Let's Rag on D'Antoni (and get it out of our system)

Irish

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I keep reading posts that sound like they want to fire D'Antoni. News Flash, he's gone.

I think that his legacy is that he had some major blind spots, but at the same time he routinely gets a bad rap on certain subjects. If anything, the repeated mischaracterizations of Mike distract from focusing on the stuff he really was guilty of.

Let's being with a basic truth. Mike was a very successful coach and it was not just luck. He took teams to the WCF and was competative even when dealing with injuries. People who get on him for not winning it all should look at how many other coaches have not won it either. But beyond that generic criticism tharer are some mythgs about Mike as well as some major blind spots.

MYTHS

Mike doesn't care about defense: He did, he just didn't put enough focus on it and made some trade-offs that made things appear worse than they were. First, his "no fouls" meant that other teams got more layups than is often permitted. Fouling doesn't keep the other team from scoring, but does cut down on the opponent's shooting percentage. Another issue was the usual focus was on forcing turnovers. As it was, the Suns were usually in the top 10 in lowest points given up per possession.

Some players like Rose and Pike did not play because of being very poor defenders. But at the same time, he wouldn't play guys who couldn't score.

I think a more accurate statement is that he didn't have them practice defense enough and had an overly simplistic scheme because of it. He seemed to think defense was strictly about energy which made them inconsistent on defense.

Mike Preferred Small Ball: It is more accurate to say he preffered "speedball". Given a choice, he'd rather have a small fast team than a large slow team. But it wasn't small he liked, just blazing speed. In the end, even he had to admit that small fast was not enough against the elite teams and he pushed for the Shaq deal. But his preference was for faster and faster guys who can shoot.

Part of his philosophy was to offset disadvantages on one end with disadvantages on the other end. Ideally the smallder guy would use speed to pester the opponent and big opponents would not be able to stop the small guy. But the issue was creating mismathes and not just go small for its own sake.

REAL PROBLEMS FROM D'ANTONI

Hated Rookies: D'Antoni hated having to teach young players how to play. While some draft picks were traded just to save money, some were traded because Mike refused to teach these guys how to play. Mike would rather load up on guys like Pike and Marks who know how to play, even if their bodies don't actully produce anything.

Young guys who can play and need to get the experience can be a pain. They distract him from focusing in on his core 8 guys. Marks never complained. Rose complained and Mike wanted to get rid of him.

Refused to Develop Depth: D'Antoni treated every regular season game as if it was a playoff game and always had a short bench. This meant that whenever there were injureis, there was never any proven backups. In 2006-07 series with the Spurs, the team loses two key guys and D'Antoni ends up with a six man rotation that runs out of gas in the end.

Fixated On Imposing His Will ON The Opponents: Rather than taking advantage of weaknesses of the opponents, he tried to impose his speedball approach no matter what. It made the Suns terribly predictable.

Didn't Adjust Style To Fit His Personnel: He got one of the great low post offensive players in the history of the NBA and ust him at the high post to set picks. He has an exceptional post up wing who is used as a center where he's overwhelmed until the sieres is over, when Diaw begins tearing Finley appart.

In a similar manner, the Suns defense kept putting Shaq in position where he was burned on the pick and roll every time. Rather than adjusting to his personnel, he has only one scheme and their defense is shredded.

Offense Was Too Unstructured: Mike had a backup point guard who is not a natural playmaker. But rather than build an offense that deals with these limitations, he continues to use an unstrucutred offense that only Nash can run. Worse, when Bowen would mug Nash, there was no backup plan plus guys were standing around waiting for Nash to do something.

Quick Shot Obsession: D'Antoni's discovery that it was easier to score before the defense was set was a major innovation. Other coaches would penalize players who shot too quickly, even when open. D'Antoni pushed for quick shots to the point when guys were shooting even when not open.


PORTER'S WORLD

There seems to be evidence that Kerr was getting frustrated by some of this stuff and hired Porter to continue the up tempo style, but also makde some adjustments. Hopefully he'll rethink some of the stuff D'Antoni was doing and come up with a new approach.

