looking back at the losses

[Griffin]

People are quick to point out that our wins haven't come against top tier teams, and that our opponents are often missing key players, and that we are winless against the Western elites. All very valid points. On the other hand, how many teams can claim that they were in position to win every single game and that their biggest deficit 32 games into the season is an 8-point road loss in their season opener? The Suns have won 75% of their games thus far because every night they put themselves in a position to win.

10/31 @ Lakers: lose by 8 (19-point lead blown)
11/03 Jazz: lose by 4 (15-point lead blown)
11/04 @ Clippers: lose by 6 (9-point lead blown, leading into 4Q)
11/08 @ Spurs: lose by 5 OT (lose in OT, 9 point lead blown with under 6 min to go in reg)
11/09 Mavs: lose by 7 (early 9-point lead blown, game tied with under 2 min)
11/18 @ Jazz: lose by 3 OT (lose in OT, 16-point 4Q lead blown)
12/22 Wizards: lose by 5 OT (4 point lead with under 2 min in reg)
12/28 @ Mavs: lose by 2 (8 point 4Q lead blown, lose on game-wining shot)

Average margin of defeat: 5 points

And that's completely disregarding the fact that early in the season we had about zero team chemistry and did not play the way we are playing now.

 

[basketballfan]

People are quick to point out that our wins haven't come against top tier teams, and that our opponents are often missing key players, and that we are winless against the Western elites. All very valid points. On the other hand, how many teams can claim that they were in position to win every single game and that their biggest deficit 32 games into the season is an 8-point road loss in their season opener? The Suns have won 75% of their games thus far because every night they put themselves in a position to win.

10/31 @ Lakers: lose by 8 (19-point lead blown)
11/03 Jazz: lose by 4 (15-point lead blown)
11/04 @ Clippers: lose by 6 (9-point lead blown, leading into 4Q)
11/08 @ Spurs: lose by 5 OT (lose in OT, 9 point lead blown with under 6 min to go in reg)
11/09 Mavs: lose by 7 (early 9-point lead blown, game tied with under 2 min)
11/18 @ Jazz: lose by 3 OT (lose in OT, 16-point 4Q lead blown)
12/22 Wizards: lose by 5 OT (4 point lead with under 2 min in reg)
12/28 @ Mavs: lose by 2 (8 point 4Q lead blown, lose on game-wining shot)

Average margin of defeat: 5 points

And that's completely disregarding the fact that early in the season we had about zero team chemistry and did not play the way we are playing now.

You make an excellent point. To look farther into it, we beat Utah both times if it wasn't for missed lay ups at the end, and we had a chance to beat San Antonio if we make a free throw with no time remaining. I also think we beat the Wizards if we don't fly into Phoenix the night of the game. So basically, we have a very good team that's just getting better everyday.

 

[greensborohill]

This goes back to what I said a while back (totally analytical but yet I got bashed as being a troll). The Suns look REALLY good versus slightly above average to poor teams b/c those teams have no clue how to D up the Suns. But the better teams don't get suckered into playing the Suns pace and taking the jump shots that the Suns want to give you. I think it's really hard to beat the Suns by blowing them out. You just keep it a game and execute at the end b/c the Suns usually can't get the stops at the end.

 

[mribnik]

This goes back to what I said a while back (totally analytical but yet I got bashed as being a troll). The Suns look REALLY good versus slightly above average to poor teams b/c those teams have no clue how to D up the Suns. But the better teams don't get suckered into playing the Suns pace and taking the jump shots that the Suns want to give you. I think it's really hard to beat the Suns by blowing them out. You just keep it a game and execute at the end b/c the Suns usually can't get the stops at the end.

No offense, but you must not have seen the games. We lost the last game against the Mavs due to turnovers, not because of defense. We lost a close game to SA because Raja missed a free throw at the end. We lost two close games to Utah because of easy missed shots at the end. The Suns were also a team trying to find itself early on in the season. We lost many of these games because we couldn't score in the clutch, not because we couldn't stop other teams. The whole point of this post was that the Suns put themselves in positions to win, but we haven't been able to finish some teams off.

 

[Griffin]

the Suns usually can't get the stops at the end.

