Marion concerns???

[LakeShowMan]

I'm not sure why, but it seems there's a sentiment that we should be moving Shawn. I know that he's not going to take over a game on the offensive end (at least not most of the time) but the guy consistently plays at a higher level than a lot of other maximum contract guys. The last 2 years he's nearly been a 20/10 small forward who isn't a show boat and does nothing but come to play. I think trading him would be a HUGE mistake unless we're getting a huge piece of the puzzle.

Just as a way of analysis, here's the SportsLine rankings for small forwards last season...I wouldn't be so casual about including Shawn in a trade any time soon.

<<Peja Stojakovic had a terrific season and helped carry the Kings while Chris Webber was rehabbing his surgically-repaired knee. Stojakovic altered his game when Webber returned, which had an effect on his total production. Shawn Marion had another great season and showed that he is a consistent performer. He's a strong scorer and rebounder.


SMALL FORWARDS

PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Peja Stojakovic, SAC 92.32 77.89 +14.43 81 40.3 24.2 6.3 2.1 48.0 92.7
2. Shawn Marion, PHO 91.06 94.63 -3.57 79 40.7 19.0 9.3 2.7 44.0 85.1
3. Richard Jefferson, NJ 84.65 79.50 +5.15 82 38.2 18.5 5.7 3.8 49.8 76.3
4. Lamar Odom, MIA 84.56 53.33 +31.23 80 37.5 17.1 9.7 4.1 43.0 74.2
5. Carmelo Anthony, DEN (Rookie) 84.19 N/A +84.19 82 36.5 21.0 6.1 2.8 42.6 77.7>>

Also, before we start thinking about trading JJ away to free up time for Q (If we weren't going to let JJ go for McGrady, I don't think we're losing him for Q) here's their rankings for shooting guards.

<<Last season, McGrady was edged out by Kobe Bryant, but this season the league's top scorer narrowly defeated Paul Pierce. Both were injured heading into the final weeks of the season, which made the race very interesting. Michael Redd stepped up his game in a big way, and is now considered one of the top players at his position.


SHOOTING GUARDS

PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Tracy McGrady, ORL 88.41 100.42 -12.01 67 39.9 28.0 6.0 5.5 41.7 79.6
2. Paul Pierce, BOS 87.87 91.82 -3.95 80 38.7 22.9 6.5 5.1 40.2 81.9
3. Michael Redd, MIL 85.85 75.13 +10.72 82 36.8 21.7 5.0 2.3 44.0 86.8
4. Vince Carter, TOR 82.71 54.96 +27.75 73 38.2 22.5 4.8 4.8 41.7 80.6
5. Joe Johnson, PHO 82.13 65.89 +16.24 82 40.6 16.7 4.7 4.4 43.0 75.0
6. Jason Richardson, GS 82.00 75.75 +6.25 78 37.6 18.7 6.7 2.9 43.8 68.4
7. Cuttino Mobley, HOU 80.60 78.10 +2.50 80 40.4 15.8 4.5 3.2 42.6 81.1
8. Eddie Jones, MIA 79.81 58.49 +21.32 81 37.0 17.3 3.8 3.2 40.9 83.5
9. Michael Finley, DAL 79.80 78.87 +0.93 72 38.6 18.6 4.5 2.9 44.3 85.0
10. Kobe Bryant, LAL 79.19 101.10 -21.91 65 37.6 24.0 5.5 5.1 43.8 85.2
11. Richard Hamilton, DET 77.46 78.00 -0.54 78 35.5 17.6 3.6 4.0 45.5 86.8
12. Kerry Kittles, NJ 75.90 63.28 +12.62 82 34.7 13.1 4.0 2.5 45.3 78.7
13. Doug Christie, SAC 74.36 74.82 -0.46 82 33.9 10.1 4.0 4.2 46.1 86.0
14. Ricky Davis, BOS 73.60 84.30 -10.70 79 31.3 14.4 4.5 3.3 46.9 71.8
15. Desmond Mason, MIL 72.31 76.99 -4.68 82 30.9 14.4 4.4 1.9 47.2 76.9
16. Manu Ginobili, SA 71.79 52.76 +19.03 77 29.4 12.8 4.5 3.8 41.8 80.2
17. Ray Allen, SEA 69.90 86.63 -16.73 56 38.4 23.0 5.1 4.8 44.0 90.4
18. Jalen Rose, TOR 69.48 85.51 -16.03 66 37.8 15.5 4.0 5.0 40.2 81.0
19. Quentin Richardson, LAC 68.38 47.22 +21.16 65 36.0 17.2 6.4 2.1 39.8 74.0
20. Reggie Miller, IND 67.39 64.73 +2.66 80 28.2 10.0 2.4 3.1 43.8 88.5 >>

Just food for thought before we get to excited about losing either of these guys. We've got a great core, let's keep it together (and adding Q to the bench to come in when JJ spells Nash is a great idea).

