Marion concerns???

[ActingWild]

I'm not sure why, but it seems there's a sentiment that we should be moving Shawn. I know that he's not going to take over a game on the offensive end (at least not most of the time) but the guy consistently plays at a higher level than a lot of other maximum contract guys. The last 2 years he's nearly been a 20/10 small forward who isn't a show boat and does nothing but come to play. I think trading him would be a HUGE mistake unless we're getting a huge piece of the puzzle.

Just as a way of analysis, here's the SportsLine rankings for small forwards last season...I wouldn't be so casual about including Shawn in a trade any time soon.

<<Peja Stojakovic had a terrific season and helped carry the Kings while Chris Webber was rehabbing his surgically-repaired knee. Stojakovic altered his game when Webber returned, which had an effect on his total production. Shawn Marion had another great season and showed that he is a consistent performer. He's a strong scorer and rebounder.


SMALL FORWARDS

PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Peja Stojakovic, SAC 92.32 77.89 +14.43 81 40.3 24.2 6.3 2.1 48.0 92.7
2. Shawn Marion, PHO 91.06 94.63 -3.57 79 40.7 19.0 9.3 2.7 44.0 85.1
3. Richard Jefferson, NJ 84.65 79.50 +5.15 82 38.2 18.5 5.7 3.8 49.8 76.3
4. Lamar Odom, MIA 84.56 53.33 +31.23 80 37.5 17.1 9.7 4.1 43.0 74.2
5. Carmelo Anthony, DEN (Rookie) 84.19 N/A +84.19 82 36.5 21.0 6.1 2.8 42.6 77.7>>

Also, before we start thinking about trading JJ away to free up time for Q (If we weren't going to let JJ go for McGrady, I don't think we're losing him for Q) here's their rankings for shooting guards.

<<Last season, McGrady was edged out by Kobe Bryant, but this season the league's top scorer narrowly defeated Paul Pierce. Both were injured heading into the final weeks of the season, which made the race very interesting. Michael Redd stepped up his game in a big way, and is now considered one of the top players at his position.


SHOOTING GUARDS

PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Tracy McGrady, ORL 88.41 100.42 -12.01 67 39.9 28.0 6.0 5.5 41.7 79.6
2. Paul Pierce, BOS 87.87 91.82 -3.95 80 38.7 22.9 6.5 5.1 40.2 81.9
3. Michael Redd, MIL 85.85 75.13 +10.72 82 36.8 21.7 5.0 2.3 44.0 86.8
4. Vince Carter, TOR 82.71 54.96 +27.75 73 38.2 22.5 4.8 4.8 41.7 80.6
5. Joe Johnson, PHO 82.13 65.89 +16.24 82 40.6 16.7 4.7 4.4 43.0 75.0
6. Jason Richardson, GS 82.00 75.75 +6.25 78 37.6 18.7 6.7 2.9 43.8 68.4
7. Cuttino Mobley, HOU 80.60 78.10 +2.50 80 40.4 15.8 4.5 3.2 42.6 81.1
8. Eddie Jones, MIA 79.81 58.49 +21.32 81 37.0 17.3 3.8 3.2 40.9 83.5
9. Michael Finley, DAL 79.80 78.87 +0.93 72 38.6 18.6 4.5 2.9 44.3 85.0
10. Kobe Bryant, LAL 79.19 101.10 -21.91 65 37.6 24.0 5.5 5.1 43.8 85.2
11. Richard Hamilton, DET 77.46 78.00 -0.54 78 35.5 17.6 3.6 4.0 45.5 86.8
12. Kerry Kittles, NJ 75.90 63.28 +12.62 82 34.7 13.1 4.0 2.5 45.3 78.7
13. Doug Christie, SAC 74.36 74.82 -0.46 82 33.9 10.1 4.0 4.2 46.1 86.0
14. Ricky Davis, BOS 73.60 84.30 -10.70 79 31.3 14.4 4.5 3.3 46.9 71.8
15. Desmond Mason, MIL 72.31 76.99 -4.68 82 30.9 14.4 4.4 1.9 47.2 76.9
16. Manu Ginobili, SA 71.79 52.76 +19.03 77 29.4 12.8 4.5 3.8 41.8 80.2
17. Ray Allen, SEA 69.90 86.63 -16.73 56 38.4 23.0 5.1 4.8 44.0 90.4
18. Jalen Rose, TOR 69.48 85.51 -16.03 66 37.8 15.5 4.0 5.0 40.2 81.0
19. Quentin Richardson, LAC 68.38 47.22 +21.16 65 36.0 17.2 6.4 2.1 39.8 74.0
20. Reggie Miller, IND 67.39 64.73 +2.66 80 28.2 10.0 2.4 3.1 43.8 88.5 >>

Just food for thought before we get to excited about losing either of these guys. We've got a great core, let's keep it together (and adding Q to the bench to come in when JJ spells Nash is a great idea).

