Marion UnHappy in Phoenix?

[scoutmasterdave]

I am in the tiny minority who likes Allen Iverson.

I like Iverson a lot - he's an amazing player. I just don't see how he would fit on a team for which the biggest needs are defense and rebounding.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

I like Iverson a lot - he's an amazing player. I just don't see how he would fit on a team for which the biggest needs are defense and rebounding.

With Amare in the game, AI could have 500 million open looks just like House and Bell or Barbosa did this season, but more. AI Would kill on this team, in a 2 Guard role, AI would fill a better role then Garnett would.

Garnett, Amare and Diaw would not fit in D Antoni system together

 

[scoutmasterdave]

With Amare in the game, AI could have 500 million open looks just like House and Bell or Barbosa did this season. AI WOuld kill on this team

Sure, but you don't land his $16M salary without dumping Marion, and there goes our rebounding (defense is debatable). I don't hate the idea - I really don't, but I don't see where our rebounding is coming from.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

AI WOuld kill on this team

That, or just plain kill the team?

I love him, he plays with a ton of heart. But he just isn't meant for this open system that is based on floor spacing, ball movement - and Amare.

 

[NastyOne]

Dude I am a hardcore NBA Fan, I'm saying the only people suns could get would be AI or Webber from Philly, period. AI I know does not fit the system D'Antoni Runs, Just I'm saying Sixers are not trading a guy with almost the same skill set as Marion in Iguedoula, plus Korver and Dalambert for Marion. Your tripping, I was just wondering how the Suns would play if AI was on the team, I get it it will not happen

Well i disagree

While Iguodala is younger than Marion, hes not even close to being the same caliber player yet, and Shawn is now in his prime years.

So if im Philly and i know i can't get rid of AI and Webber, i might as well build around them.

Marion would be the perfect garbageman for the Sixers, cause hes best when attacking the lanes.And playing with AI and moving back to SF, he would put up similar numbers to what hes doing in Phoenix.

AI breaks defenses down kinda like Nash, except he trys to score so this gets him more attention when attacking, so that would leave Marion unguarded alot of the times when defenses collaspe on AI.

Marion would be the perfect compliment to Iverson's game.

So if im Philly do i move Korver and Dalembert with Igoudala? Yes, cause both are overpaid and Korver can easily be replaced.While Dalembert just doesnt fit into the system Philly runs.

Now if we did get Korver in this deal, i would move James Jones to Portland and try and get Steve Blake.

No need to have James Jones and Kyle Korver on the same team.

Nash
Bell
Igoudala
Stoudemire
Diaw


Dalembert,K.Thomas,T.Thomas,Barbosa,Korver,Blake and our draft picks.

Pretty nice looking team.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

That, or just plain kill the team?

I love him, he plays with a ton of heart. But he just isn't meant for this open system that is based on floor spacing, ball movement - and Amare.

Iverson would play the exact same role Barbossa Plays when he starts, I mean the quick sprints to the baskets, driving and popping the outside shot, Iverson could co-exist with this team, I'm not saying do it. But I would not mind seeing it

 

[NastyOne]

Iverson would play the exact same role Barbossa Plays when he starts, I mean the quick sprints to the baskets, driving and popping the outside shot, Iverson could co-exist with this team, I'm not saying do it. But I would not mind seeing it

Big difference is Barbosa was a bench player subbing in for a injured player.

No way would we last an entire season with two PG's in our already small lineup.

Jason Terry/Devin Harris & Cassell/Mobley/Livingston and every other dangerous backcourt would murder us night in and night out.

We would have to change our entire team to make an Nash/Iverson backcourt work.

First we would need another shotblocker in the lineup to cover up the breakdowns Nash and Iverson WILL have on defense.And how many available shotblockers are there that can also shoot the 15footer? meaning we have another guy on the court that cant shoot.And don't mention Kurt Thomas, cause hes not a shotblocker.

Next we would have to move Bell to the bench cause NOWAY can we have another small player at SF to go with a small backcourt.So that takes another shooter out of the lineup.

This now moves Barbosa even farther down the bench.

To hell with it, the list just keeps growing.

Iverson would ruin this team, even if hes a great talent.

 

[nowagimp]

Good post.

Shawn Marion is playing out of position and that is his problem.