I'm sorry, but any list that has Kobe Bryant as the 10th best SG is not worth the bandwith, or paper it is put on. Absolutely rediculous.

 

[ActingWild]

I just don't think Dan had all facets of his game working as much as Shawn has. Defense was exceptional to be sure, and the guy had more heart than anyone I've ever seen, and he definitely wasn't afraid of taking the last second 3 (I'm smiling just thinking about that long bomb he dropped on the Lakers and then jumped into the stands). But when he was a clutch outside shooter he coudn't hit a thing within the arc and unfortunately, that sometimes included lay-ups (didn't do that all the time...but I can recount a few wide open lay ups he missed). I'm not at all trying to bash on Majerle in anyway because he's one of my all time faves...but I think I was more frustrated with his missed lay-ups than with Shawn's 3s. I just think Shawn brings more to the table than Dan did in terms of all around ball. Who would I want taking the last second shot? DAN. But hitting that last shot won't do any good if you're down by 10 points. I think Shawn's ability gives us a better chance at being in the game at the end.

 

[Chaplin]

Can you please point out the differences between Nash and Kidd?

Thank you.

Why? Marion was a rookie and a very young player when Kidd was here. If Kidd would have stayed, then Marion would probably be better now than he really is. Nash provides the same kind of opportunity for him.

 

[tobiazz]

and though i agree that shawn is more physically talented, i'd take more majerles than marions any day of the week. heart of a warrior, clutch three-point shooter, excellent defender. marion wishes he could be majerle.

Majerle was the master of taking too many 3's and he wasn't fast enough to be a great defender. Marion (3rd year) could certainly defend Majerle (3rd year) better than Majerle could defend Marion. Majerle became so scared of getting blocked toward the end of his first tenure that he would turn around during layups and throw the ball up behind his head, ALL THE TIME. That was sad. Won't argue with the heart component at all, though, because he played through some pain.

 

[loudandobnoxious]

Why? Marion was a rookie and a very young player when Kidd was here. If Kidd would have stayed, then Marion would probably be better now than he really is. Nash provides the same kind of opportunity for him.

Actually, he was a rookie and a sophomore. Granted, Marion did jump 7 and a half points in one season...

 

[Chaplin]

Majerle was the master of taking too many 3's and he wasn't fast enough to be a great defender. Marion (3rd year) could certainly defend Majerle (3rd year) better than Majerle could defend Marion. Majerle became so scared of getting blocked toward the end of his first tenure that he would turn around during layups and throw the ball up behind his head, ALL THE TIME. That was sad. Won't argue with the heart component at all, though, because he played through some pain.

Dude, Majerle was a terrific defensive player. For many years, he was our best defensive player.

 

[devilalum]

If Kidd would have stayed, then Marion would probably be better now than he really is.

Are you trying to sound like Yogi Bera?

 

[tobiazz]

For many years, he was our best defensive player.

That's not saying much. Who was the second best?

I'm not saying Majerle was not a very good defender. However, he couldn't be a great one-on-one defender like Pippen or Jordan due to his lack of lateral mobility. I can't really speak for his very early career but he was not a very quick guy by 94 or so. He pulled a lot of tricks to defend well (not Stocktonesque amounts). So he was a good, not great defender (just like Marion). Agree?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My favorite bad stereotype of Shawn Marion.

He gets "uncontested defensive rebounds"

Marion is #18 in offensive rebounds per game in the NBA. At 6'7

Marion is #15 in defensive rebounds per game. At 6'7

Good thing that everyone just stands back and lets Marion get those rebounds. Especially since he played a good portion of the year as a 6'7 215 pound power forward. I am sure all those bigger players he played against said "I could go for this offensive rebound, but instead I will let Shawn get his."

