Marion, JJ, Jake and #7 for TMac

[thegrahamcrackr]

Geez, I believe he was trying to be sarcastic...

Really? Well if that is the case I totally messed that one up. Im exhausted, that has to be the reason.

Seriously though, I am totally missing the sarcastic element. I keep reading it, and it seems like he was honestly trying to make a case for it even being a close swap.

 

[Chaplin]

Really? Well if that is the case I totally messed that one up. Im exhausted, that has to be the reason.

Seriously though, I am totally missing the sarcastic element. I keep reading it, and it seems like he was honestly trying to make a case for it even being a close swap.

It sounded to me like he was turning Joe's comment around on him--he said Tmac was better, but it appeared scotsman wanted to appear to... damn... I don't know... sheesh, I'm tired too.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

It sounded to me like he was turning Joe's comment around on him--he said Tmac was better, but it appeared scotsman wanted to appear to... damn... I don't know... sheesh, I'm tired too.

hehe, geez Scottsman, get back here and tell us if you were being sarcastic.

I think I also figured in his previous posts about Amare being our superstar, and not wanting TMAC or Kobe. He has been pretty adamant that we should simply build around Amare. In fact, I think he even stated he would rather not get one of them, even if we gave nothing up (like signing Kobe as a FA). So I assumed his Marion arguement would be geared towards that.

Bah.

 

[Joe Mama]

yea joe you are right marion is a much better player then tmac if you just look at the box scores. with marion you get 9-10 boards a game, the second best steals person in the nba (best forward or center). the ability to make a differance without having to get the ball 20 times a game. and also another big thing is not having the bad back that tmac. heck maybe we are getting ripped off on a straight marion for tmac trade. but if you put in jj and a top 10 pick this is a trade that people will be crying for years is one of the worst in nba history. i personally dont care about media attention what i do care about is having a team that will be succussful for years. if i really thought that bring in tmac or kobe or both would match up with amare and lead this team to the promise land then i would be all off it, but i dont. i believe that finding players who will match up with amare should be our biggest concern. not wondering if we would have to trade half of our team to get someone and then wondering of we may loose the rest because of the player we traded for doesnt get along with the other because they must have the ball in their hand at all time. tmac lead his team to 18 wins, kobe if he doesnt get his way blows up his team to cost them wins, does this sound like players who will match up with an amare first offense? remember inside out is how you make a team win now outside in.

Scotsman, it would be helpful if you would break up your posts into smaller paragraphs. I know that I find it hard to read very large paragraphs like this. Thanks.

Your assessment of the box scores must be subjective. Yes, Shawn Marion grabbed 9.3 rebounds per game last season. That's very impressive from a small forward. However, Tracy McGrady was no slouch on the boards either. Last season he averaged 6 boards per game. Shawn Marion was second in the NBA in steals. He averaged 2.1 steals per game, but Tracy McGrady averaged 1.4 per game. Essentially Shawn Marion will get you an extra 2 steals every 3 games.

Here's the difference between Shawn Marion and Tracy McGrady. Tracy McGrady commands so much attention from an opposing defense that he makes the game easier for his teammates. Shawn Marion is one of those guys that benefits from the attention his teammates get. He is a complementary player although a very good one. Last season and Tracy McGrady averaged 5.5 assists per game alongside a very, very weak team. Shawn Marion averaged 2.2 assists per game.

Again, comparing Shawn Marion and Tracy McGrady is like comparing apples and oranges. They fill different roles on their teams. Shawn Marion is a complementary player with a maximum contract. Tracy McGrady is the man. He's a legitimate superstar. He has said many times though that he does not want to have to carry a team. He wants someone to take some of his shots and all of the defensive pressure he sees. I honestly don't think he would have any problem giving up 3-4 shots per game or more to Amare and others.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Here's the difference between Shawn Marion and Tracy McGrady. Tracy McGrady commands so much attention from an opposing defense that he makes the game easier for his teammates. Shawn Marion is one of those guys that benefits from the attention his teammates get. He is a complementary player although a very good one. Last season and Tracy McGrady averaged 5.5 assists per game alongside a very, very weak team. Shawn Marion averaged 2.2 assists per game.

