Levi Brown Not a Lock to Start

[Krangodnzr]

If I were Michael Bidwill, I wouldn't be interested in sinking some $15M in resources (Brown dead money + upfront obligations to Bushrod) for what would be, at best, a mild improvement in Jaron Bushrod.

I'm not a huge fan of Pro Football Focus, but some people are convinced by their data: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/17/snapshot-pbe-offensive-tackles/

If you look there, you'll find Bushrod in some pretty poor company.

And to contribute to what you are saying, but if Bushrod was really any good, wouldn't the Saints having cut someone like Will Smith instead of letting him walk?

I think you are right, Drew Brees makes him look better; 25 blown blocks, but only 3 sacks given up? Wouldn't that be at least partial evidence that Brees is good at pulling the trigger when a defender is in his face (which we already know is true)?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Levi Brown makes some forehead-slapping mistakes, but so does every offensive lineman in the NFL who isn't Jake Long or Joe Thomas. Levi is in the company of the middle 15-18 left tackles in the NFL. That's a valuable commodity.

Of course he was available and could have been had, but back then we were told we have an elite LT already on the roster and no cap space. Both of which turned out to be untrue

The OL would look alot better with Long, Cooper, Sendlein, Colledge, and Levi starting. Or even have Levi play RG with Massie at RT even though, unlike others, I am not all that convinced Levi would make a good OG.

 

[kerouac9]

Of course he was available and could have been had, but back then we were told we have an elite LT already on the roster and no cap space. Both of which turned out to be untrue

The OL would look alot better with Long, Cooper, Sendlein, Colledge, and Levi starting. Or even have Levi play RG with Massie at RT even though, unlike others, I am not all that convinced Levi would make a good OG.

Long is clearly a better player than Brown, even at the 80% or whatever he was playing at last year, but the situation was largely the same: Long got $8M in money in 2013 with $16M really guaranteed at a salary of $8M in 2014.

So you'd be looking at committing some $17M at one non-quarterback position. The upgrade from Brown to Long is probably big enough that you could justify that, though.

The bigger issue that I would have taking that to Michael Bidwill at the time is why are you committing an additional $10M on our cap to protect Drew Stanton? Long signed with St. Louis after a LONG flirtation and battery of medical tests on March 25. Carson Palmer wasn't traded to the Cards until April 2.

Now, I think that this is one of the drawbacks of the "big board" approach to free agency that Keim put together. Free Agency is a dynamic market. If you don't bother putting Jake Long onto your board, or evaluating him as an option, you don't get to the point where you're picking up the phone and calling him.

My feeling is that the front office probably decided that it wasn't worth the gamble for Long on a team that would likely win 6 games. With hindisight and Carson Palmer in your pocket, the argument is a little different.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Long is clearly a better player than Brown, even at the 80% or whatever he was playing at last year, but the situation was largely the same: Long got $8M in money in 2013 with $16M really guaranteed at a salary of $8M in 2014.

So you'd be looking at committing some $17M at one non-quarterback position. The upgrade from Brown to Long is probably big enough that you could justify that, though.

The bigger issue that I would have taking that to Michael Bidwill at the time is why are you committing an additional $10M on our cap to protect Drew Stanton? Long signed with St. Louis after a LONG flirtation and battery of medical tests on March 25. Carson Palmer wasn't traded to the Cards until April 2.

Now, I think that this is one of the drawbacks of the "big board" approach to free agency that Keim put together. Free Agency is a dynamic market. If you don't bother putting Jake Long onto your board, or evaluating him as an option, you don't get to the point where you're picking up the phone and calling him.

My feeling is that the front office probably decided that it wasn't worth the gamble for Long on a team that would likely win 6 games. With hindisight and Carson Palmer in your pocket, the argument is a little different.

And by making a play for Long(assuming they could have signed him), moving forward, you're not locking yourself into taking a LT in round 1 next year when there is a bevy of good pass rushers/QB's available. The Cards may still opt for a QB but I don't see how they pass on a LT for a pass rusher unless Levi all of a sudden starts playing at a level he hasn't played at his entire career.

 

[PDXChris]

And by making a play for Long(assuming they could have signed him), moving forward, you're not locking yourself into taking a LT in round 1 next year when there is a bevy of good pass rushers/QB's available. The Cards may still opt for a QB but I don't see how they pass on a LT for a pass rusher unless Levi all of a sudden starts playing at a level he hasn't played at his entire career.

