Let’s Take a Moment to Overreact to Kyler’s IG Page

[QuebecCard]

Bottom line: Can Kyler make plays IN THE POCKET?
If anyone thinks he can achieve next-level success by scampering around and tossing hail Mary’s while cutting and running from the pocket, you couldn’t be more misinformed…

In his first 3 seasons, he has yet to show an ability to stand in the pocket and make critical throws…
Is that because he literally can’t see over his lineman? Or, does he play scared and simply refuses to absorb the hits (albeit scaled down in the new NFL) that come when you’re committed to winning - A.K.A. standing in the pocket to make the big time throws?

I don’t see this fatal flaw changing… ever.

You can't scamper around to the following completion percentages:

2019: 64.39
2020: 67.20
2021: 69.23

I see an improving trend, not any flaw that could be deemed by any reasonable measure as 'fatal'.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I was and still am a huge fan of Neil Lomax. In my book, he was better than Jim Hart. But, in no way, was Lomax better than Murray. Sadly, in the 60 years I’ve watched this team, we’ve only had a few “young” QB’s. I’m talking about guys that we drafted or came to the Cardinals at a very young age. Those few guys are Hart, Lomax, Plummer, and Murray. I would rank them:
1. Murray
2. Lomax
3. Hart
4. Plummer

The only other Cardinal QB’s that were good came to us when their careers were advanced: Charley Johnson (early to mid 60’s), Warner, Palmer.

IMO, Murray has already proven that he’s a very good NFL QB. He can be a great NFL QB if he works hard, becomes more emotionally mature AND the Cardinal FO improves the OL, DL, WR depth, and the secondary.

It would be absolute insanity to not extend a 24 year old kid who’s as talented as Murray is.

I would not say he's better than Lomax at the moment, just can't. Lomax had games he would take over the whole game and not just in spurts and shown he could lead comebacks in the fourth quarter. I still believe that Kyler can mature into something possibly better but despite his size which amplifies his physical talents, he does not have the savvy or coolness Lomax had when playing. I do agree Lomax was better than Jim Hart and Jim Hart was a great QB, which says a lot about Lomax and why one cannot even approach to put Murray in that category yet... and probably why I have a soft spot for Plummer, because he had the least gifted arm of them all but played his arse off (could you imagine Kyler right now pushing his ribs cage back in place in between plays like Plummer once during a injury while he kept playing, or as Lomax trying to play with his degenerative hip)

 

[TJ]

Jake Plummer is the most overrated QB in Cards history. He's only revered in AZ because he went to asu and was somewhat better than the jabronis that preceeded him.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Jake Plummer is the most overrated QB in Cards history. He's only revered in AZ because he went to asu and was somewhat better than the jabronis that preceeded him.

No, he's not, sincerely from a Texan who has no interest in Arizona collegiate football. Nobody here is saying he was Hall of Fame material, and did not have his flaws, but the suggestion of your post that he was not much lacks credence. I would also say of all the players who wore a Cardinal uniform he was one of the most likable and that's why we have a fondness for him. He did contribute to breaking a playoff drought for the Cards, while pulling off an upset dominating a good Cowboy team in the '98 playoffs. He did go on to lead Denver to several playoff appearances and was able to match or surpassed several of Elway's Bronco passing records (including passing yardage and passing touchdowns in a single season) in 2004... sorry, but to juxtapose him next to 'jabronis' is totally wrong

 

[Mainstreet]

Everytime I close my eyes I remember Kyler running backwards. Something needs to change.

 

[PACardsFan]

I would not say he's better than Lomax at the moment, just can't. Lomax had games he would take over the whole game and not just in spurts and shown he could lead comebacks in the fourth quarter. I still believe that Kyler can mature into something possibly better but despite his size which amplifies his physical talents, he does not have the savvy or coolness Lomax had when playing. I do agree Lomax was better than Jim Hart and Jim Hart was a great QB, which says a lot about Lomax and why one cannot even approach to put Murray in that category yet... and probably why I have a soft spot for Plummer, because he had the least gifted arm of them all but played his arse off (could you imagine Kyler right now pushing his ribs cage back in place in between plays like Plummer once during a injury while he kept playing, or as Lomax trying to play with his degenerative hip)

Again, you’re comparing Lomax IN HIS PRIME to Murray right now. That wasn’t the point I was making. Lomax at the same point in his career was nowhere near as good as Murray. And don’t forget that Lomax peaked in 84 & then was never able to remotely perform as well once he got sacked 61 times in 85. I do think that Lomax was better than Hart, but an argument could be made either way. Hart was very fortunate to have played for Coryell. I would have liked to see Lomax play in that offense.

 

[GatorAZ]

My only silver lining from another late season meltdown was that the QB/HC/GM might drop their arrogance and entitlement a smidge going forward. It doesn’t sound like that’s happened. Maybe Kliff does something to break the pattern of epic flameouts? I’m just grasping at straws here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My only silver lining from another late season meltdown was that the QB/HC/GM might drop their arrogance and entitlement a smidge going forward. It doesn’t sound like that’s happened. Maybe Kliff does something to break the pattern of epic flameouts? I’m just grasping at straws here.

