PJ1
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Ok. I thought this was just a flat out comparison. Not a point in time. Lomax as a pure pocket passer is something I don’t believe KM will achieve. JMHO
Let’s Take a Moment to Overreact to Kyler’s IG Page
- Thread starter TJ
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yeah I just meant same stage. Lomax was a better pocket passer, although to be fair part of why Neil got sacked so much is he held the ball so long because the Cards offense wanted to push the ball downfield. He definitely stood in the pocket better than Kyler does.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
He refused to re-enter a playoff game. A PLAYOFF GAME! To say he ISN'T light-years away mentally is a "ridiculous" statement. There's no denying he has physical talent and the talent to become great; no one here has ever denied that. There's also no denying that he needs to change his approach, mature a lot in the offseason, and make this team better.
Why do you and others blindly praise him from one side of your mouth (keyboard) and then make all kinds of excuses for his deficits with the "if only half the team were better" claims on the other? And I quote, "He can be a great NFL QB if he works hard, becomes more emotionally mature AND the Cardinal FO improves the OL, DL, WR depth, and the secondary." Your words. No, you can be a great QB on a crappy team and elevate them to be better. You can be a great QB on a crappy team and fail to win in the playoffs, then the understanding is it isn't on the QB. But a "star" QB that is only a "star" when everything is perfect around him isn't a star. Yet.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Mentally? Absolutely light years. We could go through the merry-go-round of why and what's wrong, which everyone on this board knows about. Or we could just say he refused to go back into a playoff game. He is, unquestionably, light years away from where he needs to be mentally. At least he was at the end of the season.
Can that change? Sure. Can he mature the way he needs to? Absolutely. It's possible. I just don't think it's probable, or that he'll mature fast enough. I mean, he has to do a compete 180 attitude-wise, and he needs to do it this offseason. He no longer gets years and years and years with the "oh, he's young, he's got time" excuses. His basic attitude needs to change now.
PACardsFan
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I'm sure that you're comparing Lomax in his prime to a 24 year old Murray. KM has a HUGE advantage with both his legs & ability to make the 1st guy miss. Lomax always a sack waiting to happen. He was sacked 61 times in 85, and never returned to his 84 form (4600 yds, 28 tds/16 picks) after being shellshocked from all the hits he took that year. KM's arm is every bit of what Lomax's was, and he's more accurate than Lomax was. I was a HUGE Lomax fan, but he was not as good as Murray.
gimpy
ASFN Lifer
Ala Matt Stafford?
PACardsFan
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You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not going to argue with someone who just won't accept the fact that Murray is the BEST young QB that we have EVER had. TRUTH is, that it would be idiotic to not extend him. With all the injuries we had down the stretch, I don't believe any QB in the NFL would have fared any better against the Rams in that playoff game. Our D did absolutely nothing to even help our offense to even have a chance in that game. By comparison, the Niners offense was just as bad in the 1st half of their game against the Packers. But, their D completely shut down a future HOF QB to give Garoppolo the opportunity to find just a little bit, but enough to win. Murray was not afforded that opportunity NOT ONCE in any game down the stretch. So, IMO, it's a dumb comment on your part to say that a QB doesn't need an OL, DL, WR depth, and a secondary in order to be great & take his team to the next level. We'll agree to disagree.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
I agree that Murray is the best young QB this team has maybe ever had, but I diverge in the fact that I think Murray crumbled down the stretch.
But he is a damn kid still. And he isn't playing on a world beater team. He needs to get better, but he is also a guy to build around. Both ideas can be true at the same time.
PACardsFan
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To say that Murray "completely" sucked the 2nd half of the season is totally false. Too many naysayers on this board have allowed the playoff game stats to try to lead people to believe that's how bad he was during the 2nd half of the season:
Week 13 @ Bears in horrible weather
11/15/123, 2 tds, 0 ints
59 rushing yards, 2 more touchdowns
VERY GOOD game
Week 14 vs Rams (lost 30-23)
32/49/383 yard, 0 tds/ 2 picks
61 yards rushing
Don't like the picks at all, but did account for 444 yards of offense. that does NOT completely suck
Week 15 @ Detroit (lost 30-12)
23/41/257, 1 td, 1 pick
3 rushing yards
This was a poor game by EVERYONE, including Murray
Week 16 vs Colts (lost 22-16)
27/43/245, 1 td, 0 picks
74 yards rushing
Not eye opening, but did create 320 yards of offense & didn't turn the ball over. Definitely NOT "completely sucks"
Week 17 beat Cowboys 25-22
26/38/263, 2 tds, 0 picks
44 yards rushing
VERY efficient game. Another game where he didn't completely suck, as you stated he did.
