Lienart the reason

[D-Dogg]

I, Mulli, from now until the end of the year, will no longer say anything negative about that Cardinals.

I had to do this last year, and it is time to do it again this year. It is just to painful to be objective. I will now go totally koolaider.

I'm close to not visiting this section of the forum, myself.

 

[D-Dogg]

Show me one sentence where I ever put him at the same talent level?

Everytime you think that the game would be no different because "rattay was victimized by drops" or "ran the offense he was running well" and that Matt would have done no better, you are by default putting them at the same talent level. You'd start rattay over Matt. I have no doubts.

 

[Mulli]

I'm close to not visiting this section of the forum, myself.

Take the koolaid pledge.

 

[D-Dogg]

You saying that those drops happened because they opened up the playbook for Rattay is laughable. The Playbook doesnt make a WR drop a ball Donald.

I didn't say that, Shane. I said that he played vanilla offense in the first half (which matt wouldn't have done) and that they only opened it up for him a bit late in the second. Unfortunately, when they did, drops happened. Not his fault, but with Matt it wouldn't have been vanilla from the opening gun.

 

[D-Dogg]

Take the koolaid pledge.

Too late, I poked shane with a stick with that second to last post.

 

[Shane]

Everytime you think that the game would be no different because "rattay was victimized by drops" or "ran the offense he was running well" and that Matt would have done no better, you are by default putting them at the same talent level. You'd start rattay over Matt. I have no doubts.

Nope. Im just telling you what the eyes saw as compared to the way Matt was playing this year which was TERRIBLE. You just can't seem to admit that.

Heck I would start a whole plethura of QB's over Matt the way he was playing. Doesnt mean that they have more talent or upside. Just means that at that point in time he is playing like crap and needs to get his azz in gear. You can only use the overcoached excuse so much donald. Guy has all the talent in the world. But Talent only gets you so far. The guy is loads more talented than Jeff Garcia. However who do you think I would rather have starting for my team right now? Get the point?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Show me one sentence where I ever put him at the same talent level? Please look that up and find it and I will pay you 20.00 cash this weekend at the game.

I say what is a fact. He managed that Carolina game with the gameplan he was given no worse then the game management Leinart had done to date for the season. He was victimized by bad drops and tipped balls. You saying that those drops happened because they opened up the playbook for Rattay is laughable. The Playbook doesnt make a WR drop a ball Donald.

Would Leinart have had a bigger playbook? Of course. Does that guarantee more success? NO! Especially considering that we have been outright told that the playbook has been limited all year for Matt as well because he can't even grasp the whole damn thing. The guy struggled mightily all 5 games he played in and likely would have struggled just as badly against Carolina. He showed nothing all year to believe otherwise.

Doesnt mean I like Rattay more or think he has more talent. Never said that and never would. Leinart is the future. How much of a future that is remains to be seen. Especially if he cant stay healthy.

Shane, you live in Vegas. How can you be so cranky

 

[D-Dogg]

Nope. Im just telling you what the eyes saw as compared to the way Matt was playing this year which was TERRIBLE. You just can't seem to admit that.

Heck I would start a whole plethura of QB's over Matt the way he was playing. Doesnt mean that they have more talent or upside. Just means that at that point in time he is playing like crap and needs to get his azz in gear. You can only use the overcoached excuse so much donald. Guy has all the talent in the world. But Talent only gets you so far. The guy is loads more talented than Jeff Garcia. However who do you think I would rather have starting for my team right now? Get the point?

You'd start Rattay over Leinart. I get it. I think you're crazy, but I get it.

 

[Shane]

I didn't say that, Shane. I said that he played vanilla offense in the first half (which matt wouldn't have done) and that they only opened it up for him a bit late in the second. Unfortunately, when they did, drops happened. Not his fault, but with Matt it wouldn't have been vanilla from the opening gun.

Which means the WR's wouldnt have dropped the balls IYO?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Nope. Im just telling you what the eyes saw as compared to the way Matt was playing this year which was TERRIBLE. You just can't seem to admit that.

Heck I would start a whole plethura of QB's over Matt the way he was playing. Doesnt mean that they have more talent or upside. Just means that at that point in time he is playing like crap and needs to get his azz in gear. You can only use the overcoached excuse so much donald. Guy has all the talent in the world. But Talent only gets you so far. The guy is loads more talented than Jeff Garcia. However who do you think I would rather have starting for my team right now? Get the point?

And heres the point we are making Shane - you just compared matt to a 15 year vet. At similar points in their careers was Garcia even playing on this continent?

Give it time. And like I keep saying at least when he was playing this year we were WINNING half of our games. And you know what Herm Edwards says........

 

[D-Dogg]

Which means the WR's wouldnt have dropped the balls IYO?

Oh good lord man. Not playing vanilla in the first half due to the QB knowing maybe 5 total plays, two of them run right and run left, would mean more scoring opps in the first half. And a bigger lead late, so instead of throwing downfield to try and make something happen, we were running ball control with a larger lead. One that allowed for the inevitable Steve Smith TD we all knew was coming at some point.

This is pop-up book level understanding of the NFL, just a reading level up from "if the guy catches the ball in the endzone it's a touchdown." Stay with me here...dude!

 

[Shane]

Oh good lord man. Not playing vanilla in the first half due to the QB knowing maybe 5 total plays, two of them run right and run left, would mean more scoring opps in the first half. And a bigger lead late, so instead of throwing downfield to try and make something happen, we were running ball control with a larger lead. One that allowed for the inevitable Steve Smith TD we all knew was coming at some point.

