Let's talk about Andrew Thomas

[Solar7]

I don't see elite in this O-lineman class - but do think that Lamb and Jeudy have special talents that fit nicely in today's game, and KK's offence.

Also a spot where we differ - I don't think we'll ever see the traditional "elite" O-lineman coming out of college ever again, because of the way the game has changed at the college level. I would say that going forward, this is the best we're ever going to get at OT (on average, from a year-to-year basis) unless something dramatic happens in the game. I feel every OL will have warts, but some will still project to be elite.

As far as continuing the WR discussion, you know I feel it's a luxury, and I'll do my best to avoid that to try to keep the thread on topic.

 

[GuernseyCard]

A fully healthy 32, sure. Someone who has dealt with injuries his entire career has a pretty significant red flag at that age when you wonder how much he can come back.

I don't like Murray as a player, so it doesn't make me rest easy with the prospect of Gilbert missing time.

You and I don't see eye to eye on the OL, which is fine. I think it's bad. And not to put words in your mouth, I feel you think it's at least adequate.

Adequate +

DJ - Pugh - Cole - Sweezy - Gilbert

This was supposed to be our opening lineup last season.

 

[AZman5103]

I think Marcus Gilbert is purely a backup signing because he can't be counted on the be healthy. It really comes down to how much Kugler thinks of Murray. I don't think it's crazy to think he views him as a late bloomer type that can turn into a 5+ year starter later in his career and be an average to above average OT. Part of that is Kugler's coaching...but let's not forget that DJ Humphries has now been in the league 5 years...has never even been close to average in his NFL career, and we had people clamoring to sign him long term..and we gave him a lot of money.

Murray is not significantly worse than DJ Humphries.

Anyway, it would be nice to land Wills, because he is a day 1 starter. He is better than both Hump and Murray right now, and he should develop into a pro-bowler. I think an OT, I'm hoping Wills, will be choice #3 behind a stud defender and a WR. I just think that the Cards FO views our o-line as adequate, and able to get better under Kugler. They really like Gailliard. They really like Toth....later round guys that might actually turn into NFL players because they are being coached up. This is different than Russ Grim's "coaching up"...where he took crappy players and never got them to improve....I really think that the FO believes that they can take more raw prospects and coach them into starters over a couple of years.

My #1 O-Line want is a replacement for Shipley. An OC that can become a fixture here would do wonders for KM's development.

 

[Solar7]

Adequate +

DJ - Pugh - Cole - Sweezy - Gilbert

This was supposed to be our opening lineup last season.

Well, it was what was left from what some have called the worst team we've ever had. I feel that looks pretty patchwork.

 

[AZCrazy]

We can 'get by' with the O Line. No one at present is Pro Bowl caliber, let alone HOF caliber. It's the one area of the team that has always been neglected. Even efforts to improve it in the draft have routinely failed due to injury (Cooper), misuse (Davis), coaching (Brown), or general averageness (Humphries).

It ain't flashy. It's irritatingly unflashy. But it's what all the winning teams have - a dominant O Line.

 

[Solar7]

We can 'get by' with the O Line. No one at present is Pro Bowl caliber, let alone HOF caliber. It's the one area of the team that has always been neglected. Even efforts to improve it in the draft have routinely failed due to injury (Cooper), misuse (Davis), coaching (Brown), or general averageness (Humphries).

It ain't flashy. It's irritatingly unflashy. But it's what all the winning teams have - a dominant O Line.

Yeah man, I think we could really get something going if we were able to have a significantly strong OL out here. It'd be something none of us have ever seen if you were born after 1980, at least, haha.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Also a spot where we differ - I don't think we'll ever see the traditional "elite" O-lineman coming out of college ever again, because of the way the game has changed at the college level. I would say that going forward, this is the best we're ever going to get at OT (on average, from a year-to-year basis) unless something dramatic happens in the game. I feel every OL will have warts, but some will still project to be elite.

