Let’s Talk About Lamb

[MadCardDisease]

Lamb is not Larry Fitzgerald.

Also, I'm not really sure what the argument here is. Never take an offensive lineman over a WR?

If you try to fill a need you may get burnt and pass up on a Future HOF player.

 

[Solar7]

If you try to fill a need you may get burnt and pass up on a Future HOF player.

Yes, if any of these OTs were obviously poor players, along with the rest of the defensive players on the board, and Lamb/Ruggs/Jeudy were somehow surefire hall of famers with 7 teams beforehand passing on them, I would agree with you.

But the OTs are very strong players, the WRs don't have a confirmed #1, and loading up at a position only to criminally ignore others when they're our biggest need is not a winning strategy. If Lamb is a surefire HOFer, why bother acquiring Hopkins?

You have to spread the wealth to win in this league, and you can't give up on rookies every year to draft the same position the next year. You'll never catch up to anyone if you don't develop your players and cast guys aside immediately because of one down year.

It doesn't have to be an OT. It just shouldn't be a WR.

 

[MadCardDisease]

It doesn't have to be an OT. It just shouldn't be a WR.

It doesn't have to be a WR but I have no problem if it is.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It doesn't have to be a WR but I have no problem if it is.

This. I understand people not wanting a WR as the first option, but talking about it as if it shouldn't even be considered makes no sense to me. I get that we may look pretty stacked there this year, but our number 2 is old and bound to regress sooner than later and our number 3 can't stay healthy and hasn't been anything special when he is healthy. WR certainly isn't a major need at this point, but it is enough of a future need that I wouldn't pass on one at #8 if he is the best player on the board.

 

[Solar7]

It doesn't have to be a WR but I have no problem if it is.

I'm not sure why you're arguing against OT or otherwise if you're ambivalent about the whole thing, but right on then.

This. I understand people not wanting a WR as the first option, but talking about it as if it shouldn't even be considered makes no sense to me. I get that we may look pretty stacked there this year, but our number 2 is old and bound to regress sooner than later and our number 3 can't stay healthy and hasn't been anything special when he is healthy. WR certainly isn't a major need at this point, but it is enough of a future need that I wouldn't pass on one at #8 if he is the best player on the board.

I'm arguing against it as I suspect others are, because we see how atrocious this offensive line and defense are, and feel we can't win or grow unless we address it. Throwing another washout 3rd or 4th round pick who never amounts to anything on the line or defense is my biggest fear. I'm sick of losing, and I can't help but envision another year of Kyler running around in the backfield and looking skittish and panicked unless we finally do something about it.

I think back to the Packers having "great receivers" and Brett Hundley in for Aaron Rodgers spending a good chunk of a season struggling to do anything of worth.

The three defenders are so great that I can accept them and envision a team who isn't 32nd in defense, but middle of the pack.

 

[DVontel]

If you try to fill a need you may get burnt and pass up on a Future HOF player.

I don’t know why some here keep saying this like Wills isn’t BPA over Lamb & arguably Wirfs is, too.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Yes, if any of these OTs were obviously poor players, along with the rest of the defensive players on the board, and Lamb/Ruggs/Jeudy were somehow surefire hall of famers with 7 teams beforehand passing on them, I would agree with you.

But the OTs are very strong players, the WRs don't have a confirmed #1, and loading up at a position only to criminally ignore others when they're our biggest need is not a winning strategy. If Lamb is a surefire HOFer, why bother acquiring Hopkins?

You have to spread the wealth to win in this league, and you can't give up on rookies every year to draft the same position the next year. You'll never catch up to anyone if you don't develop your players and cast guys aside immediately because of one down year.

It doesn't have to be an OT. It just shouldn't be a WR.

So, to get your support - the Cards must guarantee what can't possibly be guaranteed.

Criminally ignore? When not abusing adjectives, you move to adverbs.

And, the guy who says "people are clamouring" to replace Allen - now argues this "hole" in the defence should be allowed to develop.