Joe Mama

I understand what your meaning is, but there is an inherent flaw in your logic. Tracy McGrady has had no help in Orlando for the last couple years. Who was their 2nd best player last year? Juwan or Gooden. Maybe. The year before it was Darrell Armstrong. Since Vince, Tracy hasn't had anyone the same level as an Amare Stoudemire, Stephon Marbury or even Shawn Marion. Tracy McGrady demands a lot of attention. Right, absolutely right. But then again, opposing teams didn't really have to worry about guarding anyone else, right?

Could that be why Orlando had the worst record in the league. (I will say, though, for all their problem and all the triple-teaming, TMac STILL was unbelievable, back problem or no)

And again, for the record, I am still with graham on the whole "bring in Kobe" thing--but I am all for bringing in TMac. And the only reason, the ONLY one, why I prefer Kobe over TMac is that we'd have to give up a lot for TMac, and not so much (if at all) for Kobe.

 

[fordronken]

I think we should make this trade if only because it would put Voskuhl in Orlando, thus breaking open the floodgates on a slew of commercials, advertisements and merchandise for 'Lil Jake Voskuhl.

 

[Joe Mama]

I understand what your meaning is, but there is an inherent flaw in your logic. Tracy McGrady has had no help in Orlando for the last couple years. Who was their 2nd best player last year? Juwan or Gooden. Maybe. The year before it was Darrell Armstrong. Since Vince, Tracy hasn't had anyone the same level as an Amare Stoudemire, Stephon Marbury or even Shawn Marion. Tracy McGrady demands a lot of attention. Right, absolutely right. But then again, opposing teams didn't really have to worry about guarding anyone else, right?

Could that be why Orlando had the worst record in the league. (I will say, though, for all their problem and all the triple-teaming, TMac STILL was unbelievable, back problem or no)

OK, I read through this post a few times, and I don't understand the point about the flaw in my logic. I don't believe there's any flaw in my logic. Could you explain where the flaw is a little more clearly please? Maybe it's just too early in the morning.

Please don't forget that when Orlando had some decent role players who could knock down a few shots (Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong, and Pat Garrity) they were a pretty good team. McGrady has never had an inside player like Amare Stoudemire that opponents have to double-team. Despite the shooting percentages last season, Tracy McGrady is a much better shooter than Shawn Marion. He is also better than JJ. He does not miss very many open shots.

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

How does this trade work under the current CBA anyhow? Does anybody know when Shawn Marion's BYC status ends? Here is the excerpt from the CBA recording the length of BYC status.

http://www.nbpa.com/cba/articleVII.html#section1

(iii) A player’s Base Year Compensation shall be computed as follows with respect to Contracts or Extensions entered into on or after July 1, 2001:

(A) During the first 365 days from the date a player’s Base Year Compensation goes into effect ("Year One"), his Base Year Compensation will equal the greater of (1) the Salary for the last Season of his preceding Contract or, in the case of an Extension, the last Season of the original term of the Contract, or (2) 50% of the Salary for Year One of his new Contract (or extended term, if applicable).

(B) A player’s Base Year Compensation will expire and be of no further effect on the 366th day of his new Contract (or extended term, if applicable).

Based on that I would say that the very soon as his BYC status ends is July 1. I'm not sure whether the contract actually takes effect. Could the Phoenix Suns just agreed to take a player for the Orlando Magic with the draft pick them consummate the trade after July 1 when the Phoenix Suns would be under the salary cap anyways? Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

OK, I read through this post a few times, and I don't understand the point about the flaw in my logic. I don't believe there's any flaw in my logic. Could you explain where the flaw is a little more clearly please? Maybe it's just too early in the morning.