I’ve come around to “is it is, what It is.” That got us through a miracle 12 game stretch last year. Maybe one of these years that’ll happen again and we get the full miracle season.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Again, you’re comparing Lomax IN HIS PRIME to Murray right now. That wasn’t the point I was making. Lomax at the same point in his career was nowhere near as good as Murray. And don’t forget that Lomax peaked in 84 & then was never able to remotely perform as well once he got sacked 61 times in 85. I do think that Lomax was better than Hart, but an argument could be made either way. Hart was very fortunate to have played for Coryell. I would have liked to see Lomax play in that offense.

Hart was fortunate to play for the best OL in team history, being called the 'cigarette' QB... since people stated he had enough time back there to smoke a cigarette lol

 

[PJ1]

Hart was fortunate to play for the best OL in team history, being called the 'cigarette' QB... since people stated he had enough time back there to smoke a cigarette lol

Hart threw too many interceptions. More than TD’s in his career. Loved the guy and the the Coryell years were awesome but he wasn’t great statistically. And you are correct about his OL. He was sacked eight times in an entire season. The guy probably couldn’t outrun Bruce Arians.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Hart threw too many interceptions. More than TD’s in his career. Loved the guy and the the Coryell years were awesome but he wasn’t great statistically. And you are correct about his OL. He was sacked eight times in an entire season. The guy probably couldn’t outrun Bruce Arians.

Him and Lomax would need a sun dial timing their forty

 

[82CardsGrad]

You can't scamper around to the following completion percentages:

2019: 64.39
2020: 67.20
2021: 69.23

I see an improving trend, not any flaw that could be deemed by any reasonable measure as 'fatal'.

Kyler is extremely adept at making plays outside the pocket… so there’s that.
I wonder what his second half of the seasons stats look like. Both in terms of completion % and yards per attempt…
I wonder how many first down throws he’s made from outside the pocket vs in the pocket…

Bottom line, the NFL proves virtually every season, that only teams with QB’s who can operate and lead their teams making big time throws from the pocket, win in the post season.
And I see this as one of Murray’s biggest flaws… Fatal? Time will tell.

 

[Stout]

You can't scamper around to the following completion percentages:

2019: 64.39
2020: 67.20
2021: 69.23

I see an improving trend, not any flaw that could be deemed by any reasonable measure as 'fatal'.

Those numbers are good, but in no way do they incorporate bad sacks taken because the QB cannot properly utilize the pocket, or missed opportunities from the same. The kid is lights-out in being able to make plays at times, no question, but he also needs to be able to stand in and make a lot of the basic plays he isn't making.

 

[Russ Smith]

No, he's not, sincerely from a Texan who has no interest in Arizona collegiate football. Nobody here is saying he was Hall of Fame material, and did not have his flaws, but the suggestion of your post that he was not much lacks credence. I would also say of all the players who wore a Cardinal uniform he was one of the most likable and that's why we have a fondness for him. He did contribute to breaking a playoff drought for the Cards, while pulling off an upset dominating a good Cowboy team in the '98 playoffs. He did go on to lead Denver to several playoff appearances and was able to match or surpassed several of Elway's Bronco passing records (including passing yardage and passing touchdowns in a single season) in 2004... sorry, but to juxtapose him next to 'jabronis' is totally wrong

If after 6 years in Arizona, Kyler leaves and we find out he never attended voluntary offseason workouts, thsi board would implode ripping him. That actually happened with jake.

 

[BritCard]

My bitch is that unless Murray played INSANELY well, everyone immediately said he played horribly. The Cardinals could not win unless Murray was great. And that isn't fair to Murray. Murray may have not been GREAT in EVERY game, but he played well in EVERY game with the exception of the Lions game.

Lots of QB's don't have great games overall, but find a way to get it done in Q4. Kyler can't do that yet, and IMO he should in year 3.

I've seen this used a lot "X QB had 2 interception and didn't play well but the team still won. Kyler doesn't have that".

Most of the games we won, while they look like offensive blowouts we won because our D shut the opposition down. Start at game 1. That big win was built on the back of shutting down Henry, a FF sack on the 1 yard line, and shutting the Titans down. Same on the first Rams win. Same in most those early wins.

But the wins you mention where teams won despite bad QB play more often than not were because while the QB might not have been great overall they found ways to score when the chips were down.

 

[dscher]

Didn't know if this was posted yet. But I thought it was a good take by Anquan.

Anquan Boldin: 'You would be a fool' to let QB Kyler Murray leave

NFL veteran wide receiver Anquan Boldin shared his thoughts with Wolf & Luke on Kyler Murray and the Cardinals' offseason talks.

arizonasports.com

 

[BritCard]

Again, you’re comparing Lomax IN HIS PRIME to Murray right now. That wasn’t the point I was making. Lomax at the same point in his career was nowhere near as good as Murray. And don’t forget that Lomax peaked in 84 & then was never able to remotely perform as well once he got sacked 61 times in 85. I do think that Lomax was better than Hart, but an argument could be made either way. Hart was very fortunate to have played for Coryell. I would have liked to see Lomax play in that offense.