Entertaining, to say the least.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I'm not sure why you're arguing against OT or otherwise if you're ambivalent about the whole thing, but right on then.

I'm not arguing against taking a OT. In fact in my latest mock draft I had the Cards taking Wills:

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/madcards-2020-cardinals-mock-draft-v1-0.346383/


All I'm saying is if they take a WR I'm fine with it. Fitz is old and I'm not sold on any of the young guys stepping up.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not sure why you're arguing against OT or otherwise if you're ambivalent about the whole thing, but right on then.


I'm arguing against it as I suspect others are, because we see how atrocious this offensive line and defense are, and feel we can't win or grow unless we address it. Throwing another washout 3rd or 4th round pick who never amounts to anything on the line or defense is my biggest fear. I'm sick of losing, and I can't help but envision another year of Kyler running around in the backfield and looking skittish and panicked unless we finally do something about it.

I think back to the Packers having "great receivers" and Brett Hundley in for Aaron Rodgers spending a good chunk of a season struggling to do anything of worth.

The three defenders are so great that I can accept them and envision a team who isn't 32nd in defense, but middle of the pack.

The O-Line was not atrocious last year. I want to say it was K9 (not 100% that it was him) that was posting numbers about the O-Line and how it was a pretty average unit last year.

I am not suggesting that they don't have plenty of room to be improved, but this idea that the O-Line was a dumpster fire or something of the sort just is not true.

Kyler also wouldn't have been running for his life nearly as much as he was had done a better job himself of maneuvering within the pocket and avoided running into sacks. He was responsible for nearly half his sacks.

As to the bolded part of your comment. First of all I personally have never suggested that Rodgers has an elite WR core. He has Adams who is elite, but otherwise no one else is all that special. Also it still takes a good QB to take advantage of great WR talent and I don't think I would particularly put Hundley into that category. If anything I would say the receivers are the ones that suffer when the QB play is underwhelming, but they help the QB a ton when they have a QB that can make the right reads and get the ball to the right guy.

 

[Solar7]

So, to get your support - the Cards must guarantee what can't possibly be guaranteed.

Criminally ignore? When not abusing adjectives, you move to adverbs.

And, the guy who says "people are clamouring" to replace Allen - now argues this "hole" in the defence should be allowed to develop.

Entertaining, to say the least.

It has nothing to do with guarantees. Like DVontel is saying though, it seems like everyone is writing off the OTs like they can't possibly be BPA.

And of course Allen should have a chance to develop, but we don't have young guys waiting in the wings to replace Peters, like we do at WR. Taking a risk to let Allen develop as a starter is dramatically more risky than hoping a combination of Kirk/Isabella/Butler/Johnson can emerge to be a #2 or #3. I'd argue Kirk is already a reasonable #2 if healthy.

 

[Harry]

The most common gripes I see of Lamb are
(1) He is inconsistent at getting clean releases
(2) He is an inconsistent blocker
(3) He ran a very simple route tree against B12 defenses

It’s probably hard to find “bad tape” for a guy that played in an elite offense against trashy defenses.

So much of what separates him is athleticism and technique. Don’t overly focus on Big 12 defenses. In horse racing when a horse wins easily it’s time may be undependable because the horse might have been able to run faster if challenged.

 

[Solar7]

The O-Line was not atrocious last year. I want to say it was K9 (not 100% that it was him) that was posting numbers about the O-Line and how it was a pretty average unit last year.

I am not suggesting that they don't have plenty of room to be improved, but this idea that the O-Line was a dumpster fire or something of the sort just is not true.

Kyler also wouldn't have been running for his life nearly as much as he was had done a better job himself of maneuvering within the pocket and avoided running into sacks. He was responsible for nearly half his sacks.

As to the bolded part of your comment. First of all I personally have never suggested that Rodgers has an elite WR core. He has Adams who is elite, but otherwise no one else is all that special. Also it still takes a good QB to take advantage of great WR talent and I don't think I would particularly put Hundley into that category. If anything I would say the receivers are the ones that suffer when the QB play is underwhelming, but they help the QB a ton when they have a QB that can make the right reads and get the ball to the right guy.