I expect Porter will do some different things that we won't like. But I think we need to be paient and give him the beneift of the doubt.
 
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HooverDam

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That guy was an idiot; fun teams, 55+ win seasons, runs into the playoffs, sold out arenas, who would want any of that junk?

Give me an over the hill Center, an unqualified GM, and a team hamstrung by bad moves any day.
 

JS22

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That guy was an idiot; fun teams, 55+ win seasons, runs into the playoffs, sold out arenas, who would want any of that junk?

Give me an over the hill Center, an unqualified GM, and a team hamstrung by bad moves any day.

Yet they never made it to the finals. D'antoni was lucky to have an all-star filled roster and couldn't do a damn thing with it.

Now their window has essentially closed. Such a shame.
 
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Irish

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Yet they never made it to the finals. D'antoni was lucky to have an all-star filled roster and couldn't do a damn thing with it.

Now their window has essentially closed. Such a shame.

I don't buy the "window is closed" argument. It's not as wide open as I might like, but it is not closed.
 

HooverDam

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Yet they never made it to the finals. D'antoni was lucky to have an all-star filled roster and couldn't do a damn thing with it.

Now their window has essentially closed. Such a shame.

And he never had the most talented team in the conference, so its no surprise. Year 1, the team had absolutely no bench (Stephen Hunter, Jimmy Jackson, and a yet to be developed Barbosa) and an injured JJ. Year 2 they had no Amare. Year 3 they should've won the West, but got screwed. Last year they had an aging Nash and made a terrible trade for Shaq.

Anyone being realistic with themselves should be able to realize that D'Antoni probably did all that could be realistically expected with the rosters he had. The NBA, more than any other pro sport, is determined by the players and not as much by the coaches. When you have a Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq (young), Duncan, or Hakeem, you win titles, when you don't, then you don't.

Was D'Antoni perfect? Not at all. I hated his short rotations, his lack of developing youth, his poor decisions as GM (a job he should've never been given, a job that shouldn't have had Bryan Colangelo driven from it), and his apparent compliance with ownership to sell away draft picks.
 
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Irish

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I am still puzzled about why trading Marion for Shaq is percieved as such a terrible trade. Would having Marion have given the Suns a better chance against the Spurs? I really really doubt it.

As it was, Marion had developed into a locker room cancer He's contemplating opting out of his contract this summer, which suggests he's not the brightest buld in the lamp.

Shaq came to the Suns off a hip injury that had him sidelined for quite a while. After struggling with an offense that had him at the high post :confused:, the Suns finished the regular season with a record of 15 and 5.

A year ago Marion and KT "held" Duncan to 26.8 ppg and 57.3% shooting. This year Duncan scored slightly less (24.8 ppg) and Tim shot only 49.5% due to some decent defense by Shaq.

Game 2 - 8 of 20
Game 4 6 of 18
Game 5 - 13 of 28

TD' only game over 50% was in the Game 3 disaster.

IMHO, Shaq's ability to defend the low post made this a good trade. I think the Suns can replace what Marion brought to the team, but the Suns getting killed at the low post was something they have not had in a very long time.
 

HooverDam

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The most important thing Marion brought to the Suns that most fans overlook is his ability to switch on the pick and roll. Could he stop Duncan? Nope, neither can anyone. Can he stop Parker? No, but he could at least stay in front of him. Marion gave the Suns someone to put on Parker (allowing Nash to hide on Bowen), who could then switch to TD on the pick and roll. Shaq has never, even in his prime, been a good pick and roll defender. Parker ate the Suns up this year even worse than in the past it seemed, and I think part of that was since Marion was missing.

Furthermore, from an off the court perspective, the Shaq trade screwed the Suns from having any chance at being flexible. If Marion hated Phoenix as much as everyone claimed, maybe he would've opted out at the end of this year and given the Suns some cap relief. As it is now, the Suns have to hope and pray that whomever they get at 15 can come in and be a contributor right away, which is not at all a sure thing.