Joe Mama

You say that McGrady is "much, much better" than Shawn. Where do you figure that? Ok, you figure that from his performance on the court, which is spectacular, no question. But put Shawn Marion on that team instead of McGrady and what happens? Shawn instantly becomes the best player on the Magic and I guarantee his statistics would go UP.

 

[elindholm]

Good point, Joe Mama. I think the trade wouldn't be able to happen until July 1, so, as you suggest, the Suns would have to agree to draft a particular player for the Magic in advance.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns are going to be under the cap so Marion's BYC status doesn't matter anyway.

 

[elindholm]

If I'm not mistaken, the date at which the Suns go under the cap and the date on which Marion's BYC status expires are the same -- July 1. So they both matter, until they both don't matter.

 

[George O'Brien]

If I'm not mistaken, the date at which the Suns go under the cap and the date on which Marion's BYC status expires are the same -- July 1. So they both matter, until they both don't matter.

Any deal involving Marion could not be officially completed until after July 1st.
In practical terms, it would mean having the Suns take whoever the Magic wanted.

 

[fordronken]

While I agree that JJ is a lot to pay, I'm not going to pass up a bona fide superstar because of a guy with potential who hasn't shown it in any team that was either going anyhwere, or not in the summer leagues.

As for having other other options, I'm sure we can get some scoring(a third option) through free agency.

Barbosa
Barry
McGrady
Stoudemire
Shaquille O'Neil(or if we can't get him, somebody like Macej Lampe)

Suppose we sign Barry for something like four years. By the time his production starts to fade, Zarko, Vujanic and Lampe should be stepping up quite nicely.
••••••••••••••••••••••••
Now for a completely orthogonal and none-too-serious side note, the most fun sounding(and from a purely aural standpoint) fantasy lineup would be the following:

Marko, Zarko, Darko, Pau and Yao.

 

[George O'Brien]

While I agree that JJ is a lot to pay, I'm not going to pass up a bona fide superstar because of a guy with potential who hasn't shown it in any team that was either going anyhwere, or not in the summer leagues.

As for having other other options, I'm sure we can get some scoring(a third option) through free agency.

Barbosa
Barry
McGrady
Stoudemire
Shaquille O'Neil(or if we can't get him, somebody like Macej Lampe)

Suppose we sign Barry for something like four years. By the time his production starts to fade, Zarko, Vujanic and Lampe should be stepping up quite nicely.

I think Brent Barry would be a good pickup whether or not the Suns make any other deal. He solves several problems the Suns have:

1. He give veteran leadership on a team that is very young and inexperienced.
2. He is experienced at playing the point.
3. He is considered a pretty good on the ball defender.
4. He can shoot the lights out from the outside.

BB has not been a big time scorer, but that is as much a function of playing along side guys like Gary Payton or Ray Allen and Ray Lewis. Those guys get more open looks because no opponent can leave Barry alone.

At 6'6", Barry has the size to play either guard position and could be a fantastic backup SG if Barbosa or Vujanic really blossom in a year or two.
He is not preferable to getting a super star, but he may be a viable alternative when the other options fail.

 

[Chaplin]

While I agree that JJ is a lot to pay, I'm not going to pass up a bona fide superstar because of a guy with potential who hasn't shown it in any team that was either going anyhwere, or not in the summer leagues.

As for having other other options, I'm sure we can get some scoring(a third option) through free agency.

Barbosa
Barry
McGrady
Stoudemire
Shaquille O'Neil(or if we can't get him, somebody like Macej Lampe)

Suppose we sign Barry for something like four years. By the time his production starts to fade, Zarko, Vujanic and Lampe should be stepping up quite nicely.
••••••••••••••••••••••••
Now for a completely orthogonal and none-too-serious side note, the most fun sounding(and from a purely aural standpoint) fantasy lineup would be the following:

Marko, Zarko, Darko, Pau and Yao.