As far as continuing the WR discussion, you know I feel it's a luxury, and I'll do my best to avoid that to try to keep the thread on topic.

Traditional - non-traditional elite?

Sorry... that's bafflegab!

We don't need stars on the O-line - we need a unit of 5 who communicate effectively and do their jobs.

KC and SF had precisely one ALL-Pro (Schwartz) and he was the 2nd team RT.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yeah man, I think we could really get something going if we were able to have a significantly strong OL out here. It'd be something none of us have ever seen if you were born after 1980, at least, haha.

I think every single person on this board would love to have a great O-Line. I think some of us just aren't sold that this crop of guys is going to make a huge impact on getting us there.

Maybe we will simply have to be proven wrong with one of these guys being the pick. I will ultimately pull for whoever the pick is.

 

[AZman5103]

I would be 10000% more in favor of drafting an OT if the plan is to dump DJ after a year and move the new guy to LT.

Humphries is not good. He has never been good, and I'm very skeptical that he will ever be better than he was last year....which was not good, but at least healthy.

I am firmly in the camp that DJ will play about 60% of the games and at a bottom 10 OT level...just like he has before.

If you are going to spend the #8 pick on an OT, IMO he HAS to be able to play LT in the future. I go Wills, Thomas, Bechton, Wirfs if the plan is to move them to the left side.

 

[Finito]

I would be 10000% more in favor of drafting an OT if the plan is to dump DJ after a year and move the new guy to LT.

Humphries is not good. He has never been good, and I'm very skeptical that he will ever be better than he was last year....which was not good, but at least healthy.

I am firmly in the camp that DJ will play about 60% of the games and at a bottom 10 OT level...just like he has before.

If you are going to spend the #8 pick on an OT, IMO he HAS to be able to play LT in the future. I go Wills, Thomas, Bechton, Wirfs if the plan is to move them to the left side.

a LT that only gave up 2 sacks a year who’s 26 and you want more? Good luck

 

[Solar7]

Traditional - non-traditional elite?

Sorry... that's bafflegab!

We don't need stars on the O-line - we need a unit of 5 who communicate effectively and do their jobs.

KC and SF had precisely one ALL-Pro (Schwartz) and he was the 2nd team RT.

Just calling out that I have done my best to not call any of your thoughts "crazy," "dumb," or "stupid," since Harry's thread, and now I'm getting hit with "bafflegab" for daring to say I want an elite O-Lineman.

KC:
- Eric Fisher: 1 Pro Bowl
- Mitchell Schwartz: 1 first team All-Pro, 3x second team All-Pro

SF:
- Joe Staley: 6x Pro Bowl, 3x second team All-Pro
- Mike McGlinchey: 2018 PFWA All-Rookie Team

That's just the guys with individual accolades, and not looking at how they're graded or regarded in the NFL. These are offensive lines with significant stars, and quality across the line. None of ours have ever attended a Pro Bowl, nor do they have comparable accolades or regard. I know you don't count the Pro Bowl, but our guys just aren't on that level.

We could break down the entire playoffs, but I'm not willing to commit to it. They have above average offensive lines though.

 

[Harry]

I think Thomas is a victim of the old “familiarity breeds contempt.” Throughout the season his play had most evaluators ranking him first or second in the pool. He was very sound athletically at the Combine. I’ve seen this numerous times that many try to make separate from the herd by making a pick that stands out. These top OTs are all quite close. The best part is if you want an OT, Thomas could well be there after a trade back. He figures to be a starting tackle for years to come.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Short of injury?

Gilbert is a solid, experienced starter...

emphasis on EXPERIENCE!

Let's remember what happened to DJ and Massie in their trail by fire.

Very different situation.

Massie was a young vet; Gilbert is a corpse who has had significant injuries including all of last season.

Wills has extremely good technique for a 20 year old lineman.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Just calling out that I have done my best to not call any of your thoughts "crazy," "dumb," or "stupid," since Harry's thread, and now I'm getting hit with "bafflegab" for daring to say I want an elite O-Lineman.