Don't forget, Shaq will probably take off a huge number of games next year with phantom injuries, dog it all throughout the regular season, and say he'll turn it on when it matters. Say what you want about Marion, but he rarely missed games and always hustled (even though he did have off nights, like anyone).

I believe it was self evident from last years series with the Spurs (which I still contend the Suns would've won sans suspensions) that the team with Amare-Marion-KT on the front line was the best lineup against the Spurs.
 

SirStefan32

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The most important thing Marion brought to the Suns that most fans overlook is his ability to switch on the pick and roll.
Yes, he could switch from Parker to Duncan and watch Duncan as he scores at will.


Could he stop Duncan? Nope, neither can anyone.
Other than KG, I'd say Shaq is the best defender against Duncan you'll find in the NBA.


Can he stop Parker? No, but he could at least stay in front of him. Marion gave the Suns someone to put on Parker (allowing Nash to hide on Bowen), who could then switch to TD on the pick and roll.
What is it with this "switching"? I could "switch" from Parker to TD and watch him score at will, just like Marion could. Marion could not guard either one of those guys- he could do a half-assed job on Parker, and half-assed job on Duncan. That doesn't make him a defensive specialist against those two.
Boris Diaw is a lot more versatile on defense and is able to handle Parker AND Duncan better than Marion. Hill is also very good against Parker.
There is no need for Marion on this team- Hill and Diaw can cover Marion's position just fine.

Shaq has never, even in his prime, been a good pick and roll defender. Parker ate the Suns up this year even worse than in the past it seemed, and I think part of that was since Marion was missing.
Shaq is a horrible pick 'n roll defender. Coach should be able to adjust pnr defense to cover for that. 2 forwards should play a large part in that.
Parker destroyed the Suns because Hill went down and D'Antoni didn't figure out how to deal with Parker until it was too late. And let's not forget that Parker is an outstanding player who keeps getting better and better. Marion would have been irrelevant against the Spurs. Spurs didn't beat the Suns- Suns beat the Suns.

Furthermore, from an off the court perspective, the Shaq trade screwed the Suns from having any chance at being flexible.
Sure, to a degree. Keep in mind that Suns dumped Banks in that move as well, though.

If Marion hated Phoenix as much as everyone claimed, maybe he would've opted out at the end of this year and given the Suns some cap relief.
No way in hell. Nobody walks away from that kind of money. NOBODY.

As it is now, the Suns have to hope and pray that whomever they get at 15 can come in and be a contributor right away, which is not at all a sure thing.
Suns have to get a backup point guard. #15 is irrelevant.
Shaq trade doesn't change that. Substitute Shaq for Banks and Marion and you have the same situation.

Don't forget, Shaq will probably take off a huge number of games next year with phantom injuries, dog it all throughout the regular season, and say he'll turn it on when it matters. Say what you want about Marion, but he rarely missed games and always hustled (even though he did have off nights, like anyone)
We'll see what happens with Shaq. He's always been a slacker, so you're probably right. I am hoping that something might change now that he is 36 and has something to prove.

As far as Marion goes, he played hard, he was a good player to have on your team. However, Marion is irrelevant. Diaw, Hill, and to some degree Giricek can do anything that Marion could do. Nobody could do what Shaq does. Again, Marion is not even remotely relevant.


I believe it was self evident from last years series with the Spurs (which I still contend the Suns would've won sans suspensions) that the team with Amare-Marion-KT on the front line was the best lineup against the Spurs.
I'd argue that Diaw on 3, Stoudemire on 4, and Shaq on 5 is the best front line against the Spurs.

Look, all I am saying is that Shaq is NOT the problem. Not having a backup point guard IS a problem, and not using your players properly is a problem. Playing 7-8 guys only is a problem.
 

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Let's Rag on D'Antoni (and get it out of our system)
Hey George, Many of us had the guts to do it when things were 'sunshine and peaches' and were criticized for it.

You're a little late to the show.
 
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Irish

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Hey George, Many of us had the guts to do it when things were 'sunshine and peaches' and were criticized for it.

You're a little late to the show.

