Let the Beanie watch begin

[CardLogic]

I just got to get the facts straight thats all.

That's why we like keepin' you around...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

After that, slotting becomes more of a factor except for RBs and QBs who generally are paid more than slot. Note the word "generally". DEs may average more in the long run but RBs and QBs have more leverage with a rookie contract.

Kudos to you for noting how my 'argument' was busted but I was only stating my opinion - which will be proven to be right or wrong .

Let's get Beanie signed..

you do know that the bolded language is not an opinion, but rather a fact that can be proven or disproven. and again, without wanting to take the time to go through every draft going back in the day, i think you'd be proven flat out wrong. you're making arguments without providing any supporting facts. i'll bet if someone here wants to do research they'll discover that RBs are NOT "paid more than slot" and certainly not more than DEs as rookies. RBs may be a sexy position to fans, but teams actually devalue RBs compared to most positions, beginning with the draft (hence why so many tend to fall in drafts), and then throughout their careers as joeshmo evidenced with average salary.

 

[CardLogic]

He sucks at being smart and proactive with negotiations and he sucks at "player" evaluation and everybody wants us to lighten up cuz we went to a Superbowl under his watch. But what exactly does he do again??

Ahhhhhh, thats right. Firm Handshake. Warm Smile.

Simple.

You seem to be the one over-simplifying. I'll agree proactive Graves is not; but the comment regarding his intelligence is unsupported. He has gotten done the deals which the organization has deemed prudent to get done. The one they have gotten "beat" on was Fitzgerald, and that's mainly because Larry is a super-freak! Other than that I think he has pretty much achieved what the organization has wanted to. There is usually a lot of talk in the forums about whom they didn't sign (FA's) but thats just idle speculation at best.

Regarding Graves player evaluation skills: How would you (or any of us) know? All we can really use to measure that aspect is on the field performance, where it appears that the Cardinals have done fairly well. It doesn't matter whether it's Graves himself, or the staff he manages which are making the evaluations/decisions on players. All that counts is the outcome.

 

[CardLogic]

I think AtlHawksFan is making an argument that was, perhaps, true years ago in the NFL, but no longer is. The position of RB does not hold the influence (read $$$) that is once did.

 

[TJ]

What part of being in the Super Bowl don't you understand?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The two are mutually exclusive. Graves cannot negotiate 1st round contract in a timely fashion. You can't argue with that. 0-6 in 6 years.

If your response to everything we do bad is, "well we went to the Superbowl," then you are severely mistaken. This team can get better, and will.

 

[Buckybird]

I still wouldn't put Graves in the top 1/2 of the 32 GM's in the league.

 

[vince56]

I still wouldn't put Graves in the top 1/2 of the 32 GM's in the league.

You're right. The superbowl team loaded with talent at almost every position, primarily through the draft no less... he had nothing to do with that I'm sure. He is only the GM.

 

[D-Dogg]

I love this time of year.

 

[lauraw]

Open statement to Rod Graves: Get Chris Wells signed, even if you have to pay him a dollar or 2 more than you want.. MBidwill will be glad you did, believe us!!!

 

[Dr. Jones]

I was expecting this to be done by tonight!!!!!!!!

I am getting restless.

 

[lauraw]

AUW, I hear you!! I am stressing about Beanie and our running game, that is for sure!!

 

[AtlHawksFan]

Not sure what Stafford has to do with it? What teams feel about and value different positions are directly related to how much they pay those veterans, just becuase they are rookies doenst change that value system. There is no different value system on rookies.

Once again it has happened 6 out of 6 times with 5 different agents and multiple different draft slots with multiple different positions, and multiple different scenerios concerning players signed aournd that draft pick. What is the constant? Graves is the constant. If it happened once or even half the time you would have the arguement but it isnt its every single time. That right there should make anyone positive what the problem is, its not hard to see and draw a conclusion. As for my own insight, others on this board know exactly what my background is, of where I still have contacts. I know for a fact agents do not like dealing with the guy, not beucase he is a bad guy, but because he is plodding, rarely gets back to you in a timely basis on counteroffers, and condensending in negotiations. Thats direct quotes from a few agencies I still have contacts with.