How do you figure? Would you be saying that if Dirk did not hit that game winner? Since our 3-6 start where indeed we could not get those stops (or hit a clutch shot), we have only lost 2 games, both of them close, while we have won many close games in that span. The word "usually" implies a pattern and I really don't see one here, other than one game.

Now Dallas, who have lost one fewer games than us thus far, have lost 4 of their 7 games by double-digits, including an 18-, 22-, and a 31-point defeat.

 

[az1965]

We also had the toughest schedule with 3 back to back all against top teams to kickoff the season. Not a good thing when we were trying to work Amare into the rotation coming off the bench who struggled early on.

 

[HooverDam]

This goes back to what I said a while back (totally analytical but yet I got bashed as being a troll). The Suns look REALLY good versus slightly above average to poor teams b/c those teams have no clue how to D up the Suns. But the better teams don't get suckered into playing the Suns pace and taking the jump shots that the Suns want to give you. I think it's really hard to beat the Suns by blowing them out. You just keep it a game and execute at the end b/c the Suns usually can't get the stops at the end.

Blarg, this is the king of Greg Anthony, non thinking, repeat what everyone else is saying crap that I hate.

 

[msdundee]

Blarg, this is the king of Greg Anthony, non thinking, repeat what everyone else is saying crap that I hate.

Love those 'totally analytical' reverberating echoes, don't we?

This is an excerpt from a post on one of the LA boards, written by a longtime poster -- a dedicated Laker fan who is very analytical, very knowledgeable, and also very highly respected on that board:

"Phoenix, on the other hand, has fewer weaknesses. They are amazing. D'Antoni's system contradicts many of the prevalent false notions about success in basketball."

Since I've always respected his opinions because they are honest and he's usually proven right, this was good to read.

(I should add this comment was posted this morning).

 

[JCSunsfan]

No offense, but you must not have seen the games. We lost the last game against the Mavs due to turnovers, not because of defense. We lost a close game to SA because Raja missed a free throw at the end. We lost two close games to Utah because of easy missed shots at the end. The Suns were also a team trying to find itself early on in the season. We lost many of these games because we couldn't score in the clutch, not because we couldn't stop other teams. The whole point of this post was that the Suns put themselves in positions to win, but we haven't been able to finish some teams off.

The only teams we haven't been able to finish off since November have been

The Wizard after a full day of exhausting travel
Dallas on a buzzer beater by Dirk, on the road

Most teams have off-nights in the regular season. We've had them too. To be frank, we've played some pretty crappy games by Suns standards, in that time-frame, and we have still won.

In most of our wins lately, we've even coasted, looking lethargic and disinterested.

Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, etc haven't "figured us out."

Your Dallas team is playing very well, but for you to think the Mavs (or any other team) some how has us figured out is just idio. . .er. . .silly.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only teams we haven't been able to finish off since November have been

The Wizard after a full day of exhausting travel
Dallas on a buzzer beater by Dirk, on the road

Most teams have off-nights in the regular season. We've had them too. To be frank, we've played some pretty crappy games by Suns standards, in that time-frame, and we have still won.

In most of our wins lately, we've even coasted, looking lethargic and disinterested.

Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, etc haven't "figured us out."

Your Dallas team is playing very well, but for you to think the Mavs (or any other team) some how has us figured out is just idio. . .er. . .silly.

I definitely agree.

I hope the Mavs or any other team competitive team in the Western Conference think they have figured out the Suns. IMO, the Suns have been playing at about 3/4 speed while racking up wins. When the Suns decide to shift from third to fourth gear then we'll see how the other teams stack up. I would actually prefer for the Suns to enter the playoffs with the other teams feeling smug. This Suns' team does not lack confidence and I am still waiting for them to put the pedal to the metal.

 

[hawaiiansun]

It doesn't matter, stop trying to make excuses. We have 0 wins against the top teams in the west. When it comes down to it a loss is a loss.

 

[Covert Rain]

Coulda woulda shoulda. Any talk about the Suns should have done this or if they had that talk is just speculation. What counts is scoreboard. The Suns HAVE TO prove themselves on the court. Until they start winning on a regular basis against the elite West teams people should question where they rank.