I have never changed my view of D'Antoni. He did some good stuff and stuff that didn't work. Initially the attacks on D'Antoni were based on how an up tempo team could never win at all int he playoffs or that relying on three pointers was a huge mistake. I can't count how many posts were made claimint he Suns should get Larry Brown until he went to NY.

It's really hard to find balance. Everybody is great or terrible. GM's are either geniuses or idiots. Focusing in on real problem areas gets lost by this all or nothing orientation.

In any case, the time for Mike to go had come. Kerr may not be a genius, but his efforts to get Mike to change apprear to have been on target. I like what I'm hearing from Porter in that he's not planning to get rid of the good stuff Mike was doing.
 

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[/quote]
It's closed.
joshstmarie:the guy didnt learn to call timeouts untill the last series of his career.

Thats hilarious and so true.
Irish: I don't buy the "window is closed" argument. It's not as wide open as I might like, but it is not closed.
It's closed. Look around the League and then look at our old,thin roster along with the cap room.
 
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Mainstreet

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Hey George, Many of us had the guts to do it when things were 'sunshine and peaches' and were criticized for it.

You're a little late to the show.

So the Suns are better off now? I rather enjoyed the 'sunshine and peaches' and two trips to the Western Conference Finals.

D'Antoni definitely had his own style of coaching like it or not. I just think D'Antoni never had a quality bench he could trust. Let me think, if the Suns had acquired Garnett or Gasol they might be on the verge of winning a Championship just like Boston or LA with those additions respectively. At least part of the pieces were there for the Suns to do this with KT and two first round picks. D'Antoni do not screw this up. The Suns FO did. Blame should be placed where it belongs.
 
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Covert Rain

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I appreciate the fact that Mike made this team relevant again. He turned things around and made us fun. However, I once heard one of my bosses say that every person no matter how good is eventually promoted to their highest level of incompetence.

D'Antoni IMO is not a Championship caliber coach. He never will be. He is the type of coach that can make a team play good fun basketball and get to the playoffs. That's great depending on where your franchise has been.

I do not agree that D'Antoni did all he could with the players that we had. If you put this team in the hands of Pop or Phil I bet this team would have won a title. I honestly believe that.

Professional sports is full of good coaches. There are very few great coaches. There is nothing wrong with recognizing D'Antoni as a good coach. However, sooner or later your franchise needs to move on if the goal is to win a title...no matter how good your current coach is.
 

Mainstreet

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D'Antoni IMO is not a Championship caliber coach. He never will be. He is the type of coach that can make a team play good fun basketball and get to the playoffs. That's great depending on where your franchise has been.

I do not agree that D'Antoni did all he could with the players that we had. If you put this team in the hands of Pop or Phil I bet this team would have won a title. I honestly believe that.

Just back away a little for perspective. D'Antoni only had four legitimate years with the Suns to win a Championship. He also took the Suns to the WCF's twice, once without Amare. If not for some events beyond his control (Raja injury/ Amare Diaw suspension) the Suns might have won a Championship already. I don't understand how you can conclude he cannot win a Championship based on these facts. What's common about those two WCF seasons is the Suns had a paper thin bench and I do not conclude the thin bench was D'Antoni's doing. Yes, D'Antoni missed Joe Johnson as well after he was not extended.
 
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Irish

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Many said Larry Brown couldn't win the championship until he did.

The Suns did not fire Mike, he left voluntarily. But there were some issues between D'Antoni and Kerr which may have made the situation here uncomfortable for him. So while I admire Mike and his ability to get the team to buy into his style, I find I agree with many of Kerr's criticisms:

Not enough emphasis on team defense
Not enough work to develop dept and too short a bench.
Too reliant on "small ball" even when it wasn't working
 

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I agree a lot with SteelDog's comment. I do appreciate Mike for everything he did here. Yes, he ran into some bad luck along the way with injury/suspensions in the playoffs that probably led to some unfair criticism, but he also had some major holes in his coaching philosophy that didn't help him out any.