Shawn is not a go to guy, he just averages 20 points and 11 rebounds this year!!! Plus steals, tipped balls, and blocked shots.

The Suns do not have a big man to back him up in the middle when his guy gets around him.
Prince and Bowen are very good defenders, but are absolutely helped by Duncan and Wallace.

All defenders get beat off the dribble against good offensive players, it happens every game against the best defenders, but the ones that look the best are the ones that have someone like Duncan and Wallace to reject the ball or the player and make them pass instead of making a layup.

I knew that somebody here sees through it all. Yes! All defensive players get beat off the dribble by good offensive players! Thats why shot blockers are so valuable, and help defenders(like Raja and shawn) are so important.

 

[sunsfn]

With Amare in the game, AI could have 500 million open looks just like House and Bell or Barbosa did this season, but more. AI Would kill on this team, in a 2 Guard role, AI would fill a better role then Garnett would.

Garnett, Amare and Diaw would not fit in D Antoni system together

It would take about one game before Amare would have AI by the neck!

AI plays the game as hard as anyone and wants to win as hard as anyone, he has just not learned how to use his teammates or share the ball, and never will.

By the way, Korver is one of the worst players in the NBA!
He is a 3 point shooter and that is all. I watched some Philly games last year and could not believe how they paid him a big contract the year before.

 

[Joe Mama]

I respect your opinions here joe, but neither of our arguements have much objective content do they? We can agree to disagree on our subjective evals regarding what would be IF a situation were to occur(shawn playing on the pistons). One thing I can say objectively is that "good" defensive players "seem" to grow on trees, the same teams(trees), that is. Team defense is what the spurs and pistons are all about so to say that help defense doesnt matter in an individuals perceived performance flies in the face their very philosophies. To say that prince does not benefit from having shot blockers like ben and rasheed wallace backing him up is hard to digest. A physical athletic type player might bodyup prince and take him to the rim, but that is not possible with big Ben and Rasheed patrolling the lane is it? The same is true of bowen and Duncan, and as much as I dislike Manu, he's a better help defender than any suns player.

I didnt say that Marion gets less help defense(in attempted help) but lesser quality help defense. Surely, we arent saying that the suns help D is as good as the spurs or pistons? Of course, a defender plays differently when he has excellent shot blocking or excellent help defenders backing him up. This is especially true when the offensive player can shoot and penetrate. If you play him tight, he may drive around you, if not he may shoot. That situation is greatly simplified with good shot blocking as is apparent to many suns fans. This is exactly the philosophy of the spurs on the suns, defend the three, force the penetration to the shot blockers.

Yes, I'll agree with you here. I'm going to backtrack a little here. It's easier for a defender to take risks and body up on offensive players when they know their are shot blockers behind them. Yes, but I never said that it doesn't help them at all to have the Wallace's and Duncan in the lane. Of course it does. I'm saying that those two players, especially Tayshaun Prince, are still better defenders overall than Shawn Marion. Now if you want to argue that those guys are better because they can put more focus on their defense (now on talking more about Bruce Bowen) I can buy that. I would counter by saying that they still played better defense.

Hell, I might even concede that if Shawn Marion was on San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan playing behind him AND he wasn't expected to contribute much on offense like Bruce Bowen he might be a better overall defender. But this leads me to the overall point of my other post.

Shawn Marion was an All-Star last year, yes? Was Bruce Bowen an All-Star? Shawn Marion made $15 million last season. Bruce Bowen made $3.4 million. There isn't a GM, fan, or player who thinks that Bruce Bowen is a better NBA player than Shawn Marion. How is he being overlooked or disrespected because people thought those guys played better defensively?

Oh yeah, and shawn gets alot more steals that Prince(more than 2x as many this year) and not just this year, every year, so the claim that the only thing that shawn does better defensively than prince is rebound is not quite true.

That said, I like prince and would, like you, make that trade because the suns are not deep at the '2' position and they are at '3', and shawn cant play the '2' on offense at all. I never said that shawn was a better defender than prince, but just like the offensive performances of suns are circumspect in the suns system, I suspect that pistons perform better in the pistons defensive scheme than they would in other less disciplined systems.