I'm not questioning your background in fact, I find your posts interesting and I always make it a point to read them. As for your comments on Graves, could it be that agents don't like dealing with him because he's a tough negotiator? A good negotiator always seeks to gain a psychological advantage over the other party and some of Graves actions you described can be used to do exactly that. The only way to judge any GM is by the product he puts on the field and the team that Graves built (Whiz gets too much credit here) played in the Super Bowl.

 

[SunsTzu]

The only way to judge any GM is by the product he puts on the field and the team that Graves built (Whiz gets too much credit here) played in the Super Bowl.

Look at the teams Graves built pre-Whiz and try saying this with a straight face. I'm not going to bash Graves but I don't see how you can lay blame anyone else when talking about failing to sign first round picks.

 

[TJ]

I'm not questioning your background in fact, I find your posts interesting and I always make it a point to read them. As for your comments on Graves, could it be that agents don't like dealing with him because he's a tough negotiator? A good negotiator always seeks to gain a psychological advantage over the other party and some of Graves actions you described can be used to do exactly that. The only way to judge any GM is by the product he puts on the field and the team that Graves built (Whiz gets too much credit here) played in the Super Bowl.

Most of the talent you see on the field is from the 2004 drafts til now. The difference? That is when Denny Green came along and taught Graves how to evaluate players. That's how we got players like Dockett, Dansby, Kurt Warner, Fitz, B-Train, etc. on this team. Whis perpetuated this ability. Graves gets little credit for these moves.

As Joe is trying to explain to you, it is not that he is a tough negotiator, he just has no sense of urgency. Call him hard if you want to, but the players still get what they want in the end: fair market deals.

By the way, this isn't selling cars, these are contract negotiations. The idea is to get fair compromise between two parties. If your tactic is to enter these negotiations to get a psychological edge over the other party, you not only screw yourself in the negotiation, you lose rapport with the other party. Which in this case, you will probably have to see again if you have another client that wants to play for your football team.

 

[mjb21aztd]

very nice so glad this is over, great job Graves getting Wells singed can't wait to see him in preseason

 

[nidan]

but the players still get what they want in the end: fair market deals.

I find that rather amusing, you really believe that the players and their agents are the good guys in this dance don't you.

"Fair Market Deals" rubbish, every players and their agent is trying to get as far above that mythical and highly subjective line as possible. Nothing wrong with that, the Cardinals try to pull the other way such is called negotiation.

But to suggest that the players and their agents are all nice guys and the problem is all on the Cardinals side is BS

 

[az jam]

I find that rather amusing, you really believe that the players and their agents are the good guys in this dance don't you.

"Fair Market Deals" rubbish, every players and their agent is trying to get as far above that mythical and highly subjective line as possible. Nothing wrong with that, the Cardinals try to pull the other way such is called negotiation.

But to suggest that the players and their agents are all nice guys and the problem is all on the Cardinals side is BS

Agree, all the nice guys are working on Wall Street!!

 

[40yearfan]

Most of the talent you see on the field is from the 2004 drafts til now. The difference? That is when Denny Green came along and taught Graves how to evaluate players. That's how we got players like Dockett, Dansby, Kurt Warner, Fitz, B-Train, etc. on this team. Whis perpetuated this ability. Graves gets little credit for these moves.

As Joe is trying to explain to you, it is not that he is a tough negotiator, he just has no sense of urgency. Call him hard if you want to, but the players still get what they want in the end: fair market deals.

By the way, this isn't selling cars, these are contract negotiations. The idea is to get fair compromise between two parties. If your tactic is to enter these negotiations to get a psychological edge over the other party, you not only screw yourself in the negotiation, you lose rapport with the other party. Which in this case, you will probably have to see again if you have another client that wants to play for your football team.

Right. If anything bad happens, it's Graves fault. If anything good happens, anyone else gets the credit. Try putting your hatred aside for a little bit and look at what you are saying honestly. Not only does it not make any sense, it shows the extreme bias you have for Graves. If you are not satisfied with us making the SB last year and being able to keep our core players this year, you certainly aren't going to be satisfied with any GM we might get to replace him. I don't know of anyone who could have done a better job.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

Why all the piss and vinegar?

Beanie is signed....and don't call him chris.