Right now Dallas is the best team in the West until the Suns prove otherwise. I think the Suns are better then both the Spurs and Utah. I also think they COULD beat the Mavs in a 7 game series. However, until the Suns prove it on the court, people should question how good this team is against the West elite.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Coulda woulda shoulda. Any talk about the Suns should have done this or if they had that talk is just speculation. What counts is scoreboard. The Suns HAVE TO prove themselves on the court. Until they start winning on a regular basis against the elite West teams people should question where they rank.

Right now Dallas is the best team in the West until the Suns prove otherwise. I think the Suns are better then both the Spurs and Utah. I also think they COULD beat the Mavs in a 7 game series. However, until the Suns prove it on the court, people should question how good this team is against the West elite.

Firstly, I do find it funny how Utah counts against the Suns losses to the “elite” but Detroit and Chicago don’t count for the “elite” wins sounds like some cherry picking is going on to me. I don't think anyone is questioning that the Suns need to prove it because they do need to win against the western powers, however, fans of other teams who don't watch any Suns games simply spouting stereotypes of the Suns and archetypes of the fans while passing that off as good deeply thought out analysis makes me sick. That's why I called him a troll.

For the record, this Dirk guy's analysis is not good sound analysis and it's obvious the guy catches 4-5 Suns games a year max and listens to Reggie Miller's commentary exclusively. Next, he'll probably tell us how Tim Thomas opened up lanes for Steve Nash and was the key to his success. I guess it's his opinion and he is entitled to it.

The problems with the Suns in early November have no bearing on their overall record against "elite" teams. They are vastly different team today than they were pre November 10. Let's let the rest of the year plays out and as the Suns start to beat these "elite" teams I predict our Mavericks friends will either blow it off as meaningless pre playoff games or not even show up.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm essentially in agreement with Treesquid on this. Winning in the regular season is nice against the "elite" teams but winning in the Playoffs is what counts. The Suns have made it to the WCF's two years in a row. Also remember the Suns lost to Dallas in the WCF last year with the absence of Amare, KT and then Raja.

As of today if the WCF's were being played, the Suns would have all three of these players available.

I think talking smack in the regular season is meaningless. A better barometer is whether the Suns are playing well when they enter the Playoffs, not just regular season games against the "elite." The Playoffs is an entirely different game.

 

[Forrestham]

We have pretty good record at 23-8. We have only lost 2 games in the last 6 weeks so I think to base our season on the 1st 2 weeks of losses have no bearing and this seems to be micromanaging as Chicago and Detroit in the past week on the road should count as elite teams

 

[greensborohill]

Here's some reasons why the Suns won't beat Dallas:

The main reason is that when the Suns truly need a stop, they can't get it. Middle of the second quarter, no problem for the Suns. Under fifty seconds in a game, hell no. Hence their record in close games. For an "elite" team, they suck when it comes to nut cutting time.

The second reason is that the Suns don't value possessions. This is sort of related to point #1. You can't play 46 minutes of run and gun and then the last 2 minutes work on the clock and work for a "good" shot. Not every "open" shot is a "good" shot. A wide open 30 ft shot is not a good shot unless there's 2 seconds on the shot clock. But there's the Suns jacking shots with only 5 seconds gone on the shot clock in a 2 point game with under two minutes to play.. Happens every game after game.

Found this on another board. The first point is part of what I'm saying. The second point is an arguement I haven't heard.

 

[elindholm]

Hence their record in close games. For an "elite" team, they suck when it comes to nut cutting time.

This season, in games decided by three points or fewer or in overtime, the Suns are 4-4. Dallas is 2-0 -- mainly because, when they aren't on their game, they can't keep it competitive -- and San Antonio is 2-3. I'd say the Suns are doing fine in this category compared to the "elite" teams.

The second reason is that the Suns don't value possessions.

The Suns are in the middle of the league in turnovers per game, which is astounding given how many more possessions they generate in 48 minutes than an average team. Their turnover differential is better than Dallas's. They lead the league in offensive efficiency. Their possessions are more valuable than those of any other team, and they understand that very well.

A wide open 30 ft shot is not a good shot unless there's 2 seconds on the shot clock.

Says who? That's the thinking of a team that can't make those shots consistently. If your friend had followed the Suns at all this year, he'd know that the Suns have won or extended several games on shots just like the one he describes.

But there's the Suns jacking shots with only 5 seconds gone on the shot clock in a 2 point game with under two minutes to play.. Happens every game after game.

Yep. You know what else happens game after game? The Suns win. Think about it.