KC:
- Eric Fisher: 1 Pro Bowl
- Mitchell Schwartz: 1 first team All-Pro, 3x second team All-Pro

SF:
- Joe Staley: 6x Pro Bowl, 3x second team All-Pro
- Mike McGlinchey: 2018 PFWA All-Rookie Team

That's just the guys with individual accolades, and not looking at how they're graded or regarded in the NFL. These are offensive lines with significant stars, and quality across the line. None of ours have ever attended a Pro Bowl, nor do they have comparable accolades or regard. I know you don't count the Pro Bowl, but our guys just aren't on that level.

We could break down the entire playoffs, but I'm not willing to commit to it. They have above average offensive lines though.

I'm with you.

Offensive line is not sexy, but you can get a really good blocker for at least the next five years. Get a guy who can actually make a Pro Bowl. Humphries could reach that level, but it would be smart to add another guy who is capable of being top ten at his position on the OL.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Very different situation.

Massie was a young vet; Gilbert is a corpse who has had significant injuries including all of last season.

Wills has extremely good technique for a 20 year old lineman.

I'll go with the "warm corpse" who's seen it all in year one over a snot nose 20-year old.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

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If you want a tackle, start with Jedrick Wills. The difference in their technique is mind blowing.

Wills is a much better OT from a technical perspective right now. Watch when Voch Lombardi gets to pass sets for Andrew Thomas and you see where a guy like Chandler Jones would probably get 3 sacks on him right now.

Wills looked good, Thomas looks bigger. The Lombardi dude said Wills isn't as good of a run blocker as he is a pass blocker. Opposite with Thomas. His one deficiency shown was the hands thing in pass protection, I'm sure that can be taught. He's a monster in run blocking. Although he gave up a little ground in pass protection, he never got beat. He gave up the sack in the first gap exchange but looked good on the 2nd one, blocked both guys. Thomas has been the #1 OT all along to me but can he play RT? He played RT his freshman yr at Georgia, switched to LT during his sophomore yr. Wills to the best of my knowledge has played RT the whole time at Alabama. Big decision if we go OT at #8 but overall I still like Thomas better.

 

[Solar7]

I'll go with the "warm corpse" who's seen it all in year one over a snot nose 20-year old.

Again, weren't you the one complaining about "adverbs and adjectives?"

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I think signing Gilbert was a smart move.

I don't like Murray at all, but now I can breathe easier if we take a defender that drops, because at least he's got some competition. I'm fine with him as a backup.

When Gilbert was healthy playing for the Steelers, he was easily a top 5-10 OT in the NFL, having said that, how much does he have left in the tank? I read an interview with him a few months back, he said his rehab is going as planned, said he loves it in Arizona & feels like he has a couple good yrs left in him. The coaches said during training camp last season he was the best OL'man they had, then he got hurt. I wanted him back. Our system (Kuglers) allowed Humphries to get over his past injury problems for whatever reason? Maybe it was just freak luck? Maybe it will do the same for Gilbert?

 

[GuernseyCard]

Just calling out that I have done my best to not call any of your thoughts "crazy," "dumb," or "stupid," since Harry's thread, and now I'm getting hit with "bafflegab" for daring to say I want an elite O-Lineman.

KC:
- Eric Fisher: 1 Pro Bowl
- Mitchell Schwartz: 1 first team All-Pro, 3x second team All-Pro

SF:
- Joe Staley: 6x Pro Bowl, 3x second team All-Pro
- Mike McGlinchey: 2018 PFWA All-Rookie Team

That's just the guys with individual accolades, and not looking at how they're graded or regarded in the NFL. These are offensive lines with significant stars, and quality across the line. None of ours have ever attended a Pro Bowl, nor do they have comparable accolades or regard. I know you don't count the Pro Bowl, but our guys just aren't on that level.

We could break down the entire playoffs, but I'm not willing to commit to it. They have above average offensive lines though.

#19:

What I want the most is an elite offensive lineman, something we haven't ever had in AZ.