As far as defending swingmen its really not so simple. Shawn plays stackhouse pretty well and Bowen does not. In the mavs series it seemed that manu played stack alot better than Bowen when he did. Stack had at least 2 strong performances while bowen was guarding him. It may be related to the idea that stack is bothered by ballhawking, which Manu and marion are good at and bowen is not. Bowen has averaged about 0.9stl/game over his career, clearly not a ball hawk. Shawn may play Jason Richardson better than anyone. Shawn also plays Artest very well. And yet there are guys that can fake shawn out of his shoes, like sam I am. Did you notice that Cuttino Mobley couldnt score well on shawn, but he did play well against Raja? Raja did better than shawn on Cassel, at least foulwise.

You know, I dont expect that you will change the way you think about this, but there is little objective content in your arguement for me to reconsider the way I think. No offense, I just agree to disagree.

You are right. Shawn Marion did get more steals than Tayshaun Prince this year and in years past. Even without the help behind him he's probably still a more aggressive defender than prince... depending on the matchup. I also assume that he knocks the ball away from bigger slower players in the middle more often since prince spends more time on the perimeter.

Of course each defender we are talking about is going to match up better than others against particular players or player types. I think will we are talking about though is who is the better overall defender at his position. On those other teams Shawn Marion might be near as good as those guys or even as good in some cases. There are drawbacks to going to those other teams as well though. On each of those teams I doubt Shawn Marion crabs 12 rebounds per game. He probably does not score more than 15-16 points per game. It's questionable whether he is an All-Star on those teams.

Again, I like Shawn Marion's game. I really appreciate his effort, and what he brings. I just think that if he is the second-best player on your team, especially when it comes to the offense you are going to have problems. I'm not sure he's a maximum contract player, and if he is he needs to stop complaining about lack of respect. I just don't know what more he wants.

Whether it's because he had less help around him or not I think those other players deserved to be on the NBA defensive teams more than him. I do not think he was slighted. The people voting can only look at what these players actually did on defense. They are devoting on what they might have done on another team.

Anyhow, I'm dying to ask you a question. You've To send me a private message to let me know the origin of your name.

Joe

I actually agreed with you a lot more than you thought I would, didn't I?

 

[Errntknght]

nowagimp, "All defensive players get beat off the dribble by good offensive players! Thats why shot blockers are so valuable, and help defenders(like Raja and shawn) are so important."

Shot blockers by themselves are not that valuable - you need good team defense to get the most out of them. Especially when the shot blocker is a C or PF, someone else on the team has to rotate to the man they leave to prevent an easy 'layoff' pass and to compete for the rebound.

I wouldn't say that Raja was a particularly good help defender - certainly not in helping out when a guard gets loose from his man. He's effective when he doubles but he seldom does that because he tends to guard people that can't be left alone.

I would say that James Jones is our best overall help defender - primarily because he's smart about choosing when and where to help. He's not much of a straight up defender though because he's easily pushed around and he isn't particularly quick.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Big difference is Barbosa was a bench player subbing in for a injured player.

No way would we last an entire season with two PG's in our already small lineup.

Jason Terry/Devin Harris & Cassell/Mobley/Livingston and every other dangerous backcourt would murder us night in and night out.

We would have to change our entire team to make an Nash/Iverson backcourt work.

First we would need another shotblocker in the lineup to cover up the breakdowns Nash and Iverson WILL have on defense.And how many available shotblockers are there that can also shoot the 15footer? meaning we have another guy on the court that cant shoot.And don't mention Kurt Thomas, cause hes not a shotblocker.

Next we would have to move Bell to the bench cause NOWAY can we have another small player at SF to go with a small backcourt.So that takes another shooter out of the lineup.

This now moves Barbosa even farther down the bench.

To hell with it, the list just keeps growing.

Iverson would ruin this team, even if hes a great talent.

What was the Ideal 5 they used in the Playoffs, that was on the floor the most, Marion, Diaw Barbosa, Bell and Nash. You could easily have a 5 of Amare, Diaw, Bell, Iverson and Nash, without losing too much rebounding the spacing with those guys with this offense would work perfect. Then you could start with a 5 Traditional of Kurt, Amare, Diaw, Iverson then Nash.

Amare and Diaw are effiecient enough with the 15 foot jumper, to spread the offense and pop 15 foot jumpers, I see them both improving there jumpers by next year, and I see them both big enough to help when the back court breaks down. I'm not saying pull the trade, This thread started by a guy saying nobody could help from the 76ers. That team would be bad, the speed would be unreal and It could work.