Week 18 lost to Seattle 38-30
28/39/240, 1 td, 0 picks
35 rushing yards
Again, not in the completely sucks category. What did suck was the 202 yards rushing that our D gave up
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
The easiest thing you can change is your attitude.
It's not like you are saying that he needs to learn conversational Mandarin.
He is still a kid. Sure he's likely been coddled his entire life, but people tend to mature as they get older. Look at Rodgers..dudes still a douche this many years later.
PACardsFan
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Other than the Lions game, I certainly do not see this as "crumbling". You might say as a team they crumbled. Many factors went into that. Murray's play was the least of those factors.
Week 13 @ Bears in horrible weather
11/15/123, 2 tds, 0 ints
59 rushing yards, 2 more touchdowns
VERY GOOD game
Week 14 vs Rams (lost 30-23)
32/49/383 yard, 0 tds/ 2 picks
61 yards rushing
Don't like the picks at all, but did account for 444 yards of offense. that does NOT completely suck
Week 15 @ Detroit (lost 30-12)
23/41/257, 1 td, 1 pick
3 rushing yards
This was a poor game by EVERYONE, including Murray
Week 16 vs Colts (lost 22-16)
27/43/245, 1 td, 0 picks
74 yards rushing
Not eye opening, but did create 320 yards of offense & didn't turn the ball over. Definitely NOT "completely sucks"
Week 17 beat Cowboys 25-22
26/38/263, 2 tds, 0 picks
44 yards rushing
VERY efficient game. Another game where he didn't completely suck, as you stated he did.
Week 18 lost to Seattle 38-30
28/39/240, 1 td, 0 picks
35 rushing yards
Again, not in the completely sucks category. What did suck was the 202 yards rushing that our D gave up
I agree with you on all this except your notes on detroit game, he had a couple prevent D chunk plays to get to that mundane 252 yards. Murray was not a franchise QB that game, he was awful
PACardsFan
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I did say he was bad in the Detroit game. Everyone was bad that day.
8-1 to 11-6 (plus the playoff loss equals 11-7). Bad second half of the season no matter how you slice it. Second year in a row where we couldn't win any playoff-clinching games despite everything being laid out nicely for us. Home record of 3-5 which was pathetic. Everyone talks of improvement, but we really have a lot further to go.
PJ1
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I am comparing Lomax in his prime as a pocket passer to Murray now. They both throw a good long ball but intermediate and short throws I take Lomax all day. Same with reading a defense. Murray running ability is far better than most all QB’s. You may believe Murray will get much better than he is now. I am not so sure.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
He crumbled leading the offense all game long. Look at the drive results. And his INTs were crippling plays....one ended a scoring drive, the other led to the Rams having the ball deep in Cardinals territory.
Yep.
Again, he failed to lead scoring drives. There were opportunities.
Nope never said that. In fact if you read the entirety of what I've said on this topic, Murray played well in the Cowboys and Bears games...and that's it.
Not including sacks, eh? He took some awful sacks that ended drives where he was at fault. And one TD? He wasn't good in this game either. You have to remember that a good chunk of those rushing yards came on ONE carry when the game was pretty much already over.
Murray played his worst football down the stretch. He had a few meh games early in the year, but he didn't have a stretch of six games where he didn't play well in four of them. If the Cardinals win ONE more, they are NFC West Champions.
QuebecCard
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1. Let's not confuse fans with teammates. You may have some sense of the feeling in the former but none amongst the latter.
2. A sprained ankle to a QB who depends on mobility is not a minor injury.
In todays Pass heavy league a game below 280 passing yards that you don't win, is a bad game. especially if you throw around 40 times...
look the whole team played bad in the second half. I don't know if it's the right time to pay a big chunk to a QB that isn't proved.