 

[George O'Brien]

There is a certain "grass is greener on the other side" thing that sweeps through this board every few days with the "trade everybody but Amare" thing.

Marion gets targeted because he has a big contract and there is no way to trade for another guy with a big contract without giving up a guy with one. Most of these proposals end up with guys who are older and less productive, but like to shoot.

There are recurring bouts of wanting to trade for some impossible player like Ratliff who has a huge contract. "Let's give Marion, and Voskuhul, and Vijuanic, and Jacobsen, and the Chicago pick, and whatever loose change you can find under the seats." None of them actually make sense because no one trades solid big men for wing guys not named Kobe.

If they actually get Richardson, does that mean they will trade Marion for a center? No. It is a pipe dream.

 

[elindholm]

If they actually get Richardson, does that mean they will trade Marion for a center? No. It is a pipe dream.

Depends on who the center is. Are you saying that it's wrong for us to consider it, or wrong for us to think -- based on what they've done and said so far -- that the Suns might be considering it? I just want to be sure I understand the exact way that we're falling short in your eyes.

 

[George O'Brien]

If they actually get Richardson, does that mean they will trade Marion for a center? No. It is a pipe dream.

Depends on who the center is. Are you saying that it's wrong for us to consider it, or wrong for us to think -- based on what they've done and said so far -- that the Suns might be considering it? I just want to be sure I understand the exact way that we're falling short in your eyes.

I can think - Marion for Duncan. I can consider it and dream about it. But to SERIOUSLY consider that a viable deal, I'd say "No".

 

[Chaplin]

I can think - Marion for Duncan. I can consider it and dream about it. But to SERIOUSLY consider that a viable deal, I'd say "No".

Marion for Duncan?? Are you drinking again?

Marion for Dalembert...

Marion for Duncan...

Yeah, I can see how you can make those two things seem the same...

 

[elindholm]

I can think - Marion for Duncan. I can consider it and dream about it. But to SERIOUSLY consider that a viable deal, I'd say "No".

Um, fine, but what does this have to do with my question. Did I miss the "Marion for Duncan" thread?

 

[3rdside]

I'm not too sure exactly what marion's salary is, and i have never wanted to trade the guy unless it is just too, too good to refuse, but, now that we have signed nash to his deal, comparing stats and all that other stuff, doesn't Marion's contract look a whole lot more reasonable to everybody else?

I honestly think Marion is one of the best team players in this league...

 

[Chaz]

Did I miss the "Marion for Duncan" thread?

Hey GOOD IDEA!

Maybe we can get them to throw in Parker for Eisley and the Chicago pick!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

yeah, ya gotta look at the circumstances also. i'd consider trading shawn for dampier in a sign and trade 'cuz then we'd be set at every position (dropping jj down to sf, which is not a stretch for him). and the warriors would prolly do it so as to get something for their big (who you say would never be traded for a wing - no one is trading a big for dampier).

also, the dalembert thing would not be a stretch if the sixers really did sign mark blount. they've been looking for a complimentary scorer for iverson and marion would be the perfect fit for them.

 

[wsupkid]

Since he doesnt take over a game he is a GREAT role player. His value is sooo high if we trade him we get a lot in return. The role he plays on the SUNS is a role players position. (for the max money)

Marions value on another team may be worth the max.

 

[scotsman13]

Marions value on another team may be worth the max.

marions value on this team is worth max value. the people that know basketball make that choose when they give him the contract.

it would be nice if the fans backed the suns chooses on contract but in the end it doesnt matter as long as the team feels that he is worth it. so far we havent heard anything out of the team on them trading marion. as a matter of fact what we have heard is that he is part of the core of the team and we are building around marion, amare and jj. so unless some deal comes out of no where i think that there is very little chance that he i will be going anywhere.

 

[TigToad]

Marion

Marion is so good for the Suns. I've said this before, but a team can only have one go to guy... Marion could be that guy, but he is willing to let Amare be that guy. That is so huge. Jordan could not have been Jordan without Pippen willing to give up the spot light and the ball when it counted, but he got the job done for the Bulls when the coverage was ridiculous on Jordan. Marion is our Pippen. I really like the nucleus of our team. Really, we are weak at the 5, but we did not have hardly any depth at guard. Now we have a viable point guard and back up in Nash and Barbosa. We have a legit 2 and 3 starter with Johnson and Marion and a very high quality back up (assuming he stays) in Q. We have Amare at PF and a big ? at center.