 

[Errntknght]

Iverson is a huge volume shooter who needs a very good offensive rebounding team around him to put back a decent fraction of his many misses. Does that sound remotely like the Suns?

 

[Evil Ash]

This frees up cap space so we can afford the above moves and it makes us look even stronger for the future. We won't have to break the team up in 2 years.

Unless we trade him to a team under the salary cap, we aren't freeing up squat.

I just hope we keep him for this upcoming year and then trade him if need be. Another massive roster makeover isn't going to help in anything

 

[The Commish]

Another massive roster makeover isn't going to help in anything

Didn't seem to be much of a problem this year.

 

[Evil Ash]

Didn't seem to be much of a problem this year.

We got lucky this year (our front office has admitted as much) and I don't want to take a risk for the sake of taking a risk.

Trade Marion when you HAVE to

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Unless we trade him to a team under the salary cap, we aren't freeing up squat.

I just hope we keep him for this upcoming year and then trade him if need be. Another massive roster makeover isn't going to help in anything

I agree, Marion isn't going anywhere.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

We got lucky this year (our front office has admitted as much) and I don't want to take a risk for the sake of taking a risk.

Trade Marion when you HAVE to

True stroy, the suns have done well in the past when trading and getting back quality for who are not useful to them anymore, Marion is not there yet.

To those who are worried we won't get value for him 2 years from now, trust me there are enough stupid GM's outthere who will still trade a lot for a 31 year old Marion.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm gonna suggest that Shawn feels underappreciated in phoenix for two reasons:

First, since he plays out of position, his defense is under appreciated by fans and by the NBA in general. If Shawn was only matched up against 2's and 3's he'd get more appreciation for his D, which I believe is in the top 15 in the league. Does any top defender have less help on defense than shawn? Certainly no piston or spur can say that.

Unfortunately, Marion couldn't really defend the 2 and 3s before this season. He'd jump on any head fake back then. It's strange, but after one season playing PF, he played SF most this season and got much better staying in front of the 2 and 3s. But he still can't defend the big 3s like Lewis and Anthony or the quick and strong 2/3s like Howard and Well.

 

[pokerface]

This whole Marion thing seems lame. Nobody quoted Marion...just some hoopshype rumor. Even if Marion were not happy he isnt unhappy enough to come out publicly and asked to be traded. Fact of the matter I seriously doubt he wants to be with another team. Marion has been with the Suns his whole career plus now we are on the verge of greatness...now he wants to book? Yeah sure...its going to take a lot more than some hoopshype blog to convince me of that!

We're in a win win situation the way I see it. Even if Marion wanted out (and we wanted to trade him) we would get decent value back with players and/or picks and we'd get out of a good portion of his big money salary enabling us to resign other players more easily. If Marion were to stay..the benefits are obvious...we keep our allstar who just came off a career year. Either way I could care less. I'd be happy with Diaw and more received talent off the trade...no biggie at all. I'd be happy to keep Marion as well.

We're in the drivers seat boyz....no worries!

 

[nowagimp]

Yes, I'll agree with you here. I'm going to backtrack a little here. It's easier for a defender to take risks and body up on offensive players when they know their are shot blockers behind them. Yes, but I never said that it doesn't help them at all to have the Wallace's and Duncan in the lane. Of course it does. I'm saying that those two players, especially Tayshaun Prince, are still better defenders overall than Shawn Marion. Now if you want to argue that those guys are better because they can put more focus on their defense (now on talking more about Bruce Bowen) I can buy that. I would counter by saying that they still played better defense.

Hell, I might even concede that if Shawn Marion was on San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan playing behind him AND he wasn't expected to contribute much on offense like Bruce Bowen he might be a better overall defender. But this leads me to the overall point of my other post.

Shawn Marion was an All-Star last year, yes? Was Bruce Bowen an All-Star? Shawn Marion made $15 million last season. Bruce Bowen made $3.4 million. There isn't a GM, fan, or player who thinks that Bruce Bowen is a better NBA player than Shawn Marion. How is he being overlooked or disrespected because people thought those guys played better defensively?




You are right. Shawn Marion did get more steals than Tayshaun Prince this year and in years past. Even without the help behind him he's probably still a more aggressive defender than prince... depending on the matchup. I also assume that he knocks the ball away from bigger slower players in the middle more often since prince spends more time on the perimeter.