Listen, greensborohill, you come on here with your trolling act, then play the old "I'm just trying to have a discussion" card whenever anyone calls you out. If you want to be taken seriously, do your homework and come up with "analysis" that isn't blatantly contradicted by the facts.

Otherwise, you're just an annoying fool who thinks he's an expert because his team happens to be at the top of the league standings. Get your act together, or buzz off.

 

[Chaz]

I would classify all these "experts" that say the Suns 'style' can't win in the playoffs as wishful thinking.

The logic looks something like this: No team has done it recently so it can't be done.
Many things are considered impossible until someone does it.

D'Antoni has said it many times and I agree. If the Suns don't win it will be because they didn't play well enough or weren't good enough. It won't be because of their "style of play".


The goal is to be healthy and playing well in the late spring not counting how many 'elite' teams they beat in the first 2 weeks of the season.

 

[mribnik]

Found this on another board. The first point is part of what I'm saying. The second point is an arguement I haven't heard.

The first part is just somebody elses repeat of what you said earlier. It's an argument that you've repeated but have yet to prove. The second part is exactly the reason the Suns generally struggle in close games in the beginning of the season but get better toward the end and in the playoffs. Their offense has problems, not their defense. This is exactly what I said at the beginning of this thread. The defense is fine, good even.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just another thought.

IMO, if the Suns had someone with height who could slow down a player like Dirk, their Playoff chances would be greatly improved. Dirk is a tough matchup for the Suns. Marion just does not have enough height to consistently guard a player like Dirk. Dirk needs to have to shoot over a taller defensive player to be slowed down. I'm not saying the Suns can't beat a team like the Mavs in the Playoffs (because they can), only that their task would be easier if they had a better matchup against Dirk.

 

[Skkorpion]

In the end, if we don't lose a key player to injury again, we'll get a chance to prove or disprove our worth.

Right now, IMO, Dallas is the best NBA team.

 

[Mainstreet]

In the end, if we don't lose a key player to injury again, we'll get a chance to prove or disprove our worth.

Right now, IMO, Dallas is the best NBA team.

I can't argue with your opinion right now simply based on their current records as of today. However, I do remember Dallas folded like a bad chair in the Championships against Miami. The Suns were down three core players when they played Dallas in the WCF so I don't think the Suns blinked... they were just outmanned after Raja got injured.

Anyway, I respect Dallas immensely. Dirk is a real load and Josh Howard is not bad either. The best team will be determined in the Playoffs. I just hope the Suns continue to stay healthy.

 

[cly2tw]

Dallas has a huge amount of individual talents accumulated on that team and their offense heavily relies on one-on-one plays with some picks and screens.

To win against them, the team needs a good overall defense that would not let any of Terry, Harris or Howard appear like a superstar there. More importantly though, they need to have a reasonably good bigman that could sufficiently bother if not neutralize Dirk. In addition, an enforcer type, true dominant scorer like Wade, Kobe, or Amare of 05 playoffs will make that task easy.

Miami was such a team in last finals. Lakers, Spurs, and Nuggets when Antony is back will have very good chance against Mavs.

As for the Suns, we'll be able to increase our overall defense but we don't have good defenders against Dirk or Howard. But if Amare stays healthy and slowly regains his dominance in the paint over the season, I like our chance in a 7-game series better. Remember that we lost in the WCF because we got worn out with both injury woos and lack of bench depth.

 

[Gaddabout]

The emergence of Leandro as a scorer with Nash on the bench should change the tenor of those games. He's gaining confidence every week, and you have to believe he's nearing a point where he'll clear that barrier that causes him to freeze up in important games or disappear when he's had a rough go early in a game.

What's probably going to decide this for the Suns is whether or not they can find some consistent scoring from the 8th spot in the rotation. It's critical for those times when Marion, Stoudemire, and/or Bell fade. It's critical so the Suns can win games against good teams without their A game.

 

[Gaddabout]

To win against them, the team needs a good overall defense that would not let any of Terry, Harris or Howard appear like a superstar there.

The Suns don't have an answer for Terry or Howard when they get rolling. Unfortunately, the Suns pace seems to inspire them.

Wouldn't it be nice if Banks found some kind of role so D'Antoni would have confidence to stick him out there for 5 minutes a game for defense on Terry?