Considering that keeping a starting line up healthy for a season is unlikely, Q is a great addition as we have a lot of flexibility amongst our starters and back ups in where they can play.

Are we missing a true center? Yes.
Do we have the money to get one? No.

However, we weren't going to get one, realistically we are going to have to draft one if we want one.. as such, I'd prefer that we not trade the Bulls pick. This does not sit well with most Suns fans as it means we won't be winning achampionship next year... we wouldn't have won a championship next year with Kobe or McGrady, either as we would have about the same strength of the floor and still no center... however, we'd also lack depth and we would have more personality conflicts as we put multiple 'center of the offense' players on the floor.

Lets give Amare the chance to develop into a Garnett type player. Garnett has never had as much other scoring behind him. If we do decide to make a trade for a center, let it be Johnson and not Marion we part with.

 

[ActingWild]

yeah, ya gotta look at the circumstances also. i'd consider trading shawn for dampier in a sign and trade 'cuz then we'd be set at every position (dropping jj down to sf, which is not a stretch for him). and the warriors would prolly do it so as to get something for their big (who you say would never be traded for a wing - no one is trading a big for dampier).

also, the dalembert thing would not be a stretch if the sixers really did sign mark blount. they've been looking for a complimentary scorer for iverson and marion would be the perfect fit for them.

See, I still don't think we're getting enough in value. We're trading away a leader and SOLID SOLID player for an older player that's had 1 good, not great year (and that was in his contract year). Dalembert would make more sense, but even then, he hasn't proven anything yet and his best year (college and pros) has been when he's average about 8 points and 8 rebs a game. Granted, he's young so he can definitely improve. However, I think we're giving up a sure thing for someone with "potential" that may never pan out.

I think with a decent point guard we're going to see Shawn living up to that contract.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I like Marion's game, and I like Marion, but I think there is a good chance the Suns are going to try to trade. Here are my reasons.

1. Marion was--in fact--offered for McGrady. So the Suns have already been considering life without Shawn. They have not been considering the future without JJ or Amare.

2. Amare went to recruit Nash--Shawn didn't. What does that say? Shawn has been here longer, he's our only max player at present, and we take Amare only. It seems to me that if the Suns were not at least considering the possibility of trading Shawn, he would have been in Dallas with the bunch.

3. Marion's salary. Its not that he makes too much. In fact, the FA market seems to indicate that his salary is in line. He would get as much as he is getting now if he were a FA this summer. The deal is that his salary package is more tradeable than JJ's. JJ doesn't make enough to even out a trade for a big man. Most big men we seek in the FA market will be over paid.

4. Signing Q. Wow, is that the handwriting on the wall. Now the Clippers might match--and I believe they will. Kobe's not going to the Clips and they will have to significantly overpay to get anyone else to play for them.

My prediction though. Kobe stays in LA or goes to the Knicks (yes, Kobe asked Isiah to come visit him today. Nike will double its endorsement $ to Kobe if he goes to NY. So the money is similar and Kobe looks like a great guy for signing for the vet min.).

The Clips match for Q at the last moment.

Marion stays.

Dice gets an outrageous offer from Detroit and we can't match cause we are waiting on the Clips.

We are glad because Lampe and Vroman bust out this year (had to throw a little optimism in there somewhere).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Marion's a leader? Marion could be a go to guy? Marion's our Pippen? Do you guys watch basketball other than the Suns because if you did you would know how comically homeristic those three statements above are. Marion's never made a big play in his life - he's never been vocal about anything - that is except to say at the beginning of this year when we were faltering that the ball needs to go through him and Steph because that was what was successful last year - and to say the guy has anywhere near the skills or abilities of Pippen is just flat out wrong - just because he's 6'7 and can dunk and is lanky doesn['t mean he's comparable to Pippen - give me a break guys.

Marion's a good player - nothing less, nothing more - and if he can be moved walong with Chi-town's pick for a Center to finally give us a major defensive presence this team would be freaking ******** not to make such a move.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

My prediction though. Kobe stays in LA or goes to the Knicks (yes, Kobe asked Isiah to come visit him today. Nike will double its endorsement $ to Kobe if he goes to NY. So the money is similar and Kobe looks like a great guy for signing for the vet min.).

If Kobe goes to the Knicks, and Nike ups the endorsement deal to compensate for the difference, there will be a massive investigation.

If any link is made between the NY and Nike offers (collusion of some sort) lots of people will have hell to pay.

