

[Renz]

... and that may be the problem right there. All contracts contain claues that could be put into 3 categories: insanely easy (ie roster bonuses), realistic (ie Probowl appearances), and then unrealistic (ie Cutler's escalator clauses which pays him a bonus if he plays in 60% or 70% of the Broncos snaps for the 1st 3 years of his contract, or another example would be for breaking Marino's passing records)

If Condon wants everything to be put into the insanely easy or realistic clause then he's being greedy ... plain and simple. If the Cards are putting too many things in the unrealistic category then its their fault for the holdout.

The problem is we don't know whats going on and everything up to this point is an ASSUMPTION.

$14 million guaranteed is $14 million guaranteed.

 

[Evil Ash]

$14 million guaranteed is $14 million guaranteed.

I'm not disagreeing with that

I'm saying its a realistic possibility that Condon wants to have everything easy for his client to make sure he was the 4th or 5th highest paid player in the draft and was trying to use the Cards past against them trying to win everybody on their side. With Green coming out and making those comments, the pressure just went onto Condon's side to get a deal done.

They may have just lost the PR battle

 

[joeshmo]

$14 million guaranteed is $14 million guaranteed.

Not really. That gauranteed word gets thrown around way to often. Roster bonuses are included in the gauranteed total, but roster bonuses are not gauranteed, in that you have to be on the team to collect it, then its gauranteed but not from day one of signing the contract.

All we know is that 9 Mill of that 14 is signing bonus, becuase 9 mill is all about we can afford under the rookie salary cap. So the quetion is how can matt get the other 5 mill. Does he have a 1 Mill roster bonus over the last 5 years of his contract. Does he get 2.5 next year and 2.5 the year after. Does he have to wait until the year 2011 to collect the roster bonus. Not knowing how that 14 Mill is structured I cant really make a fair judgement on either side. If Condon refused two 2.5 mill roster bonuses over the next 2 years then he is a shmuck. If he turned down a roster bonus 4 or 5 years from now i will have to agree with condon as with injuries in this league thats not a very good offer. If the cards were offering a 1 mill roster bonus over the next 5 years, Then I would have to not take anyones side and there is room for negotiation.

I would also like to see how the incentives are laid out and how hard or easy it would be for him to get that "Top 5" money. Does he have to play in 100% of the snaps this year to get more money or 50%. And so on. that is a very improtant part of the contract, maybe the biggest part, and we havent heard about it yet.

In fact I dont even think they are fighting about the gauranteed money anymore. They are talking about structure and wording of the deal. I think Denny blew up becuase he finally realized just how bad his boy Navarre is. If Navarre played well, I dont think we get this outburst.

Interesting details none the less and I like Dennys fire so far this season.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Not really. That gauranteed word gets thrown around way to often. Roster bonuses are included in the gauranteed total, but roster bonuses are not gauranteed, in that you have to be on the team to collect it, then its gauranteed but not from day one of signing the contract.

All we know is that 9 Mill of that 14 is signing bonus, becuase 9 mill is all about we can afford under the rookie salary cap. So the quetion is how can matt get the other 5 mill. Does he have a 1 Mill roster bonus over the last 5 years of his contract. Does he get 2.5 next year and 2.5 the year after. Does he have to wait until the year 2011 to collect the roster bonus. Not knowing how that 14 Mill is structured I cant really make a fair judgement on either side. If Condon refused two 2.5 mill roster bonuses over the next 2 years then he is a shmuck. If he turned down a roster bonus 4 or 5 years from now i will have to agree with condon as with injuries in this league thats not a very good offer. If the cards were offering a 1 mill roster bonus over the next 5 years, Then I would have to not take anyones side and there is room for negotiation.

I would also like to see how the incentives are laid out and how hard or easy it would be for him to get that "Top 5" money. Does he have to play in 100% of the snaps this year to get more money or 50%. And so on. that is a very improtant part of the contract, maybe the biggest part, and we havent heard about it yet.

In fact I dont even think they are fighting about the gauranteed money anymore. They are talking about structure and wording of the deal. I think Denny blew up becuase he finally realized just how bad his boy Navarre is. If Navarre played well, I dont think we get this outburst.

Interesting details none the less and I like Dennys fire so far this season.

Very good take on things, Joe...