#26

I don't think we'll ever see the traditional "elite" O-lineman coming out of college ever again.

That is bafflegab!

And, as said: precisely one Super Bowl offensive lineman, Mitchell Schwartz - made the Pro Bowl after last season.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Again, weren't you the one complaining about "adverbs and adjectives?"

Mr. passive-aggressive showing his true colours.

Mine are not directed at other posters.

 

[Solar7]

When Gilbert was healthy playing for the Steelers, he was easily a top 5-10 OT in the NFL, having said that, how much does he have left in the tank? I read an interview with him a few months back, he said his rehab is going as planned, said he loves it in Arizona & feels like he has a couple good yrs left in him. The coaches said during training camp last season he was the best OL'man they had, then he got hurt. I wanted him back. Our system (Kuglers) allowed Humphries to get over his past injury problems for whatever reason? Maybe it was just freak luck? Maybe it will do the same for Gilbert?

I have no problem with thinking Gilbert is decent-to-good. He's not a long term answer though.

 

[Solar7]

#19:

Where we probably differ is that I don't believe that a 3rd or 4th round o-lineman is going to have the chops to be a long-term star.

What I want the most is an elite offensive lineman, something we haven't ever had in AZ.

#26

Also a spot where we differ - I don't think we'll ever see the traditional "elite" O-lineman coming out of college ever again, because of the way the game has changed at the college level. I would say that going forward, this is the best we're ever going to get at OT (on average, from a year-to-year basis) unless something dramatic happens in the game. I feel every OL will have warts, but some will still project to be elite.

That is bafflegab!

And, as said: precisely one Super Bowl offensive lineman, Mitchell Schwartz - made the Pro Bowl after last season.

This post is confusing me. Are the bolded comments supposed be you calling them "bafflegab" again?

If so, what elite offensive lineman have we had in AZ, outside of maybe a one-off year for Lomas Brown or Mike Iupati?

As far as the traditional elite offensive lineman, most guys don't put their hands in the dirt in college anymore, so you're more likely to see players coming out who have barely played in the main NFL stance, and run traditional NFL schemes. At this point, we project, and the best offensive linemen go later in the top 10.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I have no problem with thinking Gilbert is decent-to-good. He's not a long term answer though.

No he's not, age & injury history are not on his side. I'm just trying to find the silver lining. Our OL would've been much better last season had he not gotten hurt? Him & Sweezy would've done fine on the right side. Here's for hoping Gilbert stays healthy & everything works out with the OL in 2020.

 

[SoonerLou]

I'd be very happy with him. I have to say this much, I defer to the expertise of others on which of the OTs is best. I can see an argument for any of them.

At the end of the day, I know some don't see value in drafting an RT as you're only "supposed" to invest this highly in an LT, but I think that's looking a bit too far down the road. We have DJ, and we have a tendency to bounce guys around to too many different positions instead of letting them hone their craft.

It's hard to dislike a guy who spent the whole year highly regarded, only to start slipping once people started to poke and prod him from a workout standpoint.

Wirfs I probably like the most - I'm fine with him testing out RT and OG, and if we feel he's really dominant at guard compared to tackle, we don't have to worry about replacing Sweezy.

Wills probably is the least exciting overall in terms of ability to move spots, or having elite-level traits, but he might have the most immediate impact.

I like the idea of giving Kugler Becton's overwhelming high ceiling and letting him coach him up.

This will be an interesting one to debate for a long time if we go OT at 8.

Ultimately we're relying on the expertise of Keim. So lets hope for the best

 

[Solar7]

Mr. passive-aggressive showing his true colours.

Mine are not directed at other posters.

I'm going to go back and look, but again, I don't think I've told a single poster they're dumb, stupid, or any other kind of pejorative. I apologized if I did in another thread, but I feel like it's been misinterpreted. I'm also happy to talk this out in a PM if it'd help. I've always respected and liked you, and nowhere in the past few days has that changed. Are you confusing me with someone else?