Max fine is 2.5 million and forfiture of draft picks (a la Joe Smith). Not to mention sanctions taken against Kobe's agent, and the NY management team.

 

[scotsman13]

Marion's a leader? Marion could be a go to guy? Marion's our Pippen? Do you guys watch basketball other than the Suns because if you did you would know how comically homeristic those three statements above are. Marion's never made a big play in his life - he's never been vocal about anything

cheese did you watch the last couple games of the season? marion made a big shots in the last seconds to help us win the game. but to say that marion isnt a leader or vocal is wrong. the game against the clippers he came and and blasted jj because of his bad preformace. he has been the captian of the tea for years.

as far as compairing pippen to marion, you are right they are very differant players. marion doesnt have the ball handling of pippen, or as good of a one on one defender. pippen isnt anywhere close to being as good of a rebounder, he may not have been as good at steals in marion (it is close), and he was no where close to the shot blocker that marion is. but pippen has played in the shadow of some of the best players in the nba and that has helped him a lot. i would say that they were both about as good of scorers.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

cheese did you watch the last couple games of the season? marion made a big shots in the last seconds to help us win the game. but to say that marion isnt a leader or vocal is wrong. the game against the clippers he came and and blasted jj because of his bad preformace. he has been the captian of the tea for years.

as far as compairing pippen to marion, you are right they are very differant players. marion doesnt have the ball handling of pippen, or as good of a one on one defender. pippen isnt anywhere close to being as good of a rebounder, he may not have been as good at steals in marion (it is close), and he was no where close to the shot blocker that marion is. but pippen has played in the shadow of some of the best players in the nba and that has helped him a lot. i would say that they were both about as good of scorers.

hate to make it seem like we're ganging up on you scots, but did you ever WATCH scottie pippen play? to compare the two is just plain ludicrous. pippen was considered one of the top 50 players to EVER PLAY THE GAME. marion is nowhere near that company. pippen could get his own shot whenever he wanted, marion does not have that ability. that's HUGE! pippen was also an extremely talented one-on-one defender - light years ahead of marion in that regard. the only area in which marion could be considered a better player is his rebounding.

and who cares if he hit a SINGLE big shot in a meaningless game at the end of horrible season. he does NOT hit big shots. he does NOT possess the ability to win games. and he is NOT a vocal leader (despite what you might have seen with jj - which i don't even recall . . . can anyone else verify this calling-out of marion's?).

now don't get me wrong, i think marion is an excellent ROLE player. but if we can get something more for him, like a defensive presence center, i do so in a heartbeat. even if it means giving up some stats in the trade. it's called maximizing the versatility of your talent. if q is not matched by the clips we have a wealth of talent at the swing positions. why not turn that wealth of talent into merely a strenght while buttressing a weakness of ours, center?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Shawn Marion...

All-Star...Olympian...Role Player.

Can you two go back to the Cards board?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Shawn Marion...

All-Star...Olympian...Role Player.

Can you two go back to the Cards board?

because we disagree with you we should leave? and I'M the one told that my maturity level needs to be raised? get a life. i offer concrete arguments as to why i would be willing to trade marion and i get personally attacked. nice. classy bro.

and i never said that i didn't like marion, i just think he's the piece of our puzzle that is most marketable/easily replaced to improve the team. and yeah, i think he's a role player - the best possible role player a team could have. but no, i don't think he's a superstar. [btw, everyone will be happy to know that instead of including any anger at being told to leave i typed what i WANTED to say, and then erased it. i must be maturing.]

 

[TigToad]

Outta here

No prob, I won't post on the Suns side of this board again.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

You two are constantly throwing about negativity.

You have come here and said you will be the "new darkside"

Why? Is there some joy to it?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

No prob, I won't post on the Suns side of this board again.

I was speaking to cheese and ouchie.

It was a rhetorical question.

 

[wsupkid]

MArion according to me! ( who else counts?)

When was Marion the biggest threat? When he was slashing to the basket with some force! The last time he was explosive was what his second year in the NBA?

If he gets off hit butt, slashes to the basket, shows his outside range goes for rebounds. He will turn into the player we spent our max $$'s for. Nobody can guard him.

When will this happen? When he is on onothe team.I hope I am wrong cuz I love Marion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You two are constantly throwing about negativity.

You have come here and said you will be the "new darkside"

Why? Is there some joy to it?

ugh, i don't want to get into this entire debate again over here. if you don't like my opinion just ignore me.

and we haven't been all negativity. hell, we're both happy at the prospect of the signing of q. but that wouldn't support your generalizations about us, would it?

forget it. i have neither the energy nor the inclination to discuss this. brand me if you will.