You can't say that since Long cannot be counted on to play an entire season and as he gets older, he will be more prone to injury. He is a high risk/high reward player and with as many needs as had and had we cannot take that gamble. For all we know, he could play 6 games next year and 5 the following and then be drafting one anyway in two years.

 

[Buckybird]

And to contribute to what you are saying, but if Bushrod was really any good, wouldn't the Saints having cut someone like Will Smith instead of letting him walk?

I think you are right, Drew Brees makes him look better; 25 blown blocks, but only 3 sacks given up? Wouldn't that be at least partial evidence that Brees is good at pulling the trigger when a defender is in his face (which we already know is true)?

I think a big reason the Saints had to let him walk is because of the $$$ Bree's is making, just like letting one of the best OGs in the game (Nicks) walk the year before.

IMO, Bushrod isn't great but he's a clear upgrade over Levi! I wish someone could come up with the stats & grades on Levi's below average career, year by year then maybe everyone would quit thinking he's gonna turn around his so so at best career all of a sudden. Anyone? I keep hearing stats...produce some on this clown...please! I know what I've seen on a yearly basis watching games & what people bitch about each year while in game chat.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I think a big reason the Saints had to let him walk is because of the $$$ Bree's is making, just like letting one of the best OGs in the game (Nicks) walk the year before.

IMO, Bushrod isn't great but he's a clear upgrade over Levi! I wish someone could come up with the stats & grades on Levi's below average career, year by year then maybe everyone would quit thinking he's gonna turn around his so so at best career all of a sudden. Anyone? I keep hearing stats...produce some on this clown...please! I know what I've seen on a yearly basis watching games & what people bitch about each year while in game chat.

It's your point, your argument... so produce the stats.

 

[PDXChris]

Once the season starts, I don't really care so much about out-performing expectations based on draft status (remember that in the pre-draft process Potter was considered as high as a second-round pick) as much as I do about on-field results.

Didn't Levi Brown also have Russ Grimm as a head coach? Also, wasn't Brown on a training bike for most of OTAs as he recovered from his injury?

I'd like a link substantiating the assertion that Potter gained bulk this offseason.

In case you did not see the other one posted, here is one from right now.

Mike Jurecki ‏@mikejurecki 13m
Yes, 10-12 lbs, needed an anchor. RT @PriscoCBS: Has he gained weight?

Mike Jurecki ‏@mikejurecki 15m
Nate Potter will be in the mix @PriscoCBS Massie was good the 2nd half of the season. He can be a beast. Wonder if he goes to the left side?

 

[Buckybird]

And by making a play for Long(assuming they could have signed him), moving forward, you're not locking yourself into taking a LT in round 1 next year when there is a bevy of good pass rushers/QB's available. The Cards may still opt for a QB but I don't see how they pass on a LT for a pass rusher unless Levi all of a sudden starts playing at a level he hasn't played at his entire career.

Omg I would give anything if the Cards would try very hard to trade up (if they don't suck enough ) and draft DE/OLB Clowney next year! Wow is he going to be special, maybe even the #1 pick.

 

[Buckybird]

It's your point, your argument... so produce the stats.

All I know is Levi is generally in the bottom of sacks allowed each year. Why can't you or anyone defend him? All k9 has done is produced is 1 year, which shows Bushrod being mediocre when Levi was hurt & had none.

All I've read in another site is that Bushrod has allowed 8 sacks the last 3 years total...that's pretty darn good IMO. That's 1 year in probably every one of #75s I'd bet.

Produce some stats that's say Levi's isn't worse? If I knew where to look I would've already! Come on back up your opinion.

 

[GuernseyCard]

All I know is Levi is generally in the bottom of sacks allowed each year. Why can't you or anyone defend him? All k9 has done is produced is 1 year, which shows Bushrod being mediocre when Levi was hurt & had none.

All I've read in another site is that Bushrod has allowed 8 sacks the last 3 years total...that's pretty darn good IMO. That's 1 year in probably every one of #75s I'd bet.

Produce some stats that's say Levi's isn't worse? If I knew where to look I would've already! Come on back up your opinion.

I'm agnostic on the issue.

You're the one banging on and on and it's a little much that you'd ask others to make your case as you asked earlier.

The most recent evidence was positive, so we will see.