Did I actually read Shaquille O'Neal??

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Based on that I would say that the very soon as his BYC status ends is July 1. I'm not sure whether the contract actually takes effect. Could the Phoenix Suns just agreed to take a player for the Orlando Magic with the draft pick them consummate the trade after July 1 when the Phoenix Suns would be under the salary cap anyways? Joe Mama

I am pretty sure that is how it would have to work. Same thing happened (minus the pick) in the JK/Marbury deal. It was announced like a month before it actually happened.

The interesting part about it is we wouldn't really know Kobe's status yet. So the suns may try and influence Orlando's soon to be pick decision into a guy they might want to keep themselves. Preferably, I have wanted the suns to pursue Kobe, and if they strike out, then trade for TMAC. Just on the basis one comes for nothing, where we give up a lot to get the other. However, I don't know if that will be possible

 

[elindholm]

The interesting part about it is we wouldn't really know Kobe's status yet. So the suns may try and influence Orlando's soon to be pick decision into a guy they might want to keep themselves.

I'm not sure whether you were implying this, but I don't think the Suns could agree to a deal with Orlando, then pull out after realizing they can sign Bryant. I mean, they could, but it would foster all sorts of ill will throughout the league and not be worth it.

I know this question has been asked a million times, but when is Bryant's opt-out date? That's what you meant by not knowing his "status," right? His status as a free citizen of the U.S. won't be known for long after that, but I don't think that will enter much into any decisions.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I'm not sure whether you were implying this, but I don't think the Suns could agree to a deal with Orlando, then pull out after realizing they can sign Bryant. I mean, they could, but it would foster all sorts of ill will throughout the league and not be worth it.

I know this question has been asked a million times, but when is Bryant's opt-out date? That's what you meant by not knowing his "status," right? His status as a free citizen of the U.S. won't be known for long after that, but I don't think that will enter much into any decisions.

Well, I was implying that the could, but you are right, it would cause problems. I mean the Suns could simply tell the magic their plan to pursue Kobe, and take a player that Orlando likes so they could potentially pull off a deal later. So more of keeping their options up, not backing out at the last minute.


About Kobe's status, I meant whether or not he will leave. He is for sure opting out, but there still isn't a clear sign of his intentions, and there most likely wont be until July 1st.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You say that McGrady is "much, much better" than Shawn. Where do you figure that? Ok, you figure that from his performance on the court, which is spectacular, no question. But put Shawn Marion on that team instead of McGrady and what happens? Shawn instantly becomes the best player on the Magic and I guarantee his statistics would go UP.

wrong. shawn marion cannot get his own shot much less create for others. mcgrady can get his own shot any time he wishes, even against double teams. he also hands out close to 6 assists per game, which means he is getting better shots for his teammates too.

there is a chasm of talent between marion (who i very much like as a role player) and mcgrady (who is undeniably a franchise player).

 

[scotsman13]

400 shoots per year. that averages out to being almost 5 shoots per game more then marion got last year in his highest scoring season.

do i think that tmac is a better offensive player then marion? yes i do. do i think that a trade of marion and jj and the suns draft pick is to much for tmac? heck yes and then some. marion and the draft pick may end up being to much for tmac. lets look at what we may get for tmac vs what we may get for staying with marion, jj and the draft pick. and understand i think that bring in tmac is a much better choose then bring in kobe.

what are the advanages of being in tmac?
1. tmac is a proven scorer who in the east is almost unstoppable at scoring.

2. he may bring more people to the games raising the income of the team.

3. if you need a late game score he stand a good change at getting you those points.

now the con.
1. how will tmac take being the backsit to amare? (yes, i know some of you dont feel that he should take a backsit to amare as he is a proven player who is already a superstar. but the simple true is if you have a big man who can do what amare can do you go to them before you ever think about going to a guard or a small forward, except when you need a late game shot.)