You can only compare what Murray is so far to what Lomax was at his best right? It's not fair to speculate on what Murray might be or reduce Lomax to year 3 only.

The table is the table until Murray earns the top spot.

 

[Ronin]

Lots of QB's don't have great games overall, but find a way to get it done in Q4. Kyler can't do that yet, and IMO he should in year 3.

I've seen this used a lot "X QB had 2 interception and didn't play well but the team still won. Kyler doesn't have that".

Most of the games we won, while they look like offensive blowouts we won because our D shut the opposition down. Start at game 1. That big win was built on the back of shutting down Henry, a FF sack on the 1 yard line, and shutting the Titans down. Same on the first Rams win. Same in most those early wins.

But the wins you mention where teams won despite bad QB play more often than not were because while the QB might not have been great overall they found ways to score when the chips were down.

So you're saying he needs everything to go right in order to win? I'm not saying I agree...just asking for a friend.

 

[Stout]

Didn't know if this was posted yet. But I thought it was a good take by Anquan.

Anquan Boldin: 'You would be a fool' to let QB Kyler Murray leave

NFL veteran wide receiver Anquan Boldin shared his thoughts with Wolf & Luke on Kyler Murray and the Cardinals' offseason talks.

arizonasports.com

There's a lot left unsaid about KM there. Basically, we're not getting the leadership we need out of him, or we have to have a team with tons of leaders to pick up his slack. Le sigh.

 

[BritCard]

So you're saying he needs everything to go right in order to win? I'm not saying I agree...just asking for a friend.

I'm saying nearly all wins are on the back of the QB, even the ones where the QB didn't play well. The only exceptions are the great running teams but I'd say maybe 3 of those in the league that you can rely on to run 60-70% and still win. Titans, Colts and Niners (not counting Ravens as Lamar runs so much).

It's not like I see lots of tight games on our roster at the end there where we scored 22 but the D gave up 24. Seahawks game probably the only one I think you can say our D was at fault for the loss.

Offense stunk vs Lions. D held Colts to 22. Offense stunk in the playoff game.

2nd Rams game is probably the most debatable but seeing as Kyler threw what was basically a pick 6 and an EZ pick I'm going to put that on the offense too.

 

[dscher]

There's a lot left unsaid about KM there. Basically, we're not getting the leadership we need out of him, or we have to have a team with tons of leaders to pick up his slack. Le sigh.

Well, we know Aaron Rodgers is a well rounded leader of men type QB and he can't routinely get past the divisional playoffs. I'm ok with Kyler being different in his ways as a man/QB.. I think these were all things we even discussed on this very board pre draft. I guess some fans got super pumped about the kid..I kinda kept that baseline about him, which was fine by me. I just wanted a good/solid QB we could build a winner around. I think we did that...now we all need to throw up some prayers and hope Keim can build something sustainable around him. IMO

 

[DVontel]

Most of the games we won, while they look like offensive blowouts we won because our D shut the opposition down. Start at game 1. That big win was built on the back of shutting down Henry, a FF sack on the 1 yard line, and shutting the Titans down. Same on the first Rams win.

So the games Kyler played excellent in, lol. Not sure these games were the best examples at all. Funny enough, the Urban Meyer Jaguars game is the probably the best & lone example.

 

[BritCard]

So the games Kyler played excellent in, lol. Not sure these games were the best examples at all. Funny enough, the Urban Meyer Jaguars game is the probably the best & lone example.

Kyler played great because he was given the opportunity to play great by a defense that kept the opponents off the field and gave them good field positions. I'm not denying he played great.

Which games exactly do you feel Kyler was let down by the defense and we otherwise could have won? Was it the one we scored 12? The one we scored 16? The one we scored 11 or the one where Kyler threw a pick six and an EZ interception that we would have won without them?

There are one two results the whole year where I'd say our offense was let down by the defense. The Vikings game, and the last Seahawks game.

 

[Stout]

Well, we know Aaron Rodgers is a well rounded leader of men type QB and he can't routinely get past the divisional playoffs. I'm ok with Kyler being different in his ways as a man/QB.. I think these were all things we even discussed on this very board pre draft. I guess some fans got super pumped about the kid..I kinda kept that baseline about him, which was fine by me. I just wanted a good/solid QB we could build a winner around. I think we did that...now we all need to throw up some prayers and hope Keim can build something sustainable around him. IMO

We'll see how it goes. He's able to be a different kind of QB and still be successful, but he has a whole host of other problems to fix before he can be that QB. Not refusing to re-enter playoff games would be a great start.

 

[Stout]

Kyler played great because he was given the opportunity to play great by a defense that kept the opponents off the field and gave them good field positions. I'm not denying he played great.

Which games exactly do you feel Kyler was let down by the defense and we otherwise could have won? Was it the one we scored 12? The one we scored 16? The one we scored 11 or the one where Kyler threw a pick six and an EZ interception that we would have won without them?

There are one two results the whole year where I'd say our offense was let down by the defense. The Vikings game, and the last Seahawks game.

Your definition of a great QB isn't what a great QB is. Great QB's can carry a defense when it's bad and will the team to victory seemingly on his own.