His stubborness in not playing a bench (partly his fault as well seeing as how he pretty much put the last 2 teams together) cost the Suns late in the season. Some say maybe the huge workloads contributed to some of those failures or injurues. I'll let you make your own opinion there. And when someone went down, there was no one else to step in. The rotation just got shorter.

His inability to recognize that adjustments were needed in the playoffs until it was too late also hurt his team.

The well documented non emphasis on defense will always be what everyone talks about in terms of a negative to DA. If defense was that important to him, you'd think he would've eventually sacraficed some offense for defense after the coming up short every year. He solution to everything was that offense wasn't good enough....smaller and faster. Well, that's fine in the regular season, but in the playoffs it's harder to pull off and you'd better hope you can stops when you gameplanned for a possible 7 games series. This team never could, and it was apparent by all of their terrible defensive rotations that it was not practiced that much.
 

nashman

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"Don't know what you got, till its gone" I think is a phrase we may be using in the next few years. Mike while having flaws is still one of the best coaches in the NBA and players loved playing for him, some came here to play for him and his system. It has yet to be seen how FA's will be attracted to come play here now, it won't be money so what do we offer them now? I think people look at the flaws and focus on that instead of what he did, and to think Pop or Phil would have won championships with the same teams thats debatable if all the same injuries and bad luck happened to those guys. I think winning an NBA has much more to do with the players than the coach. We shall see now with a new coach and new system, I for one want to have a great team and am crossing my fingers but not counting on it at all.
 

cly2tw

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Will DA ever win a NBA title as coach? Not with his current style of short rotation and light practices. He might be the best coach to never win the title, but that's not what Suns want, hence the divorce.

It takes time to build reputation, but it takes NU time to ruin it.

And, when every year some serious injury happens to your core players come playoff times, it's no longer just bad luck. It's bad luck that's built in in your system!

BTW, will Rivers become the first black head coach to win a title? I believe Porter will be the next, and with the Suns. ;)
 

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Just back away a little for perspective. D'Antoni only had four legitimate years with the Suns to win a Championship. He also took the Suns to the WCF's twice, once without Amare. If not for some events beyond his control (Raja injury/ Amare Diaw suspension) the Suns might have won a Championship already. I don't understand how you can conclude he cannot win a Championship based on these facts. What's common about those two WCF seasons is the Suns had a paper thin bench and I do not conclude the thin bench was D'Antoni's doing. Yes, D'Antoni missed Joe Johnson as well after he was not extended.

Lets not over-gloss D'Antoni's accomplishments.

D'Antoni DID take the Suns to the WCF finals in 2006, but most of that was due to the bizzare seedings that the league has since corrected.

Lets not forget that the Suns were a Kobe Bryant jump shot away from being eliminated by a seventh seed in the first round that year. I think thats a better summarization of how good of a coach he actually was.

Both in 2005 and 2007, D'Antoni and the Suns were eliminated by a lower seed even though they had home court advantage.

In 2008, they were eliminated in five games by a team that had only one more regular seasons win than they did.

Bottom line: D'Antoni was unbelievably over-rated. His offensive style was too gimicky, he didn't have the respect of his players, he couldn't make in-game adjustments, he didn't stress enough about defense and he was a terrible motivator (how many times can you expect to say "LETS GO" before you realize it no longer has any effect).

Some things that I will NEVER forget:

Game 2 of the 2005 WCF: D'Antoni attempts to play Nash the entire game. Three minutes into the fourth quarter its completely obvious that Nash is SPENT (I was there).

Game 1 of the 2007 WCF: After the loss, D'Antoni and Nash question whether some players were ready to play this game (Marion). This was the pseudo NBA finals and everyone knew it, yet our players weren't ready to play like it. This 100% falls directly on the coach.

Game 4 of the 2008 Series against the Spurs: D'Antoni's answer to "Hack a Shaq" is to try and inbound the ball and quickly get a shot off while the Spurs foul Oneal in an effort to get an "And 1" opportunity. The Spurs saw this stupid plan coming a mile away.

Game 5 of the 2008 Series against the Spurs: Spurs were over the limit with around four minutes left in the first quarter. D'Antoni brings Shaq INTO the game! For some reason he thought the trade-off of the Spurs offense vs. Shaq shooting free throws would work to our favor.