And I imagine that all those times he managed to elude getting boxed out, the guys guarding him were like "Man I sure would like to see the Matrix fly...go ahead and get yours."

I really hope he just "happens to fall" into nearly 10 boards a game again. Sheesh...imagine if the guy actually tried.

 

[loudandobnoxious]

My favorite bad stereotype of Shawn Marion.

He gets "uncontested defensive rebounds"

Marion is #18 in offensive rebounds per game in the NBA. At 6'7

Marion is #15 in defensive rebounds per game. At 6'7

Good thing that everyone just stands back and lets Marion get those rebounds. Especially since he played a good portion of the year as a 6'7 215 pound power forward. I am sure all those bigger players he played against said "I could go for this offensive rebound, but instead I will let Shawn get his."

And I imagine that all those times he managed to elude getting boxed out, the guys guarding him were like "Man I sure would like to see the Matrix fly...go ahead and get yours."

I really hope he just "happens to fall" into nearly 10 boards a game again. Sheesh...imagine if the guy actually tried.

I think what they meant was that Marion jumps so high, his rebounds are basically all uncontested.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Guys who scored 19 points and averaged 9 boards a game:

Garnett
Shaq
Duncan
Randolph
Jermaine O'Neal


That's it. In the whole NBA.

Now am I saying that Marion is as good as these guys. Not exactly. However, he is certainly better than a mere "roleplayer" or "vastly overrated".

On this board I would say he is vastly underrated.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think what they meant was that Marion jumps so high, his rebounds are basically all uncontested.

That's not uncontested. The ability to just jump does not make you a great rebounder. It is having the smarts to now how to position yourself for a board...for understanding the angles that the ball careens off of the rim.

Rebounding is about dedication and effort. About committing to it. That is why there are only 16 guys in the whole NBA who had over 9 boards. Those guys are either huge or really athletic and smart.

 

[loudandobnoxious]

That's not uncontested. The ability to just jump does not make you a great rebounder. It is having the smarts to now how to position yourself for a board...for understanding the angles that the ball careens off of the rim.

Rebounding is about dedication and effort. About committing to it. That is why there are only 16 guys in the whole NBA who had over 9 boards. Those guys are either huge or really athletic and smart.

I was being sarcastic, but I certainly understand your point.

 

[TigToad]

Pippen

Okay, I started this Pippen mess, and the conversation that erupted is not what I was saying.

What I was saying was that Marion had an opportunity to play a role for the Suns similar to the role that Pippen played for the Bulls. They had their superstar in Jordan, we are trying to develop our Superstar in Amare. He can't do it alone and it is a good and necessary thing to have players like Nash and Marion around him if he is to succeed on a consistant basis.

Thats all I meant folks, the fact that I think he (Marion) is tremendously underrated does not change, but I was never trying to make him the second coming of Scottie Pippen.

 

[slinslin]

Guys who scored 19 points and averaged 9 boards a game:

Garnett
Shaq
Duncan
Randolph
Jermaine O'Neal


That's it. In the whole NBA.

Now am I saying that Marion is as good as these guys. Not exactly. However, he is certainly better than a mere "roleplayer" or "vastly overrated".

On this board I would say he is vastly underrated.

Amare Stoudemire
Elton Brand
...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Amare Stoudemire
Elton Brand
...

Oooh good point. They were hurt so they didn't show up on NBA.Com's sortable stats.

Still...nice company to be in.

 

[sunsfn]

That's not saying much. Who was the second best?

I'm not saying Majerle was not a very good defender. However, he couldn't be a great one-on-one defender like Pippen or Jordan due to his lack of lateral mobility. I can't really speak for his very early career but he was not a very quick guy by 94 or so. He pulled a lot of tricks to defend well (not Stocktonesque amounts). So he was a good, not great defender (just like Marion). Agree?

I remember a game that Majerle played against Jordan late in their careers at Phoenix. Majerle had 4 fouls in guarding Jordan and was upset on each call, they showed them all over and it was obvious that the ref was giving the calls to Jordan.
After the game they asked Jordan about this, his comment (with a grin) was, Majerle fouled me at least once!! and he knew he was getting the calls.
Majerle was an excellent defender even late in his career.

Some of the comments on this board about suns players have to be coming from people that did not see these players play a lot.
I have watched "almost every game" (YES I HAVE) the suns have ever played, and there are people saying things that are simply not true because they are not watching the games that close.