I've posted this multiple times, but there's tons pointing to the OL being bad.

Specifically, Kyler's amount of hurries. He was top 5 in the NFL. That's aside of sacks, where we can blame about half on him holding the ball too long, but his hurries were through the roof. His evasion rate, however, was best in the NFL. He got away from those hurries because of his athleticism.

PFF and Football Outsiders rate us in the bottom 3rd of the league. I don't particularly love them, but in terms of ratings, there's not a lot out there, and most of the defense of the line is based off of metrics that don't show the big picture.

As far as the GB comparison goes, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, so apologies if that's how it came across. In another post, Rodgers' great WRs were brought up, and I was making the link because it seemed like they were pretty awesome, but our current backup QB couldn't do anything with them. My point about Hundley is that if Kyler's subpar line gets him hurt, and we have to deal with Hundley throwing the ball for an extended amount of time, going four deep at WR won't really matter.

At the end of the day, a #1 overall QB, handpicked by his "offensive genius" head coach, should be able to make this offense dynamic with the combo of a top-3 WR, an HOF WR with a knack for making plays when it counts, and two 2nd-round picks. If he/they can't, and we really need to invest in Lamb to make things work, there are big problems.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I've posted this multiple times, but there's tons pointing to the OL being bad.

Specifically, Kyler's amount of hurries. He was top 5 in the NFL. That's aside of sacks, where we can blame about half on him holding the ball too long, but his hurries were through the roof. His evasion rate, however, was best in the NFL. He got away from those hurries because of his athleticism.

PFF and Football Outsiders rate us in the bottom 3rd of the league. I don't particularly love them, but in terms of ratings, there's not a lot out there, and most of the defense of the line is based off of metrics that don't show the big picture.

As far as the GB comparison goes, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, so apologies if that's how it came across. In another post, Rodgers' great WRs were brought up, and I was making the link because it seemed like they were pretty awesome, but our current backup QB couldn't do anything with them. My point about Hundley is that if Kyler's subpar line gets him hurt, and we have to deal with Hundley throwing the ball for an extended amount of time, going four deep at WR won't really matter.

At the end of the day, a #1 overall QB, handpicked by his "offensive genius" head coach, should be able to make this offense dynamic with the combo of a top-3 WR, an HOF WR with a knack for making plays when it counts, and two 2nd-round picks. If he/they can't, and we really need to invest in Lamb to make things work, there are big problems.

Don't think for a moment that KK believes that he can't make his system work with available personnel.

The question is whether he believes that he can make it even more dynamic with Lamb, and for Keim, it's whether this selection is the best way to address the post-Fitz plan.

You harp on planning, strategy, etc... but, somehow, fail to see that Lamb is or could be very much part of forward-thinking.

 

[Solar7]

Don't think for a moment that KK believes that he can't make his system work with available personnel.

The question is whether he believes that he can make it even more dynamic with Lamb, and for Keim, it's whether this selection is the best way to address the post-Fitz plan.

You harp on planning, strategy, etc... but, somehow, fail to see that Lamb is or could be very much part of forward-thinking.

I'm saying that Lamb represents the smallest combination of short term and long term success.

Yes, Fitz might leave next year, Kirk might continue to get hurt, the young WRs might not pan out, but there's players on the roster that could mitigate that. If you want to address almost any other position we might take at 8, there's scarier situations across the roster at OT/G, ILB, DT/DE, and CB.

 

[daves]

First Round WRs who are dominant:

2013 D. Hopkins #1 performer from that draft

2014 M. Evans #1 performer from that draft
2014 OBJ #2 performer from that draft
2014 B Cooks #4 performer from that draft

2015 A Cooper #1 performer from that draft

2018 DJ Moore #1 performer from that draft
2018 C Ridley #3 performer from that draft

Meanwhile, in the question mark, mediocre or bad category in the first round, just since 2015, you have:

Marquise Brown (of course he is TBD)
N'Keal Harry
Corey Davis - #5 Overall
Mike Williams - #7 Overall
John Ross - #9 Overall
Corey Coleman
Will Fuller
Josh Doctson
Laquon Treadwell
Kevin White - #7 overall
Devante Parker
Nelson Agholor
Breshad Perriman
Phillip Dorsett

...Lots more busts or poor players than success stories in recent history.