 

[machgman]

Levi Brown is NOT and elite tackle. Never has been and never will be because of his slow feet and overall lack of quickness, not to mention his lack of nastiness in knocking any defensive rushers down. Instead, the power rushers always knock him down a few times each quarter and the speed rushers leave him being very friendly as he waves bye to them as they motor bye-bye. A slow moving offensive tackle signed to a large contract is awful just as a slow moving offensive tackle signed to a small contract is also awful.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Omg I would give anything if the Cards would try very hard to trade up (if they don't suck enough ) and draft DE/OLB Clowney next year! Wow is he going to be special, maybe even the #1 pick.

He's the best college passrusher I've ever seen by a wide margin.

He arrived at South Carolina a gangly 6'6, 240 lbs with a 4.6 40.

He's now around 270-275 and reportedly runs around a 4.5. The scary thing is he's really just scratching the surface; he's not even close to what his talent and physical skills will allow. Dare I say he's in the Lebron James stratosphere in talent?

But I don't think he's a 3-4 backer at all. He could play it, but he would help a team a lot more playing right end. And he's the type of player that you change your defense for.

He should be the #1 overall, no question. Best defensive player in at least a decade.

 

[cardncubfan]

K9's opinion is supported by facts and yours through the abuse of smilies.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Omg I would give anything if the Cards would try very hard to trade up (if they don't suck enough ) and draft DE/OLB Clowney next year! Wow is he going to be special, maybe even the #1 pick.

If he stays healthy, it will be a major upset if he's not the #1 pick next year.

 

[TJ]

It's your point, your argument... so produce the stats.

It's more than just stats. It's also about knowing what you're watching when the game comes on the TV. Bucky knows what he's watching. He doesn't need to spend countless hours researching stats. He's way too old for that.

Simply put, Levi does not pass the eyeball test. In pass pro, he gets parallel to the sideline far too often, and is usually chasing his assignment to the QB. He's always struggled blocking on an island. Granted he is a rood run blocking LT, we can ill afford to have a LT who's allowing 10 +/- sacks/season w/ countless pressures.

All of this while Levi is the 10th highest paid tackle in the NFL http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/tackle/

With bonuses, he'll make $6.4 mil this season and $7.7 mil in 2014. Is it prudent to pay an underachieving LT like he's a pro bowl candidate?

From my perspective, he is in a do-or-die year. If he's anything short of being a solid blindside blocker this season (if he wins back the job), he'll be gone next season.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

It's more than just stats. It's also about knowing what you're watching when the game comes on the TV. Bucky knows what he's watching. He doesn't need to spend countless hours researching stats. He's way too old for that.

Simply put, Levi does not pass the eyeball test. In pass pro, he gets parallel to the sideline far too often, and is usually chasing his assignment to the QB. He's always struggled blocking on an island. Granted he is a rood run blocking LT, we can ill afford to have a LT who's allowing 10 +/- sacks/game w/ countless pressures.

All of this while Levi is the 10th highest paid tackle in the NFL http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/tackle/

With bonuses, he'll make $6.4 mil this season and $7.7 mil in 2014. Is it prudent to pay an underachieving LT like he's a pro bowl candidate?

From my perspective, he is in a do-or-die year. If he's anything short of being a solid blindside blocker this season (if he wins back the job), he'll be gone next season.

. Yep he do or Palmer dies.

 

[SECTION 11]

we can ill afford to have a LT who's allowing 10 +/- sacks/game w/ countless pressures.

He's not Walter Jones, but he sure as hell isn't giving up 10 sack a game. Unless of course the definition of sack has changed dramatically in the last couple of hours or so.

 

[TJ]

He's not Walter Jones, but he sure as hell isn't giving up 10 sack a game. Unless of course the definition of sack has changed dramatically in the last couple of hours or so.

Oops...meant "season"

 

[Chopper0080]

If he stays healthy, it will be a major upset if he's not the #1 pick next year.

It would be tough for a team to pass on the top QB in any draft class if the QB was a top 5 guy.

I agree, I think Clowney is a special player, but defensive linemen can have a tough transition. That being coupled with the fact that he isn't a QB, makes it not quite a shock.

 

[kerouac9]

And by making a play for Long(assuming they could have signed him), moving forward, you're not locking yourself into taking a LT in round 1 next year when there is a bevy of good pass rushers/QB's available. The Cards may still opt for a QB but I don't see how they pass on a LT for a pass rusher unless Levi all of a sudden starts playing at a level he hasn't played at his entire career.