Of course each defender we are talking about is going to match up better than others against particular players or player types. I think will we are talking about though is who is the better overall defender at his position. On those other teams Shawn Marion might be near as good as those guys or even as good in some cases. There are drawbacks to going to those other teams as well though. On each of those teams I doubt Shawn Marion crabs 12 rebounds per game. He probably does not score more than 15-16 points per game. It's questionable whether he is an All-Star on those teams.

Again, I like Shawn Marion's game. I really appreciate his effort, and what he brings. I just think that if he is the second-best player on your team, especially when it comes to the offense you are going to have problems. I'm not sure he's a maximum contract player, and if he is he needs to stop complaining about lack of respect. I just don't know what more he wants.

Whether it's because he had less help around him or not I think those other players deserved to be on the NBA defensive teams more than him. I do not think he was slighted. The people voting can only look at what these players actually did on defense. They are devoting on what they might have done on another team.

Anyhow, I'm dying to ask you a question. You've To send me a private message to let me know the origin of your name.

Joe

I actually agreed with you a lot more than you thought I would, didn't I?

I do agree with you about the salary and the expectations of marion, though I would prefer that the suns tried one more time with amare and KT. I like the speed of this suns team ,and without barbs and marion, they just arent that fast. I just love the way the suns speed kills big guys from other teams. Sometimes a synergy between players is more important than individual stats, both offensively and defensively. I think marions steals and rebounds tend to ignite other suns players, a synergystic effect. Alot of those steals are on the perimeter, playing the passing lanes. Not only is he a quick jumper, but he has a deceptively fast first step(w/o the ball), which contributes to his steals. The same is true of Bells and KT's defensive aggressiveness, it has a synergystic effect ont he others. This years suns team had a scary level of synergy that I've rarely seen.

 

[Covert Rain]

The clippers would be salivating at the prospect of the suns getting rid of Marion and KT. They just might get 25 offensive rebounds, and putbacks, against that suns team. With the presence of a healthy KT, the suns would have taken the clips AND the lakers in 5.

That is so true. In fact, there are about 30 NBA teams that are probably salivating at the mere thought of the Suns getting rid of Marion and Kurt.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fine, trade Marion for a young small forward and point guard. Re-sign Tim Thomas for a few years. Drop Kurt Thomas since he doesn't fit.

stronger for the future. We won't have to break the team up in 2 years.

Marion for Dunleavy and Monta Ellis?

Actually as a Warrior fan who'd love to dump Dunleavy on someone, I wouldn't trade Ellis. I'm not sure he has a position yet or ever but he's a hell of a young talent.

 

[nowagimp]

Marion for Dunleavy and Monta Ellis?

Actually as a Warrior fan who'd love to dump Dunleavy on someone, I wouldn't trade Ellis. I'm not sure he has a position yet or ever but he's a hell of a young talent.

Hey warrior fan, we'll trade you the 21st and 27th pick for Pietrius. Whats his pay anyway, he still on a rookie contract?

 

[nowagimp]

nowagimp, "All defensive players get beat off the dribble by good offensive players! Thats why shot blockers are so valuable, and help defenders(like Raja and shawn) are so important."

Shot blockers by themselves are not that valuable - you need good team defense to get the most out of them. Especially when the shot blocker is a C or PF, someone else on the team has to rotate to the man they leave to prevent an easy 'layoff' pass and to compete for the rebound.

I wouldn't say that Raja was a particularly good help defender - certainly not in helping out when a guard gets loose from his man. He's effective when he doubles but he seldom does that because he tends to guard people that can't be left alone.

I would say that James Jones is our best overall help defender - primarily because he's smart about choosing when and where to help. He's not much of a straight up defender though because he's easily pushed around and he isn't particularly quick.

Point taken, guarding Kobe or other top offensive players may not allow for much help on defense. I think that JR is a good help defender cause he uses alot of energy there, and because the pacers are/were a good help defense team. I think that Raja is a little better at helping on a quick penetrator as he targets the ball in that situation better than JR, where as JR tends to pick up a foul on a dribble penetration. But JR is just fantastic doubling on posted up larger players, easily the best on the team. And Yes Yes Yes, its the team defense, not the individual defender that ultimately determines defensive success, AND the way that any individual player can play on D(gamble for steals, aggressive contesting of shots etc.,).