Why list positive and negative examples, when the analysis has already been done over the last 25 years. These two articles are really interesting. TLDR: You have a bit better chance to draft a successful player OL than WR.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...e-safest-riskiest-at-the-top-of-the-nfl-draft

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-some-positions-riskier-to-pick-than-others-in-the-nfl-draft

...dave

 

[AZCrazy]

We'll be fine, whoever we pick. They will make us a lot better.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I'm saying that Lamb represents the smallest combination of short term and long term success.

Yes, Fitz might leave next year, Kirk might continue to get hurt, the young WRs might not pan out, but there's players on the roster that could mitigate that. If you want to address almost any other position we might take at 8, there's scarier situations across the roster at OT/G, ILB, DT/DE, and CB.

Not interested in "mitigation" when the possibility of excelling is there for the picking. There is no year one starter at OT/G in this draft, short of injury, who will replace our present starters. There are no CB/ILB beyond Okudah/Simmons that rates a #8 pick - and there is precisely one DT/DE - and I would not be averse to his selection.

 

[Solar7]

Not interested in "mitigation" when the possibility of excelling is there for the picking. There is no year one starter at OT/G in this draft, short of injury to our present starters. There are no CB/ILB beyond Okudah/Simmons that rates a #8 pick - and there is precisely one DT/DE - and I would not be averse to his selection.

There's no year one starter for this team at WR, short of injury to our present starters.

Lamb is simply not playing over Larry Fitzgerald or DeAndre Hopkins. Kirk played just as many years with Kyler as Lamb did: one.

Just to repeat, I like Lamb a lot. He's going to be good. We just can't afford to invest in him.

 

[BritCard]

Just like taking an OL at 8 when we signed up our best OL from last season (before he hit IR)

Our best OL from last season was the guy that never played a game? That kinda proves why we need to draft a tackle.

 

[BritCard]

First Round WRs who are dominant:

2013 D. Hopkins #1 performer from that draft

2014 M. Evans #1 performer from that draft
2014 OBJ #2 performer from that draft
2014 B Cooks #4 performer from that draft

2015 A Cooper #1 performer from that draft

2018 DJ Moore #1 performer from that draft
2018 C Ridley #3 performer from that draft

Bust rate for WR in the top 20 is much higher than OT

 

[BritCard]

Some people have lost all sense of reason. If you think we're are drafting WR at 8 after trading for Nuk you're going to be seriously disappointed.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Why list positive and negative examples, when the analysis has already been done over the last 25 years. These two articles are really interesting. TLDR: You have a bit better chance to draft a successful player OL than WR.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...e-safest-riskiest-at-the-top-of-the-nfl-draft

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-some-positions-riskier-to-pick-than-others-in-the-nfl-draft

...dave

makes me want to draft Simmons even more.

 

[GuernseyCard]

There's no year one starter for this team at WR, short of injury to our present starters.

Lamb is simply not playing over Larry Fitzgerald or DeAndre Hopkins. Kirk played just as many years with Kyler as Lamb did: one.

Just to repeat, I like Lamb a lot. He's going to be good. We just can't afford to invest in him.

Unlike the O-line our wideouts in the KK scheme are in rotation depending on the call.

Lamb will get his snaps.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Some people have lost all sense of reason. If you think we're are drafting WR at 8 after trading for Nuk you're going to be seriously disappointed.

Well, someone will be and you shouldn't exclude yourself.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Look at the Steelers with Brown and JuJu in 2018, 4 in Offense. Without Brown in 2019 30 in offense. I no Ross got hurt but it was a disaster when he was playing. JuJu got doubled and no one else could catch. Having two stud WR is how you win. And if you think Larry is still a stud I have 4 quards I will trade you that are studs too.