This is pop-up book level understanding of the NFL, just a reading level up from "if the guy catches the ball in the endzone it's a touchdown." Stay with me here...dude!

Because we were so good at building leads with a QB that supposedly had a larger grasp of this playbook and put us in a better psotion in the 2nd half of games?

FYI: we are the ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL without a 1st Qtr. TD this year. So that knowing the playbook has helped a lot in that regard.

 

[Pariah]

FYI: we are the ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL without a 1st Qtr. TD this year. So that knowing the playbook has helped a lot in that regard.

We're also the only team that's 100% in the red zone and lead the TD category in that part of the field.

 

[AZCB34]

Leinart going down had little to do with the downward spiral this season appears to be taking. I think there is alot of other stuff under the surface that is dooming yet another Cards season...and maybe a few things right on the surface as well.

Losing Leinart, IMO, meant very little to the overall path this season is taking.

 

[D-Dogg]

Because we were so good at building leads with a QB that supposedly had a larger grasp of this playbook and put us in a better psotion in the 2nd half of games?

FYI: we are the ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL without a 1st Qtr. TD this year. So that knowing the playbook has helped a lot in that regard.

A far sight better than with Rattay leading the charge and still managing to get a 1 point lead late. If you don't think Leinart is good for 7-10 more points than 2nd Day Rattay...I just don't know man.

 

[slanidrac16]

I don't know if we would have won any more games with Leinart....but it wouldn't have been any worse.

The worse thing about Leinart going down in game 5 was the fact that he lost the opportunity to learn and progress over the rest of the season.

For those who don't want to see the shortcomings of Warner and to say he is not the problem I offer this.

What is an experienced qb supposed to bring to his team. At the very least is a steady performance, an ability to avoid turnovers , and give what the defense gives him.
I have no problem when a qb throws 3 int's because we are 3 td's down with 10 minutes to go. Warner turns the ball over at an alarmng rate and yesterday failed to check down to at any time , especially when the offense needed some positive yards. Instead he insisted on forcing the ball into double and triple coverage when a simple dump pass would have given us 7 or 8 yards and put us in a managable down and distance.

If he can't at least do those things , then we should save the 4m a year and play somebody else.

For the record, I was a staunch Warner supporter. I thought the money spent on him was well worth it.
I was wrong.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

You are out and out wrong. If you ONLY read box scores then I can see why you think what you think.

But the team playing better as a whole, recievers catching balls, the line run blocking, and most importantly NO killer turnovers were all things that happened with Matt at the helm.

So either the entire team magically regressed after the kid went down or there is something else at work here. Meaning that EVERY facet of a successful offense is predicated on every little thing the guy under center does. And for all the killing you have done about Matt at least his record as a starter is a hell of lot a closer to .500 (and being a first year starter on THIS team - that is no small feat) than Warner. That's not a coincidence.

open you eyes.

Huh? I cant buy this for a moment. I agree Warner isnt the answer. He is a TO machine, cant stay healthy etc. But to say once Leinert went down all of a sudden the Cards couldnt block anymore, run the ball, catch passes, committed too many penalties (all things most of us agree is killing this team)
is really a stretch...No I mean, really a stretch. You do remember his play dont you? He was dreadful!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Huh? I cant buy this for a moment. I agree Warner isnt the answer. He is a TO machine, cant stay healthy etc. But to say once Leinert went down all of a sudden the Cards couldnt block anymore, run the ball, catch passes, committed too many penalties (all things most of us agree is killing this team)
is really a stretch...No I mean, really a stretch. You do remember his play dont you? He was dreadful!

There is just no way to quantify the play of the QB has on every aspect of a game. Every nuance, every play called, every step taken by a QB impacts everything else that goes on in that offense.

Theres a reason that when the Pats pull Brady and put in Cassel with the same players, same scheme, and same circumstances that he throws an INT in the first couple plays and the offense looks NOTHING like it did prior.

Thats an extreme example but my point remains. A QB in football is like a starting pitcher. If your pitcher doesn't have the goods then it doesn't matter what else is behind him.

Warner for whatever reason just can't run the offense. I would like to see what the rushing numbers and especially the pass protections (not just sacks but hurries and deflections) are from Warner to Leinart.

Think about it. If it just came to flinging the ball around the yard why wouldn't wiz have gone exclusively to Warner? He was smart enough to realize that while Warner can be effective as a change of pace - Matt playing the majority of the snaps was the best chance to win.

This is a dead end argument. My main point isn't how great Leinart is but just how much better the offense runs as a whole when he was under center. He managed the game and while Warner will make throws that dazzle you, he will also leave you at the altar.

At least at this point in his career Matt is the reliable girl you know you can count on.

What the hell am I talking about? I'mnot sure. All I know is that we ain't winning squat with Warner and I felt ALOT better with Matt under center.

 

[cardsfanmd]

All of you who think Rattay could be just as effective as Leinart please let me know.

 

[slanidrac16]

All of you who think Rattay could be just as effective as Leinart please let me know.

I don't know. I do know he would be no worse than Warner.

 

[Duckjake]

Shane, you live in Vegas. How can you be so cranky

Cubs & Cardinals. Being fans of those two teams would make Santa Claus cranky.

100 years and 60 years respectively between Championships. Wow.

Shane, I hope you have a favorite basketball or college football or rugby team or something other than those two.