People actually believe some of the articles written by sports writers that were not even at the games or watched parts of it on a tv.

 

[sly fly]

I remember a game that Majerle played against Jordan late in their careers at Phoenix. Majerle had 4 fouls in guarding Jordan and was upset on each call, they showed them all over and it was obvious that the ref was giving the calls to Jordan.
After the game they asked Jordan about this, his comment (with a grin) was, Majerle fouled me at least once!! and he knew he was getting the calls.
Majerle was an excellent defender even late in his career.

Some of the comments on this board about suns players have to be coming from people that did not see these players play a lot.
I have watched "almost every game" (YES I HAVE) the suns have ever played, and there are people saying things that are simply not true because they are not watching the games that close.

People actually believe some of the articles written by sports writers that were not even at the games or watched parts of it on a tv.

Totally agree with you. The Majerle crap about him being a poor defender is comical and should be taken with a grain of salt. These dudes don't know what good D is. And, obviously haven't received a forearm shiver in their day.

Secondly, I'm sick of seeing Marion's stats put up to show what a great player he is. Hell, IMO every stat is skewed to a point. The bottom line is W's & L's.

Did Marion's team compete last year? Yes or No? No! They sucked when Marbury was here and they sucked when Marbury left. One of the common denominators was Shawn Marion. How many wins did his 1.485673 rebounds per minute get them?

Show me a player who knows what his weaknesses are, and plays to his strengths... and I'll show you a winner.

(After this rant, I feel better. There is hope for Marion. He is a very athletic player who could possibly season into a smart, heady player. He's GOT to know his role. Take the ball to the hole STRONG, play lock down D on the opposing 2/3/4, and hit the open 15-20 footer. Take the 3 in the flow of the game, and don't fall in love with it when you hit 2 in a row. You'll hear no more complaints from me if he does those things.)

 

[Chaplin]

Totally agree with you. The Majerle crap about him being a poor defender is comical and should be taken with a grain of salt. These dudes don't know what good D is. And, obviously haven't received a forearm shiver in their day.

Secondly, I'm sick of seeing Marion's stats put up to show what a great player he is. Hell, IMO every stat is skewed to a point. The bottom line is W's & L's.

Did Marion's team compete last year? Yes or No? No! They sucked when Marbury was here and they sucked when Marbury left. One of the common denominators was Shawn Marion. How many wins did his 1.485673 rebounds per minute get them?

Show me a player who knows what his weaknesses are, and plays to his strengths... and I'll show you a winner.

(After this rant, I feel better. There is hope for Marion. He is a very athletic player who could possibly season into a smart, heady player. He's GOT to know his role. Take the ball to the hole STRONG, play lock down D on the opposing 2/3/4, and hit the open 15-20 footer. Take the 3 in the flow of the game, and don't fall in love with it when you hit 2 in a row. You'll hear no more complaints from me if he does those things.)

Of course, Tracy McGrady played on the worst team in the league and filled up the stat sheet, but does that make him a bad player?

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'll jump in here. Anyone that says that Majerle was not a good defender demonstrates his own ignorance about basketball. Majerle was traded from the Suns to the Cavs, where he was one of the top 2 defensive players on the best defensive team in the league at the time. He was the starter in Miami because of his defense, not his offense. He won games for the Suns with his defense (how many times did Majerle steal in-bound passes to win games--he did all the time).

IMO, Stephs game hurt Shawn Marion. He is a greyhound and his game flourishes moving up and down the court. Steph is a great half-court guy and showed no inclination to run (he SHOULD be a great fast break pg but did seem to want to be).

Marion will probably benefit from Nash's presence more than any other player on the team. Nash pushes the ball, better than anyone in the NBA except Kidd. We KNOW Shawn will be with him on the break. We haven't seen Amare run much yet--I hopeful he'll run well.

I have a feeling Q would be a better breaking 2 than JJ. Vroman's supposed to be a runner. If we can get the boards, this is going to be a fun team to watch.

 

[sly fly]

Of course, Tracy McGrady played on the worst team in the league and filled up the stat sheet, but does that make him a bad player?

No, it only made him a whiny little...

And, he faked his "knee injury" or whatever it was so he could what the final games in street clothes.

McGrady jacked up shots (with people in his face) nearly every time down the court. He's a great talent, however he's a bit on the "sensitive" side when push comes to shove.

Just ask Kobe, who lit him up.