2. bad back. back problems are an injury that seem to never go away. they seem to follow that player for the rest of their lifes. after having googs and penny on the team, i am not really to jump on any player that may miss over 30% of their games and even when they do play they wont be the player that they were before.

3. adding tmac still doesnt address the real problems with the team. defense. even more importantly post defense. and to give up your teams 2 best defensive player and 2 and 3 scoring options may hurt this team more then helping it.

4. who is going to run the offense? this year barbosa brought the ball up court and then gave it to jj to get the team into it offensive flow. tmac isnt a point guard. he is a great scorer but he doesnt make the people around him better, he doesnt give up his game to find and improve his teams. so he isnt a point guard. barbosa is a couple years away from being a top 10 point guard in the nba if he ever is. so who is going to get the team into its offense?

5. draft pick. the suns have been one of the top all round judges of talent in the draft for the pass 15 years. you can list the number of players that the suns have found and developed and turned into player who have gotten at least one all star game out of them. not many teams can say that. look at the clippers. they alway have very good picks and then nothing comes out of that. if i told you right now that the suns were going to draft a player with the 7th pick that would give you 15 points 8 boards and 2 blocks a game and match up with amare and shawn would form one of the all time best front lines in nba history to have not worn green? would you still be so set to give up marion and jj for tmac?

6 jj, is still coming into his own from the draft to the end of the season jj averaged 20, 5, 5. he out played labron james in their last match up and has proven to be a very solid player in the 4th quarter.

all and all i think that this team would be better off keeping the draft pick, marion and jj and looking for a player that will help fill up their weaknesses then a player who will only add to their strenghts aready.

 

[Evil Ash]

Just a little bit of an update on this rumor ...

Accoding to Bob Kemp, a local sports radio broadcaster, the listed trade is what the Magic are asking for not what the Suns are offering (no mention of the package that the Suns offering).

 

[Joe Mama]

400 shoots per year. that averages out to being almost 5 shoots per game more then marion got last year in his highest scoring season.

What's the point? Tracy McGrady shoots that much because he is a great offensive weapon on an otherwise weak team. He probably wouldn't get quite as many shots per game playing alongside Amare Stoudemire. Shawn Marion does not take that many shots because he is a complementary player.

now the con.
1. how will tmac take being the backsit to amare? (yes, i know some of you dont feel that he should take a backsit to amare as he is a proven player who is already a superstar. but the simple true is if you have a big man who can do what amare can do you go to them before you ever think about going to a guard or a small forward, except when you need a late game shot.)

I'm not sure why he should have to take a back seat to Amare. If he forces shots when Amare is open down low is a problem, but neither one of them really needs to play second fiddle to the other. Besides, I still think McGrady will have no problem starting the ball inside. He'll be happy as hell to have that option.

2. bad back. back problems are an injury that seem to never go away. they seem to follow that player for the rest of their lifes. after having googs and penny on the team, i am not really to jump on any player that may miss over 30% of their games and even when they do play they wont be the player that they were before.

That's what scares the hell out of me. Shawn Marion and JJ are iron men. I wouldn't be surprised if McGrady misses substantial time within the next few years as he gets older.

3. adding tmac still doesnt address the real problems with the team. defense. even more importantly post defense. and to give up your teams 2 best defensive player and 2 and 3 scoring options may hurt this team more then helping it.

Shawn Marion may be the Suns second-best defender, but he isn't THAT much better than Tracy McGrady. I still think Marion's defense is overrated.

Please don't forget that this trade with leave the Phoenix Suns with $33 million in team salary next season. At the very least they should have $10 million to spend in free agency. If they could somehow unload Jahidi White's contract they would have another $5.8 million to spend. It's not like their wouldn't be somebody to replace these roster spots.