I agree with all this, but this year isn't next year, and there's no point in shelling out $10M on the possibility that Jake Long is still great in order to block for Drew Stanton leading the Cards to a 4-12 record.

Above-average LTs hit the free agent market nearly every single year. This is not the same as a 12+ sack per year rusher or a top shelf quarterback.

As I said, Branden Albert, Michael Oher, and Jordan Gross are all scheduled for 2014 free agency.

 

[kerouac9]

It's more than just stats. It's also about knowing what you're watching when the game comes on the TV. Bucky knows what he's watching. He doesn't need to spend countless hours researching stats. He's way too old for that.

Simply put, Levi does not pass the eyeball test. In pass pro, he gets parallel to the sideline far too often, and is usually chasing his assignment to the QB. He's always struggled blocking on an island. Granted he is a rood run blocking LT, we can ill afford to have a LT who's allowing 10 +/- sacks/season w/ countless pressures.

All of this while Levi is the 10th highest paid tackle in the NFL http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/tackle/

With bonuses, he'll make $6.4 mil this season and $7.7 mil in 2014. Is it prudent to pay an underachieving LT like he's a pro bowl candidate?

From my perspective, he is in a do-or-die year. If he's anything short of being a solid blindside blocker this season (if he wins back the job), he'll be gone next season.

I don't know if you're mis-reading sportrac or being intentionally dishonest, but this is plain untrue. That may be true of Levi's CAP HOLD, but his compensation in 2013 is $5M and $6.25M in 2014.

Some more clear dishonesty is only using the "base salary" metric for Levi's top 10 status instead of the cap hold number you cite. Levi has the 12th-highest cap hold among tackles, and that cap hold is half of the top guys like Ryan Clady, Branden Albert, and Joe Thomas.

 

[THESMEL]

really

You've ignored my stats on Levi for years- We were last in rushing attempts , yards- while passing more than any other franchise over Levi's career- We had 26 sacks per year in 08 and 09. If you break it down play by play- We had streaks of exclusively passing almost every down!

Damn it why can't you see that no other LT is asked to do that? EVER-The Saints had more rushes than passes their SB year- spread among many backs!

How about our 1st SB appearance as a freaking stat that supports Levi-
We triple dare you to attack Levi Brown every down with everything you got stupid defense-
We have no intentions of establishing the running game-
we will pass like our hair is on fire until you submit- stupid NFL defenses anywho-
think they can beat out the Smushdown Levi Brown enough downs to win-
We had no respect for any NFL defense.

The 3000+ pass plays defended in 5 years is a pretty cool stat. along with our only success since 1947! He's a treasure to be cherished not trash to toss awy.

All I know is Levi is generally in the bottom of sacks allowed each year. Why can't you or anyone defend him? All k9 has done is produced is 1 year, which shows Bushrod being mediocre when Levi was hurt & had none.

All I've read in another site is that Bushrod has allowed 8 sacks the last 3 years total...that's pretty darn good IMO. That's 1 year in probably every one of #75s I'd bet.

Produce some stats that's say Levi's isn't worse? If I knew where to look I would've already! Come on back up your opinion.

 

[Buckybird]

You've ignored my stats on Levi for years- We were last in rushing attempts , yards- while passing more than any other franchise over Levi's career- We had 26 sacks per year in 08 and 09. If you break it down play by play- We had streaks of exclusively passing almost every down!

Damn it why can't you see that no other LT is asked to do that? EVER-The Saints had more rushes than passes their SB year- spread among many backs!

How about our 1st SB appearance as a freaking stat that supports Levi-
We triple dare you to attack Levi Brown every down with everything you got stupid defense-
We have no intentions of establishing the running game-
we will pass like our hair is on fire until you submit- stupid NFL defenses anywho-
think they can beat out the Smushdown Levi Brown enough downs to win-
We had no respect for any NFL defense.

The 3000+ pass plays defended in 5 years is a pretty cool stat. along with our only success since 1947! He's a treasure to be cherished not trash to toss awy.

You've been ignoring the point that during that successful era, Levi was NOT the starting LT for the Cards! I could handle the guy at RT, but not at the most critical position on the Oline. Brown has been more part of the problem than part of the solution to winning IMO.

It's ok though, cause by week 3 everyone will be bitching at him again on this board (just like every year) because of his lackluster play, except for you. I still say he will be wearing another uni in 2014.

 

[Mulli]

Even though Winston is a RT, I am thinking this signing is bad for Levi Brown. My opinion.