Gosh, I'm not even sold on paying any QB more than 15% of the Cap. There is even a good argument to not pay your QB more than 12.5% of the CAP since none has won the SB over that threeshold.
If you are wondering that is this year between 26 and 31.25 Mio $
And I think that sounds about right, since if you allocate 24% (50 Mio Rodgers contract) or 20.65% (asking price by Kyler)of the whole team cap to 1 Person, how you want to get 11 starters on both sides of O and D and still pay ST and the rest of the 53 man rooster. A good WR wants 20 Mio, a middle of the pack WR like Kirk, commands 15 Mio ... a LT 15-20 Mio good C 10 Mio a RB 4-10 Mio proably even more. So if you want at least 2 Targets and somewhat of a O-line you spend 35 Mio for WR, 40 for O-line and than even with 4 first round picks that play on other positions you have around 70 Mio for 41 (1.7 Mio each) players no good CB ~20 Mio, no good TE, RB, OLB, FS/SS or Kicker. Basically with how the Veteran minimum and draft picks are, you need to sign at least 2-3 veteran minimum vage and have 4-7th rounder that can play or are servicable backups. and that still doesn't give you enough money to sign a middle of the Pack OLB,CB, maybe a TE.
This QB need to understand, you can't win alone, they don't do it, not even Brady. Mahomes is seeing what his contract is doing to the team, Prescott as well, Rodgers, Matty Iced and so on...
Your team goes just as far as your talent can bring you and if everyone wants a big contract more than a Ring ... nobody on that team will win one.
Jetstream Green
Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
The only comp I can think for him was back in the day and his contemporary Dan Fouts. I am tempted to say Marino because I saw games when Lomax was on and he was unstoppable, strong arm throwing darts in a limited box of a pocket, but Dan Marino is freaking Dan Marino and I won't let my homerism go that far lol
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Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
So, basically, "Yes, you laid out all this information but NEENER NEENER I DISAGREE?" Got it.
BtW, you said the team nneds to improve all of those positions in order for KM to be great. DL depth helps your team, but literally has no difference as to how great a QB is. Your definition of great is wholly underwhelming. And, BTW, I AGREED before that he's the best young QB we've ever drafted. Not like there's much competition there. smh But, please, return to your isolated "KM is Teflon" world.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
In theory it is, but to a cocksure kid who is so perfect he doesn't need to study because he just "sees" the game, good luck convincing him it even needs changed. That's the problem--will he ever allow himself to be convinced it can change? Has there been anything encouraging since the debacle of a playoff game to suggest this, or has the reverse been true? It sure sounds like he's doubling down on no need to change his approach.
PACardsFan
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My bitch is that unless Murray played INSANELY well, everyone immediately said he played horribly. The Cardinals could not win unless Murray was great. And that isn't fair to Murray. Murray may have not been GREAT in EVERY game, but he played well in EVERY game with the exception of the Lions game.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
I don't know. I think even if Murray wasn't great, he still could have won at least ONE of those games.
And it's a trend with him...his play is noticeably poorer at the end of seasons.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
We learn more from failure than we do from success. Murray would be absolutely delusional if he didn't see his own failings. The Cardinals are screwed if that's the case. Time will tell, and anyone who tells you they know what is going to happen is full of it.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Bottom line: Can Kyler make plays IN THE POCKET?
If anyone thinks he can achieve next-level success by scampering around and tossing hail Mary’s while cutting and running from the pocket, you couldn’t be more misinformed…
In his first 3 seasons, he has yet to show an ability to stand in the pocket and make critical throws…
Is that because he literally can’t see over his lineman? Or, does he play scared and simply refuses to absorb the hits (albeit scaled down in the new NFL) that come when you’re committed to winning - A.K.A. standing in the pocket to make the big time throws?
I don’t see this fatal flaw changing… ever.
If anyone thinks he can achieve next-level success by scampering around and tossing hail Mary’s while cutting and running from the pocket, you couldn’t be more misinformed…
In his first 3 seasons, he has yet to show an ability to stand in the pocket and make critical throws…
Is that because he literally can’t see over his lineman? Or, does he play scared and simply refuses to absorb the hits (albeit scaled down in the new NFL) that come when you’re committed to winning - A.K.A. standing in the pocket to make the big time throws?
I don’t see this fatal flaw changing… ever.