4. who is going to run the offense? this year barbosa brought the ball up court and then gave it to jj to get the team into it offensive flow. tmac isnt a point guard. he is a great scorer but he doesnt make the people around him better, he doesnt give up his game to find and improve his teams. so he isnt a point guard. barbosa is a couple years away from being a top 10 point guard in the nba if he ever is. so who is going to get the team into its offense?

Come on now. Tracy McGrady is every bit the ball handler and distributor that JJ is. Last season on a terrible team he averaged 5.5 assists per game. I don't see how losing JJ and gaining Tracy McGrady changes anything in that sense.

5. draft pick. the suns have been one of the top all round judges of talent in the draft for the pass 15 years. you can list the number of players that the suns have found and developed and turned into player who have gotten at least one all star game out of them. not many teams can say that. look at the clippers. they alway have very good picks and then nothing comes out of that. if i told you right now that the suns were going to draft a player with the 7th pick that would give you 15 points 8 boards and 2 blocks a game and match up with amare and shawn would form one of the all time best front lines in nba history to have not worn green? would you still be so set to give up marion and jj for tmac?

I agree that I would prefer they did not give up the draft pick, but let's face it. They have a much better idea of the caliber of the players that will be available in the draft and we do.

6 jj, is still coming into his own from the draft to the end of the season jj averaged 20, 5, 5. he out played labron james in their last match up and has proven to be a very solid player in the 4th quarter.

all and all i think that this team would be better off keeping the draft pick, marion and jj and looking for a player that will help fill up their weaknesses then a player who will only add to their strenghts aready.

even though it sounds like I am arguing for the Phoenix Suns to make this trade for McGrady, I agree with you. If it was Shawn Marion and the draft pick and Jake Voskuhl or even Shawn Marion and JJ, I might feel otherwise.

Joe Mama

 

[PhxGametime]

Tracy McGrady is my favorite player in league (Tim Duncan favorite bigman) outside of the Suns players but...

The roster I'd like to see next year:

Marcus Camby F/C
Amare Stoudemire PF
Shawn Marion SF
Joe Johnson G/F
Leandro Barbosa G

Milos Vujanic PG
Andre Iguodala G/F
Maciej Lampe F/C
Zarko Cabarkapa F
Jake Voskuhl C
Casey Jacobsen SG
Jahidi White C
Howard Eisley PG


With Camby, Stoudemire, Marion, Johnson, Iguodala, and Barbosa - Suns have athleticism to match up with most teams. Frontline would be 1 of the best shotblocking frontlines and adding Camby, Iguodala, and Vujanic to lasts year team, 1 of best in steal department - with the ability to go big in White at C, Cabarkapa at SF, and Johnson or Iguodala at PG. The three new players all have ability to score on any given night (Vujanic another shooter) and Camby and Iguodala also improve rebounding - Iguodala in the passing game.

Camby averages about 24 missed games a year but with Lampe, Cabarkapa, Voskuhl, and White all back - all 4 could pick-up their games in his absence. The Suns would have: 1 First Round Pick (Cleveland) and 2 Second Round Picks (Cleveland and Orlando) if a trade needed to be done.

Anywho, I could change my mind

 

[Chaplin]

Camby averages about 24 missed games a year but with Lampe, Cabarkapa, Voskuhl, and White all back - all 4 could pick-up their games in his absence. The Suns would have: 1 First Round Pick (Cleveland) and 2 Second Round Picks (Cleveland and Orlando) if a trade needed to be done.

This is where you lost me. Camby is going to demand A LOT of money. And yet you are totally ok with our other guys picking up the slack (which in all likelihood they would have to do). What's the point in spending all that money if you don't even expect the guy we're bringing in to play the whole season?

I'd rather take the chance on Kobe or TMac than do that. People on this board are overrating his back problems, IMO. He got hammered ALL THE TIME because of his being double- and triple-teamed (like Allen Iverson), and yet he has a fairly minor back problem that everyone is crying about. How much better would TMac be (and more healthy) if he DIDN'T have to worry about being tripled all the time??