The only possible way D'Antoni could win a championship is if he was in the right place at the right time. That is, if had the most talented team and every other championship-caliber team sustained some injury in the playoffs.
 
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Covert Rain

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Just back away a little for perspective. D'Antoni only had four legitimate years with the Suns to win a Championship. He also took the Suns to the WCF's twice, once without Amare. If not for some events beyond his control (Raja injury/ Amare Diaw suspension) the Suns might have won a Championship already. I don't understand how you can conclude he cannot win a Championship based on these facts. What's common about those two WCF seasons is the Suns had a paper thin bench and I do not conclude the thin bench was D'Antoni's doing. Yes, D'Antoni missed Joe Johnson as well after he was not extended.

No doubt D'Antoni has some things beyond his control. However, he did control defense scheme. He did control bench rotation. He did control development of his players. He did control playing "small ball/speedball" and playing guys like Amare out of position. He does control in game adjustments (which he struggled mightily with).

These things were huge contributing factors in our playoff performances. Let's also not forget that many of the moves the Suns made D'Antoni had a hand in. So this is why I don't think D'Antoni is a championship level coach. There are many examples of really good coaches who got their teams into the playoffs but were never able to get over the hump. They were good coaches. That's the category I put D'Antoni in.

At some point your franchise has to say "when". The ultimate goal is not to have a coach who wins 50+ games every year and gets you into the playoffs. All that means nothing if you don't win a ring. So, ultimately having a good coach is not good enough if you want that ring.

D'Antoni might change his ways. I hope he does. However, there was no indication that he was willing to change his ways with the Suns. That led to the divorce. The Suns did the only thing they could do. Ask the coach to change and if the coach says no....then move on. Even if Porter is a huge mistake....you can't win if you don't take chances.
 
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nowagimp

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And, when every year some serious injury happens to your core players come playoff times, it's no longer just bad luck. It's bad luck that's built in in your system!

BTW, will Rivers become the first black head coach to win a title? I believe Porter will be the next, and with the Suns. ;)

Well, 3 of rivers core players (plus one of his better bench swing guys) are injured now: Rondo, Pierce, Perkins(tony allen). I guess its a good thing that celtics GM ainge picked up PJ Brown and Cassel or their season would have went down in flames in the finals due to injuries. And its a good thing that KG didnt get suspended for his shoving of the ref, or they might be fishing now. It seems that Rivers played his starters too much as 3 of the 5 are injured. The celtics probably can win anyway, but IF the lakers do come back, your have your "sunsfan type" reason.

Oh yeah, and keep drinking that koolaid that porter will win a championship with this suns team. I hope you are right, but more likely you are "koolaid drunk".
 

cly2tw

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Well, 3 of rivers core players (plus one of his better bench swing guys) are injured now: Rondo, Pierce, Perkins(tony allen). I guess its a good thing that celtics GM ainge picked up PJ Brown and Cassel or their season would have went down in flames in the finals due to injuries. And its a good thing that KG didnt get suspended for his shoving of the ref, or they might be fishing now. It seems that Rivers played his starters too much as 3 of the 5 are injured. The celtics probably can win anyway, but IF the lakers do come back, your have your "sunsfan type" reason.

Oh yeah, and keep drinking that koolaid that porter will win a championship with this suns team. I hope you are right, but more likely you are "koolaid drunk".


Injuries happen. Celtics apparently are well prepared for this as evidenced in their finals performance. DA's Suns weren't. That's the system failure, my friend!

We have a core of Amare/Nash/Shaq that's a little below Pierce/KG/Allen but above Kobe/Gasol/Odom. Our secondaries of Hill/Diaw/Bell/LB/Giricek are IMO better than both of the finals teams. I believe with Rivers this team plus some adequate marginal FA moves and trades in the manner of the House and Posey ones of the Celtics, we could win. DA was right in one assertion: Our team were more talented than Spurs which eliminated us two years in a roll. All we need is the right coach and right small trades.
 

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